View Latest: 1 Day | FISO Injury Search

EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance] - Poll: Will we leave???

A forum for general discussion on News & Politics issues and topics
Post Reply

Will the UK leave on Halloween?

Poll runs till 16 Sep 2019, 08:56

Yes with the May deal
1
3%
Yes with a Boris deal
4
11%
Yes with no deal
9
25%
No there will be a further extension
16
44%
No Article 50 will be revoked
6
17%
 
Total votes: 36

User avatar
bluenosey
Dumblenose
Posts: 12539
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Solihull
FS Record: Considerably poorer than yow :-(

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by bluenosey » 17 Apr 2019, 15:47

Except I didn't say that, I said that uncontrolled immigration favours the rich and posted links showing just that, that low paid workers were adversely affected, whilst high paid workers reaped the rewards.

User avatar
bluenosey
Dumblenose
Posts: 12539
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Solihull
FS Record: Considerably poorer than yow :-(

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by bluenosey » 17 Apr 2019, 15:56

.... and it looks like we're going back to square one

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 74361.html

User avatar
forestfan
FISO Knight
Posts: 16427
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:27
Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
FS Record: Joint 6th TFF Wooden Spoon!

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 17 Apr 2019, 18:58

bluenosey wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 12:00
forestfan wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:24
They generally turn to those beliefs out of anger at their own situation though. Nobody is born hating anyone (though we’re probably naturally wary of things that are “different”, something which we all have to constantly work to overcome).

Far right governments rise out of economic collapse, and leaders who preach hate and encourage the ordinary people to channel it in a certain way.
I'm afraid that's the remainer classic throw back line - you voted Brexit so you're a racist (or a Nazi in David Lammy's case)

Nothing on contributions paid to the EU (and what we get back)
Nothing about ever greater greater political union
Nothing about why the EEC gradually morphed into the EU
Nothing on Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal and the state of their economies
Nothing about setting up an EU army

Of course it's happening in parts of Europe. Some people aren't that keen on ever greater political union but they are far right nazi skinhead types, according to the "thinking" press

For the record - and I know it will upset some on here - I would rather have an Indian Doctor than a Roma gypsy in the country but that's just my take.
I was strongly against the greater political union bit, but having seen what many of our politicians are like I’m turning borderline federalist now! Although one of the Brexit ultras suggested our MPs are now simply microwave chefs who take laws from Brussels and whack them in on full power for four minutes, when they used to be Michelin starred craftsmen coming up with creative ideas of their own... I’ll take that with a pinch of salt though :wink:

The money for the NHS line probably did sway a lot of people. Total bullshit though, when it’s dwarfed by the billions we could be spending on tariffs and customs checks, and lost revenue from a smaller economy.

In terms of bailing out Greece et al - well we have the best of that deal by managing to stay out of the Euro. If and when we rejoin (subject to us ever actually leaving) we will have to commit to the currency...

User avatar
Maldini
Dumbledore
Posts: 6207
Joined: 07 Mar 2014, 18:32

EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Maldini » 17 Apr 2019, 19:26

Zimmerman wrote:If the cap fits, let them wear it.
If they are of voting age and hold those ignorant beliefs... you’re not going to convince any of them otherwise.

Half of them don’t know the difference between a refugee and an immigrant.
I think we all agree that not all leavers are racist (though quite a lot are). What is true, is that all Leave supporters are facilitating the growing prominence of the far right. This must surely have started to resonate with the millions of decent leave supporters?

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed- ... extremists

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 17 Apr 2019, 23:50

Zimmerman wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:21
If the cap fits, let them wear it.
If they are of voting age and hold those ignorant beliefs... you’re not going to convince any of them otherwise.

Half of them don’t know the difference between a refugee and an immigrant.
How do you know? Have you asked them all?

I love the way people have this fully-formed image of the ignorant, racist, working class Leave voter in their minds, polishing up the stereotype with every post.

User avatar
forestfan
FISO Knight
Posts: 16427
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:27
Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
FS Record: Joint 6th TFF Wooden Spoon!

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 18 Apr 2019, 08:08

We might not be able to change people’s beliefs by telling them they’re wrong/racist/stupid. But there’s a need to tackle the issues leading to those beliefs, otherwise we will end up with a far-right government in time.

