Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2019/20

[hancockjr]

Totally agree - number of consecutive games with at least one academy graduate in the squad has always been the key measure of effectiveness of a clubs DNA/Ethos/Fabric* that all clubs have historically been judged against. Certainly isn't something that's just been plucked out of the air.

* delete as applicable, or insert own irritating synonym, as desired

[murf]

Doesn't mean jack when "academy graduate" includes expensive bought in youngsters (domestic and overseas)

[thebillfella]

There's the haters spin!

Absolutely zero evidence that the "academy graduate" in this ongoing unprecedented stat is an 'expensive bought in youngster (domestic and overseas)' so where in god's name is the relevance in that statement?

[blahblah]

It's like COVID isn't happening

[murf]

There's the haters spin!

Absolutely zero evidence that the "academy graduate" in this ongoing unprecedented stat is an 'expensive bought in youngster (domestic and overseas)' so where in god's name is the relevance in that statement?

First article opened..... first "graduate" named... Paul Pogba.... signed from France at 16.

[thebillfella]

If (and if ever there was a classic example of an exception proving a rule this is it!) murf is referring to Pogba in an attempt to discredit a record that runs all the way back to 1937 (I genuinely can't think of another one but please fill yer boots?) then he does realise that Pogba has played after re-signing during a spell where Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Marcus Rashford, Axel Tuanzebe, Scott McTominay, Mason Greenwood and Brandon Williams (amongst many others) have also been in the first team squad?

For his debut the first time around, Pogba was one of four academy players promoted to the first-team squad by Sir Alex, with the likes of Jonny Evans, Danny Welbeck, the Da Silvas, Tom Cleverley, Darren Fletcher and of course Giggs and Scholes already established academy grads in the first team squad. Quite frankly, I don't count Pogba as a true academy graduate personally as he left before fully bedding into the first team and came back as we know for a ridiculous fee. There were plenty of other graduates in the squad at the same that didn't cost a penny for him not to be needed as part of the stat - there is zero reliance on Pogba as a stat to maintain a record that has provided 2 academy Balon D'Or winners and arguably should have had another 1 or 2 at least.

[murf]

Pereira? 16
Da Silvas? 17
Maybe some others, don't know their histories.....


Zero reliance on Pogba? Have you checked all those squads?

[hancockjr]

Didn't we establish that from 1980 age group onwards (i.e. since I guess about 1996, but maybe a bit before) Pogba apart the best the academy had to offer in terms Man U playing success was Rashford, Darren Fletcher, and Wes Brown? MAybe Johnny Evans (I think he's good, Man U clearly didn't). Slim pickings indeed, may have missed someone but none have been pointed out (note - Mark Hughes was born before 1980!!).

All I had in return was "well, other clubs are no better, except maybe Arsenal".

Not really the point, other clubs don't bang on interminably about their "conveyor belt" continuing the "club's DNA". Face it - Man U don't have a "conveyor belt", they buy their players, just like every other club.

[thebillfella]

More fake news and spin Trumpy

Read the previous posts - it's all there.

More pages of academy grads (especially those you've heard of even if you don't rate because they played more than twice) than any other team on the link shared by someone else previously (and more total medals for those players than anybody else's grads I'd wager, thus showing that they contributed alongside the purchased players as a minimum number of games were needed to collect); more academy Balon D'Or winners as well I think (?); an ongoing record in the first team than no other team comes even close to etc etc. Whether your metric is pure quantas, medals or longevity they come top of all the tables.

Some other clubs don't go "banging on about it" because they don't (or are not brave enough to) do it or have not been as successful in doing it. Nobody said they'd all been world class products; that's your own personal selection bias. But that doesn't stop them continuing to try it year in year out - almost like a conveyor someone neutral might say

[Dot]

More fake news and spin Trumpy

Read the previous posts - it's all there.

