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Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

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AKNel1
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Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by AKNel1 » 13 Feb 2009, 21:59

over 3 sets

& can he ever become #1 over 5 sets

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 13 Feb 2009, 22:00

Not for me

He's behind Nadal and Federer.

The 3 sets just reflects how seriously the other two take the minor comps and not the duration.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by delgenius » 14 Feb 2009, 02:12

AKNel1 wrote:over 3 sets

& can he ever become #1 over 5 sets
Watched him this week and he looks very ordinary, don't know if the Indoor courts suit him. I think he will struggle against Ancic in the semi. Not watched Nadal but notice he has dropped sets in his last 2 matches.

Agree with Groomyd, Nadal and Federer definitely raise their game in the Slams, Murray has yet to manage this.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 08:43

He might bore the opponent over 3 sets

There are three players who are consistently better than him

Number 4 at best

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Tricky Tree » 14 Feb 2009, 10:07

Judio wrote:He might bore the opponent over 3 sets

There are three players who are consistently better than him
He went into bore mode at the end against Verdasco, had hoped he'd stopped that. This is the same Verdasco who lost in over 5 hours in 5 sets to Nadal so Murray did ok really.

Murray has more guile and quality than almost any tennis player on the planet and no way can you say 3 are consistently better than him over 3 sets. For one, the stats immediatly disprove the claim!

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 10:12

He is now a very clear number 3 IMO

And he has the potential to push on from there.

The biggest difference at the moment is that quality which all the great players of any sport has and that is to raise their game to a higher level under pressure.

Nadal showed us again he can do that in the Aussie final: producing his best tennis by far when it mattered.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Tricky Tree » 14 Feb 2009, 13:58

delgenius wrote:I think he will struggle against Ancic in the semi.
Currently beating Ancic 6-1 4-0 :shock:

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 14:32

Groomyd wrote:He is now a very clear number 3 IMO
If Djokovic can get back to concentrating on his game
and stop chasing the celebrity dollar then I think
he is better than Murray which makes him 3 and Muggay 4

Remember they started off at the sme time and Djokovic broke through
quicker than Murray and almost caught Federer at Number 2
last month.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Tricky Tree » 14 Feb 2009, 14:40

Into another final, having a quite superb start to the year. Only beaten in 5 sets by a vastly improved Verdasco in Aus Open. The same player who very nearly beat Nadal. He knows his weaknesses and he works on them.

Yet people still enjoy to critisice.

AK said is he the best over 3 sets. When did Federer last beat him over 3 sets? I suppose that was just because fed isn't really bothered about those events....rubbish. Fed and nadal are currently a class apart in the slams because they can raise their games when it matters most. That does not mean they just go through the motions in other events.

If people dislike him so much why do they watch him and then post negative posts on him. There are lots more channels to watch or subjects to post on :wink:

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 15:55

Tricky Tree wrote:If people dislike him so much why do they watch him and then post negative posts on him. There are lots more channels to watch or subjects to post on :wink:
I dont watch him :wink:

I enjoy watching tennis and support a number of players APART from Murray

I dislike the love in that the Sky and BBC team have for him

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by AKNel1 » 14 Feb 2009, 15:56

Groomyd wrote:Not for me

He's behind Nadal and Federer.

The 3 sets just reflects how seriously the other two take the minor comps and not the duration.
So, at present in the minor tournaments (over 3 sets) Murray is the better player & therefore the #1 player over 3 sets.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 15:59

At the end of the day nobody is going to remember who won minor ATP events

If you don't do well in the Grand Slam events you
cannot be considered a great player

Djokovic has won 1
Nadal has won 6
Federer has won 13

Until Murray wins one he cannot be considered to be as good
as the other three

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 16:01

AKNel1 wrote:So, at present in the minor tournaments (over 3 sets) Murray is the better player & therefore the #1 player over 3 sets.
Cilic of Croatia has won most events over 3 sets this season (so far)
so he must be the best player :wink:

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by AKNel1 » 14 Feb 2009, 16:06

Judio wrote:At the end of the day nobody is going to remember who won minor ATP events

If you don't do well in the Grand Slam events you
cannot be considered a great player

Djokovic has won 1
Nadal has won 6
Federer has won 13

Until Murray wins one he cannot be considered to be as good
as the other three
I agree over 5 sets he's #4, at best #3. That was not the question though.

The second part of the question was whether Murray will ever be able to transfer his 3 set form to 5 sets.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by AKNel1 » 14 Feb 2009, 16:11

Judio wrote:
AKNel1 wrote:So, at present in the minor tournaments (over 3 sets) Murray is the better player & therefore the #1 player over 3 sets.
Cilic of Croatia has won most events over 3 sets this season (so far)
so he must be the best player :wink:
How many of those tournaments did Murray play in ??? What is Murray's record in 3 set Tournaments over the last 3 months.

Your argument is like saying Man United are rubbish at Cup comps because they have not won the FA Vase

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 16:47

AKNel1 wrote: So, at present in the minor tournaments (over 3 sets) Murray is the better player & therefore the #1 player over 3 sets.
No it doesn't! Nadal and Federer are the better players!

It shows what i said it shows!