MADCHESTER UTD
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 1934
Joined: 09 Jul 2015, 11:23
FS Record: Won DT WC 2018
Won DT weekender wk 2 18/19
Won TFE 18/19

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by MADCHESTER UTD » 18 Apr 2019, 16:15

[youtube][youtube]https://youtu.be/dQY2CHx4d3U

I genuinely want to know what Maldini makes of the late,great Tony Benn and the brilliant Dennis Skinner both being massively anti the E.U? Both politicians who are old labour, proper socialists and to the left so it makes a mockery of this “leavers are spearheading the right wing agenda” as Benn and Skinner are as anti right wing as you can get.

We so regularly hear of tw@ts like Jim Davidson being leavers but the likes of Benn, Skinner who were/are leavers conveniently never get mentioned :roll: By the way Benns brilliant 5 minute cameo here on the above YT link pretty much nails the E.U up to me.

Though old labours peter shorey oxford union speech on the E.U trumps it. If the likes of Davidson get linked with the leave campaign then it’s only fair I mention that the evil paedo Ted Heath who was obviously massively pro E.U is in the Shorey YT vid skulking in the background.

* it’s open to a reply from all remainers, I just mentioned Maldini as I knew he is old labour, dislikes the Conservatives etc and I assume is a fan of both Benn and Skinner (like I am) :wink:

User avatar
Maldini
Dumbledore
Posts: 6207
Joined: 07 Mar 2014, 18:32

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Maldini » 18 Apr 2019, 16:46

They are/were both wrong. As Corbyn is.

Although, I agree with a a lot of what they all stood/stand for, they’re not universally correct. I’m a member of the Labour Party, not a cult.

Politics is like a horseshoe, the far right and far left aren’t a millions miles apart and intolerance is prevalent in both.

User avatar
Zimmerman
FISO Jedi Knight
Posts: 29009
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:42
Location: having a picnic at the Bear Mountain

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Zimmerman » 18 Apr 2019, 17:10

Billy Whiz wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 23:50
Zimmerman wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:21
If the cap fits, let them wear it.
If they are of voting age and hold those ignorant beliefs... you’re not going to convince any of them otherwise.

Half of them don’t know the difference between a refugee and an immigrant.
How do you know? Have you asked them all?

I love the way people have this fully-formed image of the ignorant, racist, working class Leave voter in their minds, polishing up the stereotype with every post
What are you questioning, the stereotype or my flippant use of “half of them”?

Surely you don’t doubt that the stereotype is true?
Surely youre not playing the pedant card on my stats use?

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 18 Apr 2019, 18:36

Zimmerman wrote:
18 Apr 2019, 17:10
Billy Whiz wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 23:50
Zimmerman wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:21
If the cap fits, let them wear it.
If they are of voting age and hold those ignorant beliefs... you’re not going to convince any of them otherwise.

Half of them don’t know the difference between a refugee and an immigrant.
How do you know? Have you asked them all?

I love the way people have this fully-formed image of the ignorant, racist, working class Leave voter in their minds, polishing up the stereotype with every post
What are you questioning, the stereotype or my flippant use of “half of them”?

Surely you don’t doubt that the stereotype is true?
Surely youre not playing the pedant card on my stats use?
First, it’s an absurd generalisation to say that half of “them” (from the context of the previous posts, people who voted Leave) don’t know the difference between migrant and refugee. I appreciate that you didn’t literally mean half, but frankly it doesn’t matter whether you did or not, because you can have absolutely no idea how many Leavers know the difference, any more than you know how many Remainers know the difference. Therefore, I can't think of any other reason for you to come up with this fatuous observation than, as I said, to polish up the stereotype of the ignorant, racist Leaver.

You might counter that Oh, I didn’t mean all Leavers. But this is dog-whistle politics. Once you start making negative generalisations about a group of people the seeds of prejudice are planted and picked up by others. Pretty soon what starts as a “minority” of Leavers being stupid racists or whatever, then becomes “about half” until we get to the point where just about anyone who voted Leave is regarded as stupid, racist or both.

This probably sounds like an angry post. I'm not angry, I'm just bored with this line of discussion, because you can't stereotype more than 17 million people without yourself resorting to ignorance and bigotry.

MADCHESTER UTD
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 1934
Joined: 09 Jul 2015, 11:23
FS Record: Won DT WC 2018
Won DT weekender wk 2 18/19
Won TFE 18/19

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by MADCHESTER UTD » 18 Apr 2019, 18:38

Maldini wrote:
18 Apr 2019, 16:46
They are/were both wrong. As Corbyn is.

