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Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

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Darbyand
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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by Darbyand »

Darbyand wrote: 09 Sep 2020, 13:25 Let's have a few predictions for United this season. I'm feeling a lot more positive than last season even though my pre season prediction of 4th stays the same. I think we'll get more points, win more games, score more goals etc. It's a sad state of affairs when that feels like the limit of a club like United's ambitions but there it is. You set your expectations accordingly and I enjoyed the post Bruno signing run. Criminal he wasn't added last summer.
Time for a season wrap-up then mothball this thread?

I posted the above last September and the comparable records were

3 Manchester United 38 18 12 8 66 36 +30 66 2019/20
2 Manchester United 38 21 11 6 73 44 +29 74 2020/21

So all in all, improvements across the board apart from the defence with some mitigation for conceding 10 in the first 3 games when they were horribly undercooked. Where would they be without Bruno who was responsible for most good things in (4 months of) 2019/20 and the season just gone? I dread to think.

HOWEVER...last Wednesday was huge for how the season will be judged and it was a major damp squib. Emery is a good coach who was easily able to put a straightjacket around United's tactics with a deep block(s). And that weakness will remain until they get more strength in depth and creativity. A genuine right sided player who can contribute goals and assists has been missing for several seasons, it'll be criminal if they don't go for Sancho this summer. I've lost count of how many goals they've conceded from set pieces and a long-term partner for Maguire is a must. After that it's probably an upgrade on McFred, particularly Fred, and I'd be surprised if more than 3 come in.

As for Ole...as I said earlier this week he's going nowhere. Whether he should be...a surprising amount of clubs have tried this inexperienced club legend route with results varying from the spectacular (Guardiola at Barca, Zidane) to the flops (Lampard, Pirlo). Ole is muddling along somewhere in between, very obviously learning on the job. As long as he keeps delivering top 4 with the current owners the experiment will continue.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by forestfan »

Was Lampard doing any worse really? Under the Glazers he’d have got a bit longer, whereas under Abramovich Ole would be long gone (though you’d have won the CL under his replacement) ;)

Pirlo, on the other hand, did manage to finish fourth in a one-horse race.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by Darbyand »

This was the table on the day Lampard was sacked. Top 4 was looking bleak with them on a bad losing run but you're probably right the Glazers would wait until it was mathematically certain.

Image

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by eastcentral1 »

OGS has had a few transfer windows now, so does he not have to take some responsibility for the issues with the squad? Presumably he has some say over the recruitment requirements.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by hancockjr »

Darbyand wrote: 30 May 2021, 10:58
HOWEVER...last Wednesday was huge for how the season will be judged and it was a major damp squib. Emery is a good coach who was easily able to put a straightjacket around United's tactics with a deep block(s). And that weakness will remain until they get more strength in depth and creativity. A genuine right sided player who can contribute goals and assists has been missing for several seasons, it'll be criminal if they don't go for Sancho this summer. I've lost count of how many goals they've conceded from set pieces and a long-term partner for Maguire is a must. After that it's probably an upgrade on McFred, particularly Fred, and I'd be surprised if more than 3 come in.

As for Ole...as I said earlier this week he's going nowhere.
Interesting that even in the same paragraph that acknowledges the difference better coaching/managing can bring, still the only suggested solution is to buy yet more players, over and above the huge amounts spent already (net spend over 5 years up there with City, and way ahead of everyone else?). Even if the argument is that they've bought badly, well the same people will be doing the buying again.

The answer to conceding at set pieces, for instance, isn't to buy another centre back, it's to coach them better. If Ole can't do it, and isn't going anywhere, surely the "ask" from a supporter's point of view is for a defensive coach to assist Ole?