More pages of academy grads (especially those you've heard of even if you don't rate because they played more than twice) than any other team on the link shared by someone else previously (and more total medals for those players than anybody else's grads I'd wager, thus showing that they contributed alongside the purchased players as a minimum number of games were needed to collect); more academy Balon D'Or winners as well I think (?); an ongoing record in the first team than no other team comes even close to etc etc. Whether your metric is pure quantas, medals or longevity they come top of all the tables.

Some other clubs don't go "banging on about it" because they don't (or are not brave enough to) do it or have not been as successful in doing it. Nobody said they'd all been world class products; that's your own personal selection bias. But that doesn't stop them continuing to try it year in year out - almost like a conveyor someone neutral might say

Your life seems to revolve around United Bill. You are sad.....

Being United's greatest ever armchair fan and banging on about United's DNA and fantastic players that have come through the youth - Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Axel Tuanzebe, Scott McTominay, Jonny Evans, Danny Welbeck, the Da Silvas, Tom Cleverley, Darren Fletcher … stop it please my sides are splitting.

How come you never gave a mention of United' greatest ever player, who came thru the ranks( in a roundabout way) and would have been his 74th Birthday yesterday.

https://www.irishpost.com/sport/19-icon ... tes-155063

[hancockjr]

More fake news and spin Trumpy

Read the previous posts - it's all there.

More pages of academy grads (especially those you've heard of even if you don't rate because they played more than twice) than any other team on the link shared by someone else previously (and more total medals for those players than anybody else's grads I'd wager, thus showing that they contributed alongside the purchased players as a minimum number of games were needed to collect); more academy Balon D'Or winners as well I think (?); an ongoing record in the first team than no other team comes even close to etc etc. Whether your metric is pure quantas, medals or longevity they come top of all the tables.

Some other clubs don't go "banging on about it" because they don't (or are not brave enough to) do it or have not been as successful in doing it. Nobody said they'd all been world class products; that's your own personal selection bias. But that doesn't stop them continuing to try it year in year out - almost like a conveyor someone neutral might say

Man U produced some great youngsters in the past, especially the Busby Babes and class of '92. Since around then though the return has been pitiful; that's around 25 years. Can we agree on that? That's why you're having to bring up Balon D'Or winners from so long ago.

If that's a "conveyor belt" the factory should be shut down!

[thebillfella]

So thinking about academy grads from 1996 onwards (so conveniently avoiding the likes of Duncan Edwards, Bill Foulkes, Sir Bobby Charlton, Nobby Stiles, George Best, Norman Whiteside, Mark Hughes, Ryan Giggs, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, David Beckham, Paul Scholes and so on), the following are players who spent some time in United's youth ranks and either played regularly for Utd first team or at another top league (Prem, La Liga) club for min. 50 games from 1996 onwards to qualify for this list (so exclude the likes of Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood and Axel Tuanzebe):

Marcus Rashford
Darren Fletcher
Danny Drinkwater
Ben Foster
Tom Heaton
Gerald Pique
Guiseppe Rossi
Paul Pogba
Dean Henderson
Ryan Shawcross
John O'Shea
Wes Brown
Jonny Evans
Rafael Da Silva
Fabio Da Silva
Danny Welbeck
Robbie Savage
Robbie Brady
Michael Keane
Tom Cleverley
Danny Simpson
Phil Bardsley
Keith Gillespie
Mark Wilson
Craig Cathcart
Jonathan Spector
Darron Gibson
Chris Eagles
James Chester
Adnan Januzaj
Joshua King
Frazier Campbell
David Healy
Danny Higginbottom
Timothy Fosu-Mensah
Ronnie Wallwork
David Jones
Danny Guthrie
Paul McShane
Sylvan Ebanks-Blake
Dwight McNeill
Jesse Lingard
Andreas Pereira
Scott McTominay

Again, only you are equating failure to produce a large quantity of world class graduates with not having "a conveyor belt" academy-influenced approach (a tad black and white don't you think) but if that list doesn't demonstrate the presence of a conveyor belt then you're deluding no-one but yourself (and of course the other deluded scousers on here who don't like these inconvenient truths).