Although, I agree with a a lot of what they all stood/stand for, they’re not universally correct. I’m a member of the Labour Party, not a cult.

Politics is like a horseshoe, the far right and far left aren’t a millions miles apart and intolerance is prevalent in both.
Fair enough and thanks for replying👍 I’m just glad I’ve given examples of “Leave” politicians in Benn and Skinner who are as far apart as you can get from the likes of “Leaver” Jim Davidson and “Remainer’s” such as Blair, Cameron, Heath who I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire. Just readdressing the balance.

IMO there is an equal amount of good and bad people on both sides of “Leave” and “Remain” so about time these generalisations stopped

User avatar
forestfan
FISO Knight
Posts: 16427
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:27
Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
FS Record: Joint 6th TFF Wooden Spoon!

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 18 Apr 2019, 19:38

Left-wing “leavers” are pretty thin on the ground though, and mostly old... there’s a Labour “mini-ERG” that has been voting against the soft Brexit/potential remain options in Parliament (and maybe even May’s deal as not Brexity enough) but they’re not even in double figures.

User avatar
Backlash
Dumbledore
Posts: 9533
Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 10:05
FS Record: Worst avatar punishment ever.

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Backlash » 18 Apr 2019, 19:43

I last dipped into this thread about a year ago, there surely isn’t anyone with a modicum of intellect still advocating that Brexit is a good idea is there?

I’m off to look at the fantastic trade deals that we have managed thus far 😳

User avatar
Tacalabala
FISO Knight
Posts: 18978
Joined: 07 Sep 2008, 01:03

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Tacalabala » 18 Apr 2019, 20:53

Backlash wrote:
18 Apr 2019, 19:43
I last dipped into this thread about a year ago, there surely isn’t anyone with a modicum of intellect still advocating that Brexit is a good idea is there?

I’m off to look at the fantastic trade deals that we have managed thus far 😳
Actual footage of Liam Fox, the International Trade Secretary's office:

Image

User avatar
Zimmerman
FISO Jedi Knight
Posts: 29009
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:42
Location: having a picnic at the Bear Mountain

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Zimmerman » 19 Apr 2019, 08:20

@Billy I was specifically talking about the racists though. It wasn’t a generalisation. If you look back at the posts, we were specifically talking about the racist leavers (or at least I was).

7lb claimer
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 1609
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:33

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by 7lb claimer » 19 Apr 2019, 09:38

bluenosey wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 15:56
.... and it looks like we're going back to square one

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 74361.html
Greens are doing well. I can see them growing into more than a by election type protest vehicle. Change numbers are disappointing. They really need to form an alliance with the other middle ground party. I wonder how many Tory MPs will come out for the Brexit party.

User avatar
forestfan
FISO Knight
Posts: 16427
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:27
Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
FS Record: Joint 6th TFF Wooden Spoon!

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 19 Apr 2019, 09:59

7lb claimer wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 09:38
bluenosey wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 15:56
.... and it looks like we're going back to square one

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 74361.html
Greens are doing well. I can see them growing into more than a by election type protest vehicle. Change numbers are disappointing. They really need to form an alliance with the other middle ground party. I wonder how many Tory MPs will come out for the Brexit party.
Well, the hardline Tories still have their trump card of the likely election of a hard Brexit supporting leader whenever May falls, but if the government have settled on a soft Brexit cross-party compromise with a “Boris lock” there might be a full scale split sooner. On the other hand, if it rumbles on and a new leader pursues a “unicorn or no-deal” agenda then they may lose many more of the moderates (and it won’t change the parliamentary maths without an election anyway).

The big question is, how many Tories of either wing would willingly vote down their former party in a confidence vote and potentially put Corbyn in number 10? Would only take a handful of rebels to take down the Tory-DUP pact, but would be a massive step to take for them.

User avatar
Zimmerman
FISO Jedi Knight
Posts: 29009
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:42
Location: having a picnic at the Bear Mountain

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Zimmerman » 19 Apr 2019, 10:30

7lb claimer wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 09:38
bluenosey wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 15:56
.... and it looks like we're going back to square one

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 74361.html
Greens are doing well. I can see them growing into more than a by election type protest vehicle. Change numbers are disappointing. They really need to form an alliance with the other middle ground party. I wonder how many Tory MPs will come out for the Brexit party.
Here's that phrase again... is it a protest? Or do people just like them more than what the others have to offer?
Its almost a nonchalant - its not that they are good, but its because they don't like us. Arguably the two are the same thing?