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

The problem with using the EL Final as any kind of benchmark is:
1, Ole needlessly ran the 1st XI into the ground in the last however many Prem matches;
and
2, starting a Pen Shootout with a GK who had conceded from the last 30 odd Penalties is borderline Gross Misconduct.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by Darbyand »

hancockjr wrote: 30 May 2021, 14:45
Interesting that even in the same paragraph that acknowledges the difference better coaching/managing can bring, still the only suggested solution is to buy yet more players, over and above the huge amounts spent already (net spend over 5 years up there with City, and way ahead of everyone else?). Even if the argument is that they've bought badly, well the same people will be doing the buying again.

The answer to conceding at set pieces, for instance, isn't to buy another centre back, it's to coach them better. If Ole can't do it, and isn't going anywhere, surely the "ask" from a supporter's point of view is for a defensive coach to assist Ole?
So teams shouldn't look to address weaknesses by bringing in new players, just improve what you've got? Perhaps Klopp should have done that for your boys with Karius and Lovren instead of Alisson and VvD? I'm not sure they'd have made the step up.

We've done United spending a million times..the Glazers buy high, sell low; stockpile mediocrity; panic buy outside the top 4, turn off the tap when things are good. I very much doubt you think the answers to United bridging the gap are in the current squad.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by hancockjr »

Darbyand wrote: 30 May 2021, 15:57
hancockjr wrote: 30 May 2021, 14:45
Interesting that even in the same paragraph that acknowledges the difference better coaching/managing can bring, still the only suggested solution is to buy yet more players, over and above the huge amounts spent already (net spend over 5 years up there with City, and way ahead of everyone else?). Even if the argument is that they've bought badly, well the same people will be doing the buying again.

The answer to conceding at set pieces, for instance, isn't to buy another centre back, it's to coach them better. If Ole can't do it, and isn't going anywhere, surely the "ask" from a supporter's point of view is for a defensive coach to assist Ole?
So teams shouldn't look to address weaknesses by bringing in new players, just improve what you've got? Perhaps Klopp should have done that for your boys with Karius and Lovren instead of Alisson and VvD? I'm not sure they'd have made the step up.

We've done United spending a million times..the Glazers buy high, sell low; stockpile mediocrity; panic buy outside the top 4, turn off the tap when things are good. I very much doubt you think the answers to United bridging the gap are in the current squad.
Yes of course they can, but it shouldn't be plan A, B and C. Klopp made plenty of use of what he had, including improving them, and also sold to buy those players.

More importantly though I think the desires of fans need to be backed by a coherent and consistent premise.

If the premise is that Ole isn't going anywhere, because he's cheap, toes the line and (as you allude to below) top 4 is good enough, I can't see the very same owners shelling out on all those players at once. Sancho is a push, but a centre back who's a clear upgrade on Lindelof, plus a DCM of the same quality - really?

In actual fact I personally think United's squad is not the biggest problem, and it doesn't matter as the Glazers won't spend to mend it. The first team has weaknesses but so do most others, and the reserves are absolutely of the quality of other clubs (citing Lingard, again, must have been about 20th choice?) they're just being mis-managed.

I think the Champions League and Europa League finals have both shown the differences a good manager makes, and even though Ole has exceeded what I thought he was capable of (at least he hasn't done stupid things pro-actively) he still seems woefully short of actually adding any value (maybe a comment on how low my expectations were).

Incidentally, lots of interest in Lukaku. Always said it was a mistake to let him go, seems that was the case and just maybe the answer was to manage him better and improve him as a player.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

It wasn't a mistake to let him go. He wasn't doing it at United and found his flat track bully level in the Farmers league.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »


hancockjr wrote:
Darbyand wrote: 30 May 2021, 10:58
HOWEVER...last Wednesday was huge for how the season will be judged and it was a major damp squib. Emery is a good coach who was easily able to put a straightjacket around United's tactics with a deep block(s). And that weakness will remain until they get more strength in depth and creativity. A genuine right sided player who can contribute goals and assists has been missing for several seasons, it'll be criminal if they don't go for Sancho this summer. I've lost count of how many goals they've conceded from set pieces and a long-term partner for Maguire is a must. After that it's probably an upgrade on McFred, particularly Fred, and I'd be surprised if more than 3 come in.