And to claim only 3 of them can be considered successful is just a piss take (although you'll no doubt ignore someone like Foster, Pique, Heaton or O'Shea say and instead focus on someone like Campbell, Eagles or Spector in a vain attempt to prove the point nobody but you was "harping on about" ).

So instead, I'll leave you with another inconvenient truth:

Graduates from the Manchester United academy played 44,055 minutes of Premier League football last season, more than double those passing through runners-up Tottenham Hotspur's ranks who racked up 21,668, per Press Association Sport (h/t Sky Sports).

[thebillfella]

Man U produced some great youngsters in the past, especially the Busby Babes and class of '92. Since around then though the return has been pitiful; that's around 25 years. Can we agree on that? That's why you're having to bring up Balon D'Or winners from so long ago.

If that's a "conveyor belt" the factory should be shut down!

Who said they were all successful? You suggested that; no one else? Yes, since the class of 92 the number of world class players out of the academy has been pitiful. but still more premier league players have come out of OT youth ranks than anywhere else.

Not a great analogy, but just because Ford Dagenham only produce Fiestas now doesn't mean they don't make cars anymore (and every now and then a Ford GT40 or Mustang rolls off the production line)

[thebillfella]

Your life seems to revolve around United Bill. You are sad.....Another FISO-gold moment there if someone can frame it

How come you never gave a mention of United' greatest ever player, who came thru the ranks( in a roundabout way) and would have been his 74th Birthday yesterday. Err, I did, specifically by name and more subtley (for you) by reffering to him being one of the Balon D'Or winners

[hancockjr]

So thinking about academy grads from 1996 onwards (so conveniently avoiding the likes of Duncan Edwards, Bill Foulkes, Sir Bobby Charlton, Nobby Stiles, George Best, Norman Whiteside, Mark Hughes, Ryan Giggs, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, David Beckham, Paul Scholes and so on), the following are players who spent some time in United's youth ranks and either played regularly for Utd first team or at another top league (Prem, La Liga) club for min. 50 games from 1996 onwards to qualify for this list (so exclude the likes of Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood and Axel Tuanzebe):

Marcus Rashford
Darren Fletcher
Danny Drinkwater
Ben Foster
Tom Heaton
Gerald Pique
Guiseppe Rossi
Paul Pogba
Dean Henderson
Ryan Shawcross
John O'Shea
Wes Brown
Jonny Evans
Rafael Da Silva
Fabio Da Silva
Danny Welbeck
Robbie Savage
Robbie Brady
Michael Keane
Tom Cleverley
Danny Simpson
Phil Bardsley
Keith Gillespie
Mark Wilson
Craig Cathcart
Jonathan Spector
Darron Gibson
Chris Eagles
James Chester
Adnan Januzaj
Joshua King
Frazier Campbell
David Healy
Danny Higginbottom
Timothy Fosu-Mensah
Ronnie Wallwork
David Jones
Danny Guthrie
Paul McShane
Sylvan Ebanks-Blake
Dwight McNeill
Jesse Lingard
Andreas Pereira
Scott McTominay

Again, only you are equating failure to produce a large quantity of world class graduates with not having "a conveyor belt" academy-influenced approach (a tad black and white don't you think) but if that list doesn't demonstrate the presence of a conveyor belt then you're deluding no-one but yourself (and of course the other deluded scousers on here who don't like these inconvenient truths).

And to claim only 3 of them can be considered successful is just a piss take (although you'll no doubt ignore someone like Foster, Pique, Heaton or O'Shea say and instead focus on someone like Campbell, Eagles or Spector in a vain attempt to prove the point nobody but you was "harping on about" ).

So instead, I'll leave you with another inconvenient truth:

Graduates from the Manchester United academy played 44,055 minutes of Premier League football last season, more than double those passing through runners-up Tottenham Hotspur's ranks who racked up 21,668, per Press Association Sport (h/t Sky Sports).

Sorry, I see few Man U appearances in that lot, aside from the ones I highlighted, suggesting claims that Man U produce their own talent for their team is wide of the mark in the last 25 years.

But you can continue to miss the point and harp on about Duncan Edwards and players who have gone on to make a name at other clubs if it floats your boat.

[Dot]

Man U produced some great youngsters in the past, especially the Busby Babes and class of '92. Since around then though the return has been pitiful; that's around 25 years. Can we agree on that? That's why you're having to bring up Balon D'Or winners from so long ago.

If that's a "conveyor belt" the factory should be shut down!

Who said they were all successful? You suggested that; no one else? Yes, since the class of 92 the number of world class players out of the academy has been pitiful. but still more premier league players have come out of OT youth ranks than anywhe re else.

Not a great analogy, but just because Ford Dagenham only produce Fiestas now doesn't mean they don't make cars anymore (and every now and then a Ford GT40 or Mustang rolls off the production line)

Um I live in Essex Bill ...infact two of my neighbours work for Fords of Dagenham.

To correct you Fords of Dagenham last made and had a Fiesta roll off their production line 18 years ago.

Get with it.

They ain't made a motor since. They make engines only and for the last couple of months have been making respiratory equipment for the NHS.

[Dot]

Your life seems to revolve around United Bill. You are sad.....Another FISO-gold moment there if someone can frame it

How come you never gave a mention of United' greatest ever player, who came thru the ranks( in a roundabout way) and would have been his 74th Birthday yesterday. Err, I did, specifically by name and more subtley (for you) by reffering to him being one of the Balon D'Or winners

Umm but u didn't

George Best birthday was yesterday. 22nd May

There wasnt a single post made in here yesterday. Funny that...

Please feel free to point out where you have given George Best a mention by name prior to my post.

My point, incase you were confused, was the FACT it was his birthday not that he was a united Ballon D'or winner hence my sticking up a link of his greatest quotes.

I was trying to lighten the waffle with something more pertinent ( imo)

[thebillfella]

No point is being missed here hancock; I'm not the one shifting any goalposts. And you'd be surprised how many United appearances there are with some that you didn't mention there (Welbeck 92, Rafael 109, O'Shea 256, Cleverley 55, Januzaj 50, McTominay 51, Lingard 131, Pereira 43 etc)

My message has been clear all along. I have never once claimed that United produce the team exclusively from the youth team; nor that their best players come consistently and exclusively from the academy. That does not detract from the fact that great faith is put in the academy and its "success rate", no matter how low in absolute terms, is still more successful (in any of the metrics previously mentioned) than any other team in the Prem.

[murf]

Ah, Januzaj.....

Like Pereira, Rafael, Pogba etc, another one bought in at 16+....

Keep that conveyor belt of kids with the United DNA rolling.

EDIT Just checked up and United academy graduate John O'Shea joined the club at 17. Barely out of nappies.

[Darbyand]

Seeing (as usual) we've got so many LFC fans on the thread I thought I'd take a look at their recent Academy graduates. If we're disqualifying the likes of Sterling for being nabbed from another club in his teens, I make it one unquestionable hit in TAA in the last 20 years. People in glass houses etc etc. If I've got a few seconds to spare later today I'll have a look at City.

[murf]

Liverpool fans aren't claiming stupid stats about homegrown players and 4000 games. That is all I was ever laughing at.

And those lists are surely based on far different factors to the United ones or would be much longer - admittedly not with stars.

Good job you stopped at 20 years too, thus avoiding Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Fowler, McManaman.....

And no, I wouldn't count Sterling, Gomez, Murphy, Rush etc etc because I dont consider them as being brought through. Although Sterling was younger, 15, than all those I have highlighted from United.