Maybe I'm naive, but I think people vote for their favourite option (speaking as someone who abstained for pretty much every election because none of them have done enough to float my boat more than the others). Even though some believe you should vote because people died for that right etc etc. you'd still be voting for your favourite of the options available.

7lb claimer
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 1609
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:33

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by 7lb claimer » 19 Apr 2019, 13:37

Voters are pragmatic. If the Greens or any other minority Party do REALLY well in this type of election then they get media coverage and momentum to carry them forward to the next big one. If they just do OK and media interest dissipates then voters are more likely to think they will be a wasted vote in a General Election. Proportional Representation would change everything but we ain't got it.

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 19 Apr 2019, 14:10

Zimmerman wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 08:20
@Billy I was specifically talking about the racists though. It wasn’t a generalisation. If you look back at the posts, we were specifically talking about the racist leavers (or at least I was).
I did look back, and it was a discussion about who had voted Leave and whether it was an anti-establishment vote. I accept what you say though, and it wasn't particularly meant against you so much as a general point. No doubt nothing will change but I've got it off my chest now

User avatar
Zimmerman
FISO Jedi Knight
Posts: 29009
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:42
Location: having a picnic at the Bear Mountain

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Zimmerman » 19 Apr 2019, 15:27

And to further argue my case (and appreciate you’ve already moved on)... I think your angle is something I myself acknowledged a few pages/weeks back
Zimmerman wrote:
31 Mar 2019, 07:33
But for the most part, people will dig their heels in. No one likes to be told they are wrong (or an idiot or a racist idiot). Whilst that might be true for a lot of leavers [who’d never change their mind] the rationale ones who might otherwise be open to discussion will be alienated by the continuous jibes.

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 19 Apr 2019, 21:53

Very prescient!

User avatar
RomynPG
Dumbledore
Posts: 7329
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:32
FS Record: FPL 134 overall 06/07 ... never close since

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by RomynPG » 25 Apr 2019, 23:01

I usually enjoy the non politicians on Question Time but (actor) John Rhys-Davies seems to be an idiot.

User avatar
RomynPG
Dumbledore
Posts: 7329
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:32
FS Record: FPL 134 overall 06/07 ... never close since

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by RomynPG » 25 Apr 2019, 23:35

RomynPG wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 23:01
I usually enjoy the non politicians on Question Time but (actor) John Rhys-Davies seems to be an idiot.
lol - he's a full on deplorable.

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 26 Apr 2019, 14:29

I didn't watch it but I see Caroline Lucas was on again - a minority party MP who nevertheless seems to be on QT every other week.

User avatar
unc.si.
Dumbledore
Posts: 7130
Joined: 11 Oct 2010, 14:08
Location: Off to buy Loctite
FS Record: 'Loser' by Beck

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by unc.si. » 26 Apr 2019, 16:05

Rhys-Davies came across as a privileged old colonial idiot.

As for Caroline Lucas - the more she's on QT and in general the more air time she gets the better as far as I'm concerned. Pity there aren't more like her.

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 26 Apr 2019, 16:26

The problem with Caroline Lucas is that we already know what she's going to think about any given subject, so what's the point? Although come to think of it, you could say that about every politician!

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 26 Apr 2019, 16:29

PS The most interesting panelist I've seen recently was Ash 'I'm literally a communist' Sarkar. I don't agree with her politically, but she was more compelling and had more charisma than everyone else on the panel put together.

Striker
FISO Knight
Posts: 10661
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:32

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Striker » 26 Apr 2019, 17:14

+1

Although occasionally she can be a bit of a pain in discussions, generally she is excellent and very impressive for one so young. I'm guessing that she'll become a Labour MP in the not too distant future even though she isn't officially a politician yet. Also she has one characteristic which the many politicians lack, a sense of humour.

User avatar
Billy Whiz
Rhubarb Crumbledore
Posts: 7082
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:26
Location: Cloud cuckoo land

Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 26 Apr 2019, 17:56

Much the same could be said of Grace Blakeley, who writes on economics for the New Statesman (the latter much in the news at the moment, albeit not in a particularly good way - but an otherwise excellent magazine).

View Latest: 1 Day View Your posts
Post Reply

Return to “News & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests