What's it all about?

[murf]

It's a shame people are so blinkered over this. Nothing quite riles some as much as the I country.

So you do think BLM is a left wing conspiracy etc to take power?

Read up on the BLM political party and they are exactly as stated and more, basically wanting to destroy capitalism.

The issue is that the players are protesting for something quite a bit different (the basic concept rather than the party that started it) but that is not sufficiently clear to some.

Whatever, rightly or wrongly, the taking of the knee has become divisive and so overall does more harm than good (IMO) and has therefore outlasted its genuine and good intentions.

[blahblah]

It's a shame people are so blinkered over this. Nothing quite riles some as much as the I country.

So you do think BLM is a left wing conspiracy etc to take power?

Read up on the BLM political party and they are exactly as stated and more, basically wanting to destroy capitalism.

The issue is that the players are protesting for something quite a bit different (the basic concept rather than the party that started it) but that is not sufficiently clear to some.

Whatever, rightly or wrongly, the taking of the knee has become divisive and so overall does more harm than good (IMO) and has therefore outlasted its genuine and good intentions.

Sports people taking a knee has nowt to do with that sort of movement, surely that is obvious?

My own take on it is that the booing makes it important that they carry on doing it.

[bluenosey]

I think the co founder of the BLM movement called for an "end of Israel". It's just dog whistle, far left politics.

The sad thing is today anti israeli sentiment is hardly going to help the real racism that has been dished out to messrs Rashford, Sancho and Saka.

[RomynPG]

It's all come a long way since Kaepernick first got down - it's fully fledged Marxism now apparently

[blahblah]

It's all come a long way since Kaepernick first got down - it's fully fledged Marxism now apparently

And the lunatic fringe of Marxism.

[bluenosey]

It's gone the wrong way.

What Colin Kaepernick did was bold, like the black glove athletes in the 1960s. Black people fighting against black suppression by the US authorities. Making a stand (or knee).

No talk then about alledged "genoicide" by Israel.

[forestfan]

What the flying crap does Israel have to do with England footballers making an anti-racism gesture?

[Moon Knight]

May I ask which part of this statement you don’t understand bluenosey?

[blahblah]

What the flying crap does Israel have to do with England footballers making an anti-racism gesture?

Not to mention the multimillionaire footballers link to a revolution that will see them have a bowl of gruel a week....

[RomynPG]

It's all come a long way since Kaepernick first got down - it's fully fledged Marxism now apparently

just in case .... I was being sarcastic. Anyone who says taking the knee is the thin end of a marxist wedge is a someone who needs to get off facebook.

[murf]

What the flying crap does Israel have to do with England footballers making an anti-racism gesture?

They (mistakenly?) use the slogan Black Lives Matter from a movement which spawned a political party which is, amongst other things, anti-semitic and extremist left wing.

[unc.si.]

'Taking the knee' started with Colin Kaepernick as a respectful way of protesting against police brutality and violence against black people in the USA during the playing of the National Anthem at matches.

It was a very effective symbol, so much so that a lot of other people used it as a sign that they stand against racism and it started to become a very potent symbol against racism.

Some people don't like that, and so, in the same way that anti vaxxers try to associate Pfizer with killing African children with a TB vaccine, or Bill Gates killing people with experimental drugs, or messing with your DNA, the 'anti-anti-racism 'ers' have built associations between taking the knee and Israel, mass murderers, defunding the police, far left extremists and marxists. Like the anti-vax messages, if you don't think about it too much you could start believing it. As with all conspiracy theories there is always just a tiny grain of truth there somewhere to give the story some credibility, and it all gets magnified and legitimised by being picked up on by opinion writers in tabloid papers, and laundered by the process of repetition on social media. Ordinary people who aren't racist continue the process by repetition until enough people believe that its a bad thing that it stops. A measure of how effective the message is, is just how hard people are trying to stop them from doing it.


But in reality, Englands footballers aren't closet marxists who want to overthrow the government. They're young lads who see racism on a daily basis, either on the receiving end themselves or through their mates.

Its a simple gesture which means that they want racism to stop. The only reason its become controversial is that people who don't want racism to stop have made it controversial. Giving into that is just a step towards giving into racism, so don't fall into the trap.

[unc.si.]

This should be on every school syllabus. definitely worth watching to the end - best Mic drop ever!!

[RomynPG]

Good posts there Unc

[bluenosey]

May I ask which part of this statement you don’t understand bluenosey?

I understand it all - it's spot on.

[bluenosey]

So, how can Tyrone Mings call out Priti Patel for being racist ?

[bluenosey]

What the flying crap does Israel have to do with England footballers making an anti-racism gesture?

Nothing at all, its spot on. But Mings supports the political movement that is BLM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/52938082

I totally agree that it''s abhorrent that US police can suffocate an innocent black man by stamping on his throat.

I also do not see why that the BLM group includes aims entwined with anti israeli sentiment, over throwing capitalism and definding the police (although I can understand the tensions though in the US)

By supporting BLM, you are indirectly supporting the above, which alludes to genocide by Israel. You then accuse the home secretary of "gesture politics".