As for Ole...as I said earlier this week he's going nowhere.
Interesting that even in the same paragraph that acknowledges the difference better coaching/managing can bring, still the only suggested solution is to buy yet more players, over and above the huge amounts spent already (net spend over 5 years up there with City, and way ahead of everyone else?). Even if the argument is that they've bought badly, well the same people will be doing the buying again.

The answer to conceding at set pieces, for instance, isn't to buy another centre back, it's to coach them better. If Ole can't do it, and isn't going anywhere, surely the "ask" from a supporter's point of view is for a defensive coach to assist Ole?
Groundhog day again Image

Pep Guardiola, arguably the best coach on the planet right now, has spent £850m on new players to get the team he wants (with plans to spend big again over the summer). This includes replacing his own signings that didn't work out in certain positions (remember Clownio Bravo for example and god knows how many full backs?).

Klopp has spent £480m getting the players he wants.

Utd has spent £300m while Ole has been there (I say it this way as it is clear now Ole can merely suggest targets but doesn't have final say on the players signed).

Last edited by thebillfella on 02 Jun 2021, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by murf »

thebillfella wrote:It wasn't a mistake to let him go. He wasn't doing it at United and found his flat track bully level in the Farmers league.
90% of United's games are against teams equivalent to the Italian Farmers League... bullying them provides momentum for harder games.

PS Klopp's 480m is a) over a longer period than Ole's 300m and b) complete b****** as it is all about nett spend as Klopp's is very low thanks to reluctantly selling decent players like Coutinho.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

No it's not. The same circlical arguments yet again (go back in the thread for the counter arguments as I can't be bothered) that don't stand up to scrutiny - groundhog day again

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

eastcentral1 wrote:OGS has had a few transfer windows now, so does he not have to take some responsibility for the issues with the squad? Presumably he has some say over the recruitment requirements.
He gets the opportunity to suggest targets - that's it. Matt Judge and now John Murdoch leads a recruitment team that makes the final decision.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

Darbyand wrote:
Darbyand wrote: 09 Sep 2020, 13:25 Let's have a few predictions for United this season. I'm feeling a lot more positive than last season even though my pre season prediction of 4th stays the same. I think we'll get more points, win more games, score more goals etc. It's a sad state of affairs when that feels like the limit of a club like United's ambitions but there it is. You set your expectations accordingly and I enjoyed the post Bruno signing run. Criminal he wasn't added last summer.
Time for a season wrap-up then mothball this thread?

I posted the above last September and the comparable records were

3 Manchester United 38 18 12 8 66 36 +30 66 2019/20
2 Manchester United 38 21 11 6 73 44 +29 74 2020/21

So all in all, improvements across the board apart from the defence with some mitigation for conceding 10 in the first 3 games when they were horribly undercooked. Where would they be without Bruno who was responsible for most good things in (4 months of) 2019/20 and the season just gone? I dread to think.

HOWEVER...last Wednesday was huge for how the season will be judged and it was a major damp squib. Emery is a good coach who was easily able to put a straightjacket around United's tactics with a deep block(s). And that weakness will remain until they get more strength in depth and creativity. A genuine right sided player who can contribute goals and assists has been missing for several seasons, it'll be criminal if they don't go for Sancho this summer. I've lost count of how many goals they've conceded from set pieces and a long-term partner for Maguire is a must. After that it's probably an upgrade on McFred, particularly Fred, and I'd be surprised if more than 3 come in.

As for Ole...as I said earlier this week he's going nowhere. Whether he should be...a surprising amount of clubs have tried this inexperienced club legend route with results varying from the spectacular (Guardiola at Barca, Zidane) to the flops (Lampard, Pirlo). Ole is muddling along somewhere in between, very obviously learning on the job. As long as he keeps delivering top 4 with the current owners the experiment will continue.
Yep, totally agree with all of this.

I think Ole has now had time to put the foundations in place to start challenging again and next season he needs to win trophies to justify remaining.

But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and it's clear that other that the first XI he doesn't have much faith in what he has on the bench.

And I have to say when I looked at the bench on Wednesday I tended to agree; I really didn't see anything that I felt we could bring on that could make a difference against the two buses Villareal had parked.

Further always easy to say get rid but replace him with who (who you could guarantee would be a significant improvement rather than another punt or more of the same?)? There aren't lots of Peps around at the moment.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

So.... ignoring consistency ie not making too many changes, who do you keep from the current lot?

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

Most of the first team are fine - add the 3/4 top players we've been saying for years now that are needed as Darbyand eludes to and they are there challenging, with some of current first team becoming the stronger bench. Then promote the rest from within as we have always done - some excellent potential coming through now.

Clear out the remaining deadwood and high profile distractions we've also been saying for years now need to be ousted to get a more robust camp.

And clear out the glazers!

Those to go:
De Gea (still a very good goalie but time to cash in and move on)
Pogba (take Raiola with him)
Jones (why is he still here?)
Bailly (too injury prone)
Dalot (not up to it)
Matic (too old and laboured now)
Lingard (cash in and make space for youth)
Pereira (cash in and make space for youth)
Martial (cash in and make space for youth)


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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

I think Matic is a decent hold for experience on the bench...

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by forestfan »

Is it experienced holding midfielders they need on the bench, or game-changing attacking players? Depends on the cost of hanging onto him I suppose.

One of the issues United perhaps have is that momentum stalled for them towards the end of the season whereas it built for Liverpool and Chelsea, so they’re perhaps fourth favourites for next season right now despite finishing second. So it does feel like they need to make a splash in the transfer market.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

blahblah wrote:I think Matic is a decent hold for experience on the bench...
Would prefer to leave the space for James Garner to get a chance - maybe FF can let us know how he's been looking at Forest?

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

Isn't he more of an attacker?

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

Nah, midfielder with a bit more mobility than Matic!

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by forestfan »

Seems to have made a good impression anyway, a lot wishing we could hold onto him.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

thebillfella wrote: 02 Jun 2021, 17:43 Nah, midfielder with a bit more mobility than Matic!
I seem to remember him scoring in a preseason...

Hopefully we can be mature and not start listing things with more mobility than Matic 😉😂

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by forestfan »

Yeah, sure nobody would be immature enough to suggest something like... that oil tanker that blocked the Suez Canal for a week? ;)

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by blahblah »

forestfan wrote: 02 Jun 2021, 18:07 Yeah, sure nobody would be immature enough to suggest something like... that oil tanker that blocked the Suez Canal for a week? ;)
I think you will find that was Tony Adams. :lol:

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by Bob Newhart »

forestfan wrote: 02 Jun 2021, 18:07Yeah, sure nobody would be immature enough to suggest something like... that oil tanker that blocked the Suez Canal for a week? ;)
I'd rather have the Captain of that vessel in our midfield than Pogba.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by Darbyand »

There's talk of him running down his contract next season and going on a free Summer 22. Might be hard to tell the difference short of him standing still for 90 mins.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

And true to form, the enigma that is Paul Pogba shows again what he is capable of for France - what a thoroughly frustrating player. At least if we do sell him this summer his value should be going up a bit as the tournament progresses.

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by CptPugwash »

thebillfella wrote: 23 Jun 2021, 22:20 And true to form, the class act that is Paul Pogba shows again what he is capable of for France - what a thoroughly frustrating team Man Utd must be to play for. At least if we do sell him this summer his value should be going up a bit as the tournament progresses.
corrected for accuracy

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Re: Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2020/21

Post by thebillfella »

Ha! Must be a nightmare for him only having Bruno, Rashford and Cavani ahead of him up the pitch to work with!

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