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 17:43

AKNel1 wrote:Your argument is like saying Man United are rubbish at Cup comps because they have not won the FA Vase
The only true comparison is in a Masters Series (now ATP 1000)
or Grand Slam event

At these events ALL the top players play

In these other events Murray or Cilic might win
but they do not have to play the Top players round after round

In fact Murray has made the final this week without
playing ONE Top 30 player

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 17:55

Judio wrote: In fact Murray has made the final this week without
playing ONE Top 30 player
Such is tennis

Such is any seeded knock out comp

Murray is a notch below the Big Two at the moment and there are a number of very good players about that are quite capable of beating him.

But apart from you not liking him there is no reason to think he is not a legitimate number 3 at the moment! :wink:

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 17:58

Judio wrote:
AKNel1 wrote:Your argument is like saying Man United are rubbish at Cup comps because they have not won the FA Vase
The only true comparison is in a Masters Series (now ATP 1000)
or Grand Slam event

At these events ALL the top players play

In these other events Murray or Cilic might win
but they do not have to play the Top players round after round

In fact Murray has made the final this week without
playing ONE Top 30 player
Murray has won two ATP 1000 (in the current rankings) to Cillic's none and Federer,s none (Nadal: 3, Djokovic: 2)
Nadal and Djokovich both have better current ATP1000 rankings than Murray

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 18:00

Groomyd wrote:
Judio wrote: In fact Murray has made the final this week without
playing ONE Top 30 player
Such is tennis

Such is any seeded knock out comp

Murray is a notch below the Big Two at the moment and there are a number of very good players about that are quite capable of beating him.

But apart from you not liking him there is no reason to think he is not a legitimate number 3 at the moment! :wink:
Apart from the fact that he's number 4 which gives the guy above him a reason to think that he is a legitimate number 3.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 19:31

Apart from the way the rankings are calculated. I said "at the moment" and the rankings don't measure that.

That is why he'll be third very soon when the rankings catch up with the real time reality.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 19:57

Groomyd wrote:Apart from the way the rankings are calculated. I said "at the moment" and the rankings don't measure that.

That is why he'll be third very soon when the rankings catch up with the real time reality.
They're updated every week, the last update (9th Feb.) included all ranking tournaments up to that date. You can hardly say they're lagging much.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 19:59

And the time period they reflect? :wink:

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 20:04

Groomyd wrote:And the time period they reflect? :wink:
The past year

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Judio » 14 Feb 2009, 21:07

Nadal v Murray in final

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 21:15

sorbiegunner wrote:
Groomyd wrote:And the time period they reflect? :wink:
The past year
Which is where you start arguing against yourself :wink:

At the moment (not over the last year) Murray is a clear 3rd in the world and a long way ahead of 4th

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by AKNel1 » 14 Feb 2009, 21:25

Groomyd wrote:
sorbiegunner wrote:
Groomyd wrote:And the time period they reflect? :wink:
The past year
Which is where you start arguing against yourself :wink:

At the moment (not over the last year) Murray is a clear 3rd in the world and a long way ahead of 4th

So, using your argument if Murray wins tomorrow he's #1

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 21:34

Groomyd wrote:
sorbiegunner wrote:
Groomyd wrote:And the time period they reflect? :wink:
The past year
Which is where you start arguing against yourself :wink:

At the moment (not over the last year) Murray is a clear 3rd in the world and a long way ahead of 4th
That's a ridiculous stance to adopt. The reason the rankings are based on performance over a period of time is to take account of glitches of form, luck etc.. And who is to say that those above him won't have earned more points to compensate for the ones due to drop off.

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by Groomyd » 14 Feb 2009, 21:37

Response to AK:

Nope!

That would your silly suggestion about my argument! :wink:

However, my argument is of course that a ranking system which tracks the last 12 months fails to take into account current form. A player could be shite just now but who played well last summer and of course the other way round.

Since the US Open Murray has been a bit good and in 6 months time this will be reflected in the official rankings.

But IMO just now there are only 2 players in the world who would be favourates to beat him.

And the bookies would agree 8-)

To Sorbie: At the moment

This is hardly virgin territory is it? It comes up all the time in golf especially! Ryder Cup picks being a particular case in point

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Re: Is Andy Murray now the Worlds number 1....

Post by sorbiegunner » 14 Feb 2009, 21:47

Groomyd wrote:Response to AK:

Nope!

That would your silly suggestion about my argument! :wink:

However, my argument is of course that a ranking system which tracks the last 12 months fails to take into account current form. A player could be shite just now but who played well last summer and of course the other way round.

Since the US Open Murray has been a bit good and in 6 months time this will be reflected in the official rankings.

But IMO just now there are only 2 players in the world who would be favourates to beat him.

And the bookies would agree 8-)

To Sorbie: At the moment

This is hardly virgin territory is it? It comes up all the time in golf especially! Ryder Cup picks being a particular case in point
The bookies make their odds to minimise their risks, because Murray is a British player and the bookies whose odds you are likely to notice will be British bookies, the odds will reflect a national bias.
So whether you like them or not the rankings are a much more accurate method of rating players than your stated preferred method of using bookies odds.

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