[bluenosey]

'Taking the knee' started with Colin Kaepernick as a respectful way of protesting against police brutality and violence against black people in the USA during the playing of the National Anthem at matches.

It was a very effective symbol, so much so that a lot of other people used it as a sign that they stand against racism and it started to become a very potent symbol against racism.

I take your point Unc and I'll stand against racism or kneel against it. No problems.

But I won't support the BLM movement, sorry.

https://twitter.com/karlhenry08/status/ ... 28?lang=en

[unc.si.]

'Taking the knee' started with Colin Kaepernick as a respectful way of protesting against police brutality and violence against black people in the USA during the playing of the National Anthem at matches.

It was a very effective symbol, so much so that a lot of other people used it as a sign that they stand against racism and it started to become a very potent symbol against racism.

I take your point Unc and I'll stand against racism or kneel against it. No problems.

But I won't support the BLM movement, sorry.

https://twitter.com/karlhenry08/status/ ... 28?lang=en

well thats a perfectly sensible response and fair enough (although actually I wasn't asking you to support anything )

The thing that does annoy me slightly though is that the vast majority of people who mention that Black Lives Matter, or take the knee simply support the sentiment and the message and don't support any specific extremist political movement, as illustrated by your link to Karl Henry's tweet.

BLM is a broad message and not exclusive to any political party or group. There may well be a small element that try to politicise it (although there is a lot of disinformation as well, including some completely made up 'manifesto's that purport to be from a group who use the BLM name but are actually totally fabricated).

Any large movement will always have its extreme elements. Certain people, who don't want the movement to succeed, focus on the tiny minority in order to deflect from the real message.

someone mentions BLM, or taking the knee, to make a valid and genuine anti racist point. the debate goes down a rabbit hole of marxist and anti-semitic conspiracy theories and the debate about racism gets lost. We shouldn't let the people that want that to happen win.

I don't believe that Priti Patel is a racist, and I believe that Mings didn't say that she was either. But she, and Johnson as well, effectively said that its OK for people to try to stop footballers from making an anti-racist statement. Its not that much of a jump to say that this is also empowering people to make racist remarks.

'taking the knee' just means you oppose racism and choose to use that as a visible show of that support. Its as simple as that

[unc.si.]

I would also just say though, that the public response to the scumbags posting racist messages onto Rashford, Sancho and Saka's social media accounts, and defacing the Rashford mural, has been fantastic to see.

We even got a Tory MP apologising for posting a stupid remark about Rashford, which isn't something you see every day...

Ironically, the mindless racism of a few idiots against 3 English footballers might well be a turning point in the fight against racism in this country. I won't hold my breath for too long, but how ironically beautiful would it be if that were the case

[murf]

I think I am right in saying... The BLM political party did grow directly from the original movement and the people who were organising it all (long before footballers took the knee here). It was not just some random extremists hijacking a good cause.

[unc.si.]

I'm not saying its some random extremists hijacking a good cause.

What I'm saying is that, as with any fairly large movement that aims to make meaningful change, there will be a wide range of people involved and almost inevitably some extremist elements within. Just look at the anti apartheid, civil rights, environmental etc movements and you'll see the same thing.

People that don't want anti-racism to succeed find something to focus on that causes negative connotations (a 'bogeyman' if you like, in this case 'the far left', or 'anti semites'). 'You should use a different symbol' or 'you should support a different slogan' are all just ways of undermining the key message. If people move away and start standing on one leg instead of taking the knee and saying Respect all cultures instead of BLM then they just move onto attacking them

It's purely intended to deflect the conversation away from the real issues.

Tyrone Mings didn't go to a BLM rally in Brum (or my daughter go to a BLM rally in Notts) because they are radical left wingers, they went because they see the casual daily racism that black people live with and want to be part of the solution not part of the problem.

[blahblah]

I'm not saying its some random extremists hijacking a good cause.

What I'm saying is that, as with any fairly large movement that aims to make meaningful change, there will be a wide range of people involved and almost inevitably some extremist elements within. Just look at the anti apartheid, civil rights, environmental etc movements and you'll see the same thing.

People that don't want anti-racism to succeed find something to focus on that causes negative connotations (a 'bogeyman' if you like, in this case 'the far left', or 'anti semites'). 'You should use a different symbol' or 'you should support a different slogan' are all just ways of undermining the key message. If people move away and start standing on one leg instead of taking the knee and saying Respect all cultures instead of BLM then they just move onto attacking them

It's purely intended to deflect the conversation away from the real issues.

Tyrone Mings didn't go to a BLM rally in Brum (or my daughter go to a BLM rally in Notts) because they are radical left wingers, they went because they see the casual daily racism that black people live with and want to be part of the solution not part of the problem.

Exactly.

[murf]

You may not go for those reasons but if you go to a rally by the BLM political party you deserve serious (not racist) abuse.

[unc.si.]

You may not go for those reasons but if you go to a rally by the BLM political party you deserve serious (not racist) abuse.

Rather than get into an argument, and also not wanting to keep repeating the same points, I think I'll have to respectfully agree to disagree with you there and move on.