Oh, and did anyone mention Beckham, signed at 16.

[thebillfella]

Ah, Januzaj.....

Like Pereira, Rafael, Pogba etc, another one bought in at 16+....

Keep that conveyor belt of kids with the United DNA rolling.

EDIT Just checked up and United academy graduate John O'Shea joined the club at 17. Barely out of nappies.

Jesus wept. So if they join at 16 and play in the youth team for a few seasons before being promoted to the first team then that doesn't count now?! That's some filter that is now being applied in a vain attempt to prove United don't actively promote from their academy isn't it?

Looks like darbyand has made a start but lets just apply the same filters to LiVARpool and see what we get shall we? Surely, if United just does "the same as everybody else" then we'll get a similar quantum of names won't we. And that is what is in question here so put up or shut up!

Remember (using filters that LiVARpool fans alone have defined - funny that):

1) They must have been born from 1980 onwards
2) They can't have played before the 1996 season
3) They must have made their name with LiVARpool first and played a reasonable number of first team games with them first (I used min 50 games total but I'll let you decide your own metric there)
4) They must have been with the club before their 16th birthday
5) They can't have been signed from another club

So fill your boots. And again, this isn't to demonstrate how great LiVARpool's academy is but to demonstrate that United promote no less academy graduates to the first team than anyone else. Surely the list will be similar? Should be easy yes?

[thebillfella]

Liverpool fans aren't claiming stupid stats about homegrown players and 4000 games. That is all I was ever laughing at. But you are claiming every does it the same so you should have a comparable list no?

And those lists are surely based on far different factors to the United ones or would be much longer - admittedly not with stars.

Good job you stopped at 20 years too, thus avoiding Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Fowler, McManaman.....Er, that's you and your biased cohort's filters there not ours, otherwise we'd be allowed to include the Class of 92

[murf]

Liverpool fans aren't claiming stupid stats about homegrown players and 4000 games. That is all I was ever laughing at. But you are claiming every does it the same so you should have a comparable list no?

And those lists are surely based on far different factors to the United ones or would be much longer - admittedly not with stars.

Good job you stopped at 20 years too, thus avoiding Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Fowler, McManaman.....Er, that's you filters there not ours, otherwise we'd be allowed to include the Class of 92

FFS...

I am not making 4000 game claims. Man U fans listed huge lists of Man U graduates then a more select list of Liverpool graduates (none of this my work - just making this observation)

20 year limit? - again not my invention.

The Liverpool comparisons were started by a Utd fan - Darbyand (not me, Dot or any other Liverpool fan)

All I am saying is that if you are bragging about producing talent then it rings VERY HOLLOW to me if you have to include bought in players like Beckham, O'Shea, Rafael, Pogba, Fabio, Janujaz, Perieira etc etc

[Dot]

Man U produced some great youngsters in the past, especially the Busby Babes and class of '92. Since around then though the return has been pitiful; that's around 25 years. Can we agree on that? That's why you're having to bring up Balon D'Or winners from so long ago.

If that's a "conveyor belt" the factory should be shut down!

Who said they were all successful? You suggested that; no one else? Yes, since the class of 92 the number of world class players out of the academy has been pitiful. but still more premier league players have come out of OT youth ranks than anywhe re else.

Not a great analogy, but just because Ford Dagenham only produce Fiestas now doesn't mean they don't make cars anymore (and every now and then a Ford GT40 or Mustang rolls off the production line)

Um I live in Essex Bill ...infact two of my neighbours work for Fords of Dagenham.

To correct you Fords of Dagenham last made and had a Fiesta roll off their production line 18 years ago.

Get with it.

They ain't made a motor since. They make engines only and for the last couple of months have been making respiratory equipment for the NHS.

Oi Bill let's talk about those Fiesta's u mention that u believed were still being rolled out

Its good your keeping up with the times albeit 18 years late you know I even spoke to a foreman there for years only this morning as he is a neighbour. It did tickle him

[thebillfella]

FFS...

I am not making 4000 game claims. Not claims murf, fact.

Man U fans listed huge lists of Man U graduates then a more select list of Liverpool graduates (none of this my work - just making this observation)Forced by the hand of LiVARpool deniers who refuse to accept the "claims" (using your own word there).

20 year limit? - again not my invention.Hancocks - another LiVARpool fan - in the post that started this debate off

The Liverpool comparisons were started by a Utd fan - Darbyand (not me, Dot or any other Liverpool fan) Because it was the same LiVARpool fans who were mocking the facts stated as mere claims and consistently stating that United do nothing different to anyone else. If that is so then PROVE IT using the same filters your kin have imposed.

All I am saying is that if you are bragging about producing talent then it rings VERY HOLLOW to me if you have to include bought in players like Beckham, O'Shea, Rafael, Pogba, Fabio, Janujaz, Perieira etc etc FFS, if they cost nothing and learn / come through the academy ranks before being promoted to the first team then that is still developing from within rather than going out and spending large amounts on every player in every position after they have been developed by other clubs

[thebillfella]

Dot, we're having an adult debate here. Can you take your totally irrelevant illiterate rants somewhere else so we can stay on topic?

[thebillfella]

Liverpool fans aren't claiming stupid stats about homegrown players and 4000 games. That is all I was ever laughing at. But you are claiming every does it the same so you should have a comparable list no?

And those lists are surely based on far different factors to the United ones or would be much longer - admittedly not with stars.

Good job you stopped at 20 years too, thus avoiding Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Fowler, McManaman.....Er, that's you and your biased cohort's filters there not ours, otherwise we'd be allowed to include the Class of 92

McManaman - born before 1980 and played before 1996 so can't be included (otherwise the comparison includes the Class of 92)
Gerrard - yep, he counts as he just scrapes in at 1996 (although he did have trials with various clubs inc. United at 14 years of age and didn't sign with Liverpool until 17 yrs old, but that sounds like the sort of irrelevant nonsense I've read earlier so will ignore here)
Carragher - born before 1980 so doesn't count (otherwise the comparison includes the Class of 92)
Owen - born before 1980 so doesn't count (otherwise the comparison includes the Class of 92)
Fowler - born before 1980 and played before 1996 so can't be included (otherwise the comparison includes the Class of 92)
Sterling - signed from QPR academy for a fee aged 16 so he doesn't count
Ibe - signed from Wycombe academy for a fee aged 16 so he doesn't count
Warnock - yes, he counts if 40 games suffices?
Flannagan - yes, he counts if 40 games suffices?
Kelly - yes, he counts if 33 games suffices?
Insua - signed from Boca for a fee aged 18 so he doesn't count
Gomez - signed from Charlton for a fee aged 18 so he doesn't count

So, basically, Gerrard, Warnock, Flannagan, Kelly and TAA then since 1996!!! Well, that certainly proves United is no different to anyone else then.

Basically them's the facts. But no doubt Dot will come back on and say it's all bollocks because I got 2 words of a metaphor wrong...

[murf]

If you want to brag about buying in foreign and non-Manc domestic talent at 16-18 and pretending they came through the Man U system, then fine, "I'm out" and will just laugh at you from afar.

(PS Find a single post where I even discussed 1980 or 1996. You can't.)

[thebillfella]

Hancock did. I've already told you this.

Plucking out a few names from the many and stating they alone demonstrate that the whole approach is based only on plucking them from elsewhere at the age of 16 is also disingenuous at best. The bulk of the names listed were there from schoolboy level.

Obviously we are not going to pull the likes of Pogba and Da Silva from their families at the age of 10 - there are (or at least were - the 90 min rule was in place - not sure if that still exists tbh?) rules to prevent that happening so you legally can't do that before the age of 15/16.