Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2022/23 - the Erik ten Hag era

[Mav3rick]

Ole might not have been the only problem, because his style of management probably just fit the players expectations (or more accurately their willingness to work) better - that kind of go out and play, kiss the badge, express yourselves thing with no particular tactical responsibility or plan, no bollocking when the stop running.

He was a maintainer, and should have been the stop gap to ETH while signings were made over a window or two with him in mind to give him a platform to launch from.

The problems Ole had (inability to make a difference, tactically naive, no particular long term vision) would have just caused a different set of issues now (if not the player mutiny that his successor saw), he may have been able to get a better tune in the short term by evoking the SAF era stuff, but he wouldn't have been able to build a team or be strong with the board and the mismatch of playing staff would have just gotten worse and worse the longer he stayed. Plus the absolutely relentless across the board mocking from away fans just show how little respect he had as a manager outside the club, that alone would have been detrimental to recruitment over the longer term.

There's probably a balance to be had though. Can an opinionated manager with a strong plan really come in and expect what 8 first team signings? And if he did would it not be an absolute nightmare building a team out of such a state of flux in a matter of weeks?

Equally, should a board really be stuck in such a middling state, not fully backing the manager, but also getting him sort or half way there with some signings he wants, mixed up with a disjointed and mutinous set of existing players, which is just gonna make his job harder and (if there's another managerial change) the next mans even harder still?

From the outside it doesn't look like the manager has been realistic (or he was massively over promised what would be done to help him impose his vision in the club and the playing staff) and the board looks absolutely directionless, trapped half way between commercial interests and the managers wants and needs.

Is this is supposed to be the Liverpool/City approach where the manager is inately tied to the ethos of the club the whole way down, or is it a Chelsea type setup where the manager is expected to get the best out of the players he's given?

Either way though surely at some point you'd, as a professional coach, have to fit the system to what you have, rather than force players who can't do what you want, to do it badly.

I have sympathy for the fans (not a lot as the 90s/2000s were painful) but I don't think there's any single person across the management, board, owners or playing staff who is blameless for what's transpired so far.

[eastcentral1]

For that game, they need to defend the 18 yard line, forget about playing it out from the back and try, somehow, to use their pace on the break. Oleball June 2020. I'm guessing EtH is a bit more stubborn than that.

Don't forget the narrative that Ole was out of his depth Darbyand - he was only able to take these players to 2nd and 3rd plus Europa final!!!

It's only after you see how these players performed for Ralf and now EtH (and Jose before) that those adamant that Ole was the problem here realise that actually he probably wasn't the main problem after all (although the reality is that they are too stubborn to ever accept that).

for the hundreth time, we weren't saying that ole was the main problem. obviously the problems at man utd run deeper. but that doesn't change the fact that ole was sh*t manager who should never have been given the job. ole was a symptom of the terrible way the club is being run.

[hancockjr]

Mav - that's a thoughtful, considered and (IMO) accurate post. Could a mod move it to the appropriate thread, as such posts have not proved welcome on this one.

EC - agreed, though maybe an underestimate.

[Darbyand]

In conclusion. Starting in 2005 and accelerating from 2013, most people involved with Manchester United have been unsuitable and/or poor at their jobs.

[blahblah]

In conclusion. Starting in 2005 and accelerating from 2013, most people involved with Manchester United have been unsuitable and/or poor at their jobs.

Quite probably. I'm sure it was going wrong before SAF finally retired, and I don't know enough about it to consider SAF's first retirement as a landmark/watershed.

[blahblah]

As I've posted before: one of the great unwritten sports' book is the Decline and Rise of Liverpool FC as it would provide a great benchmark for MU. Obviously that greatness could be threatened by the MUFC version.

I'm not sure that I remember a time like this with Lpool ie the wheels appear to be coming off.......

[forestfan]

Maybe Hodgson’s half-season? And off the field, the Gillett-Hicks fallout and resulting financial jeopardy (was that around the same time?) And think they were briefly bottom six in one Souness season (post-Christmas) before recovering.

But yeah, in terms of abject performances like Saturday it’s hard to find a parallel.

[Magic]

Gillett-Hicks fallout.

Those were the days

[Mav3rick]

Arsenals early days under Arteta were similar? Lots of clashes with the "personalities" in the squad, bad results, fan unrest, bottom of the league for a short time.

They backed Arteta all the way though, got rid of players he felt were disruptive/didn't want without much consideration of the "asset value", maybe now that project is through winter and into the green shoots of spring. It needn't take more than a year or 18 months to turn Man Utd around completely, but I guess its a question of what's more important in the short & medium term - commercial success now or a financially painful, perhaps even risky, rebuild toward on field success.

That's probably the place where the owners take responsibility as you assume that their appointments and thus top level club ethos is directed more at the former.

[blahblah]

More sensible words imho

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... s-24752803

[blahblah]

Arsenals early days under Arteta were similar? Lots of clashes with the "personalities" in the squad, bad results, fan unrest, bottom of the league for a short time.

They backed Arteta all the way though, got rid of players he felt were disruptive/didn't want without much consideration of the "asset value", maybe now that project is through winter and into the green shoots of spring. It needn't take more than a year or 18 months to turn Man Utd around completely, but I guess its a question of what's more important in the short & medium term - commercial success now or a financially painful, perhaps even risky, rebuild toward on field success.

That's probably the place where the owners take responsibility as you assume that their appointments and thus top level club ethos is directed more at the former.

Arteta is probably more like Ole as he is an ex player. Throw in a trophy and bringing through the kids and he has had a soft ride, but expectation should now be rising.....

[Jester]

Too early to hold Arsenal up as any kind of success story.

[Darbyand]

Neville's ratings of post 2013 transfers. Not sure how Maguire escapes a red.

[forestfan]

Bruno’s fast burning through any credit in the bank, as well. He and Sancho will be deadwood to shift soon, when they should be the foundation pieces of the next decade. Just shows how a toxic culture can bring absolutely everyone down.

[thebillfella]

Re. Garner… have we got another £15-£20m left to spend? You could have made that decision in June

Well indeed. Should have done all our business in June in both directions so the focus can be on improving on the training ground rather than scraping the barrel for who still might move now on the cheap.

EtH's fault no doubt

Depends if his list of players was attainable and affordable with only £100m, which isn't much nowadays.

Whether 10H is trying to force his style and system on players incapable of playing it is a relevant question after few matches, imho.

Having watched the preseason, people who think it went well should go back and watch it again.

Depends if his list of players was attainable and affordable with only £100m, which isn't much nowadays.

Whether 10H is trying to force his style and system on players incapable of playing it is a relevant question after few matches, imho.

Having watched the preseason, people who think it went well should go back and watch it again.

Yes fair point, but Ole got lambasted but playing the deeper quick counter football best suited to the players at his disposal (the Ole-ball reference earlier).

When he got Varane and started trying to play the higher line high press game he wanted to play the remaining players (centre mids and full backs especially) weren't up to the task - rather than acknowledge and change personnel through the transfer window he was left to make do, the players downed tools and he took the fall. You can't win (not with these players anyway).

The board haven't learned from thus and here we are again.

[thebillfella]

Very few thought Ole was the main problem.

Oh, many did FF.

[thebillfella]

Per previously, Ten Hag seems to have exactly the wrong skill set given the situation (where key requirements are ability to "manage up" , and (especially if you can't do that) getting the most out of players you wouldn't necessarily want yourself).

You know far more than me if you know he doesn't have the right skill set. How many seasons have you been studying his approach for?

[forestfan]

Re. Garner… have we got another £15-£20m left to spend? You could have made that decision in June

Well indeed. Should have done all our business in June in both directions so the focus can be on improving on the training ground rather than scraping the barrel for who still might move now on the cheap.

EtH's fault no doubt

Depends if his list of players was attainable and affordable with only £100m, which isn't much nowadays.

Yeah, it only covers the summer spending of a newly promoted club, or a winter energy bill, or something like that…

If Trussonomics backfires bigly, we might see it printed on a banknote in a few years’ time.

[thebillfella]

Ole might not have been the only problem, because his style of management probably just fit the players expectations (or more accurately their willingness to work) better - that kind of go out and play, kiss the badge, express yourselves thing with no particular tactical responsibility or plan, no bollocking when the stop running.

He was a maintainer, and should have been the stop gap to ETH while signings were made over a window or two with him in mind to give him a platform to launch from.

The problems Ole had (inability to make a difference, tactically naive, no particular long term vision) would have just caused a different set of issues now (if not the player mutiny that his successor saw), he may have been able to get a better tune in the short term by evoking the SAF era stuff, but he wouldn't have been able to build a team or be strong with the board and the mismatch of playing staff would have just gotten worse and worse the longer he stayed. Plus the absolutely relentless across the board mocking from away fans just show how little respect he had as a manager outside the club, that alone would have been detrimental to recruitment over the longer term.

There's probably a balance to be had though. Can an opinionated manager with a strong plan really come in and expect what 8 first team signings? And if he did would it not be an absolute nightmare building a team out of such a state of flux in a matter of weeks?

Equally, should a board really be stuck in such a middling state, not fully backing the manager, but also getting him sort or half way there with some signings he wants, mixed up with a disjointed and mutinous set of existing players, which is just gonna make his job harder and (if there's another managerial change) the next mans even harder still?

From the outside it doesn't look like the manager has been realistic (or he was massively over promised what would be done to help him impose his vision in the club and the playing staff) and the board looks absolutely directionless, trapped half way between commercial interests and the managers wants and needs.

Is this is supposed to be the Liverpool/City approach where the manager is inately tied to the ethos of the club the whole way down, or is it a Chelsea type setup where the manager is expected to get the best out of the players he's given?

Either way though surely at some point you'd, as a professional coach, have to fit the system to what you have, rather than force players who can't do what you want, to do it badly.

I have sympathy for the fans (not a lot as the 90s/2000s were painful) but I don't think there's any single person across the management, board, owners or playing staff who is blameless for what's transpired so far.

Don't disagree with any of that

[thebillfella]

For that game, they need to defend the 18 yard line, forget about playing it out from the back and try, somehow, to use their pace on the break. Oleball June 2020. I'm guessing EtH is a bit more stubborn than that.

Don't forget the narrative that Ole was out of his depth Darbyand - he was only able to take these players to 2nd and 3rd plus Europa final!!!

It's only after you see how these players performed for Ralf and now EtH (and Jose before) that those adamant that Ole was the problem here realise that actually he probably wasn't the main problem after all (although the reality is that they are too stubborn to ever accept that).

for the hundreth time, we weren't saying that ole was the main problem. obviously the problems at man utd run deeper. but that doesn't change the fact that ole was sh*t manager who should never have been given the job. ole was a symptom of the terrible way the club is being run.

Many were ec1 - to the point where any suggestion that the problem ran much deeper than him alone was ridiculed or vehemently disagreed with. The same people may be changing their tune now but much like the North in Game of Thrones I don't forget!!! (And the evidence is there for all to see in the previous threads).

[thebillfella]

Mav - that's a thoughtful, considered and (IMO) accurate post. Could a mod move it to the appropriate thread, as such posts have not proved welcome on this one.

EC - agreed, though maybe an underestimate.

Then start making thoughtful, considered and accurate posts then!!!

[thebillfella]

In conclusion. Starting in 2005 and accelerating from 2013, most people involved with Manchester United have been unsuitable and/or poor at their jobs.

Quite probably. I'm sure it was going wrong before SAF finally retired, and I don't know enough about it to consider SAF's first retirement as a landmark/watershed.

All in here blah if you can be bothered to read it

https://www.sportbible.com/utddistrict/ ... w-20220812

[thebillfella]

Arsenals early days under Arteta were similar? Lots of clashes with the "personalities" in the squad, bad results, fan unrest, bottom of the league for a short time.

They backed Arteta all the way though, got rid of players he felt were disruptive/didn't want without much consideration of the "asset value", maybe now that project is through winter and into the green shoots of spring. It needn't take more than a year or 18 months to turn Man Utd around completely, but I guess its a question of what's more important in the short & medium term - commercial success now or a financially painful, perhaps even risky, rebuild toward on field success.

That's probably the place where the owners take responsibility as you assume that their appointments and thus top level club ethos is directed more at the former.

Remember the first 3 games of last season. Arsenal fan TV was in meltdown - they all wanted him out!

[thebillfella]

More sensible words imho

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... s-24752803

Yep, agree with all of that. This bit resonates in particular:

"It will be Ten Hag who pays the price if United have another disastrous campaign, rather than those who have failed in their roles for a far longer time but have become masters at passing the blame. All of United’s failures in recent years come under the same umbrella of the Glazer ownership, and until that changes, it is hard to see the club ever becoming a respectable force again."

[thebillfella]

Bruno’s fast burning through any credit in the bank, as well. He and Sancho will be deadwood to shift soon, when they should be the foundation pieces of the next decade. Just shows how a toxic culture can bring absolutely everyone down.

That's yet another concern of course. But Bruno and Sancho are two that I think deserve not to be tarnished in the same way - they just need /deserve better and more determined /committed players around them.

[Darbyand]

There's probably a balance to be had though. Can an opinionated manager with a strong plan really come in and expect what 8 first team signings? And if he did would it not be an absolute nightmare building a team out of such a state of flux in a matter of weeks?

It's probably what's required though and closest to Raoul's burn it all down and start again US style suggestion. It's not what a stable trophy hunting club would do but United aren't. What would help would be selling some highly paid players but as usual they've let a load of players run down their contracts and got one sub10m fee for Pereira. It'll definitely be interesting to see how Cooper at Forest plots his way through the next few weeks and months with such an influx.

Seeing as we're doing Ole yet again I'm going to upset Bill and say that the Ronaldo signing was a disaster for Ole. He clearly didn't have the strength of personality to turn down the signing which was counter to what he was trying to do, manage the player once it had been done and make (grudging) tactical tweaks a la Ancelotti. And it would appear to have shattered whatever air of authority he had. If they'd signed a decent midfielder and a young pacy striker summer 21 it could have been a very different story even though I share ec1's view that he was out of his depth in the bigger picture.

Same shopping list this summer of course.

[forestfan]

Bruno’s fast burning through any credit in the bank, as well. He and Sancho will be deadwood to shift soon, when they should be the foundation pieces of the next decade. Just shows how a toxic culture can bring absolutely everyone down.

That's yet another concern of course. But Bruno and Sancho are two that I think deserve not to be tarnished in the same way - they just need /deserve better and more determined /committed players around them.

Won’t take much more for them to be damaged goods though, their confidence shot, fans turning on them and them being desperate to get out to salvage their careers just like others.

Of course, there’s the unique mid-season concern over World Cup places for those potentially involved.

[Moon Knight]

Good Twitter thread on the Glazers reign here…

https://twitter.com/swissramble/status/ ... bmSos4gvqw

And the first guy commenting seems very familiar.

[thebillfella]

Seeing as we're doing Ole yet again I'm going to upset Bill and say that the Ronaldo signing was a disaster for Ole. He clearly didn't have the strength of personality to turn down the signing which was counter to what he was trying to do, manage the player once it had been done and make (grudging) tactical tweaks a la Ancelotti. And it would appear to have shattered whatever air of authority he had. If they'd signed a decent midfielder and a young pacy striker summer 21 it could have been a very different story even though I share ec1's view that he was out of his depth in the bigger picture.

Same shopping list this summer of course.

No upset, totally get that. I guess my POV is that we needed a top goalscorer and he ticked the box; unfortunately the majority of the other players he was joining weren't up to the level needed to match his ability and be able to start challenging again.

So I guess no surprise that he started calling out the imposters in the dressing room which has caused further divide. And lets be honest he is right (albeit that if not delivered in the right way can be detrimental to dressing room harmony)!

[thebillfella]

Good Twitter thread on the Glazers reign here…

https://twitter.com/swissramble/status/ ... bmSos4gvqw

And the first guy commenting seems very familiar.

Yes, read that earlier. An excellent assessment of the shocking running of the club finances by the American parasites but as a United fan I'm not sure if I would call it a GOOD read!!!