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F1 specific (chit chat thread)

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 02 Dec 2016, 18:54

Good luck to Nico. One was the most he could have hoped for in all honesty.

You would have to say Hamilton would win 3 GPs to Nico's one on average but Lewis has struggled with starts this year and Nico played it very cool under pressure to be fair. It was a ballsy move to take Max at the last GP, which ultimately sealed it. Both have had the best car for the last three years. In race trim, there was sometimes little to chose (as with Lewis and Jense) but in qualifying, Hamilton always looked faster.

As Murf said, who's wins the gift of a lifetime ?

Well Alonso has been mentioned but with new regs for 2017, a little birdie tells me the Mclaren may be sniffing round the front after seasons in the wilderness.

Maybe Wehrlein but isn;t there a query over his temperament ? Why did Force India choose Ocon over him ? More sponsorship cash ?

So, after years of big names hogging the top seays - Kimi has a been lucky IMO - we've now got a golden ticket up for grabs. I'm gonna throw Carlos Sainz's name into the hat :wink:

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Re: RE: Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by BobMem » 02 Dec 2016, 22:49

forestfan wrote:... there's another recent British world champion with no immediate plans, could he be tempted?
Would love to see Button reverse his retirement plan!

Nico really reinforcing the German stereotype:
"my dream is to win the world championship"
"right, in the bag. No need to drive any more"

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Re: RE: Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 03 Dec 2016, 11:49

BobMem wrote:
forestfan wrote:... there's another recent British world champion with no immediate plans, could he be tempted?
Would love to see Button reverse his retirement plan!

Nico really reinforcing the German stereotype:
"my dream is to win the world championship"
"right, in the bag. No need to drive any more"
Hmmm, Schumacher with seven world titles and Vettel with four ? Nico is probably at lot nicer but doesn't rank with his compatriots on the talent level. A very good griver, not quite a great one.

Better to burn out than fade away, as someone said once. I think Jenson's great and I love to see the Brits do well but I have to accept he's had his moment and young Stoffel Vandoorme will probably be 1/2 a sec quicker, I reckon. You need fresh blood. Verstappen, Vandoorme, Stroll, Ocon and so on. Massa has gone and as I said, Kimi is lucky to be around. If Mclaren doesn't work out next year, Fernando will be on his way. With the now retired Webber, these guys were all once the next big thing but they've had their time. Roll on the next generation.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Mystery » 03 Dec 2016, 12:04

I'm not entirely convinced the next generation is much cop though. Verstappen is OK and at least knows how to race but doesn't have amazing pure speed.

Wehrlein is a converted sportscar driver and was reasonably well paced by Ocon. Vandoorne looks strong and is probably the best of the lot.

Lance Stroll is a rich kid who's had two separate race bans in the past couple of years, and of Williams' simulator time this year. He'll be well prepared if nothing else. Did I mention his daddy's rich?

Looking down the formulae they'll all a bit meh. George Russell has stepped in to a Gp3 car and looked the part this week. But it's a pretty rubbish bunch.

I'd genuinely take Button if he can be made available for a single season then decide between Russell, Verstappen and Wehrlein for 2018.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 26 Jun 2017, 13:50

Time to revisit this thread.

Seb lost the plot yesterday. Big time. I thought Lewis may have slowed down watching live but what happened afterwards was inexcusable.

Easily the best race though this year

8-)

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by murf » 26 Jun 2017, 16:24

Went from destruction derby to boring procession to farce to aggro to exciting.

More interesting than usual but still miss real racing.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by forestfan » 26 Jun 2017, 18:12

murf wrote:Went from destruction derby to boring procession to farce to aggro to exciting.

More interesting than usual but still miss real racing.
I think that the golden age of "real racing" is something of a myth, at least in the 30 years or so I've watched it - there's nearly always been one or two teams miles ahead of the rest in terms of pace, and always will be unless they switch to a single engine manufacturer format (at which point it wouldn't be F1 as the other major manufacturers wouldn't stick around just to design a chassis for a rival's engine).

I've maintained for years that the real enemies of exciting F1 are cost-cutting incentives for reliability and tarmac run-off areas. If cars regularly break down, crash and spin into gravel traps then the outcome is a lot more unpredictable. It should be attritional, no more than 50% of cars should finish a race on average. Obviously the aerodynamics play a part and necessitate artificial means of allowing overtaking, but we probably wouldn't notice that much difference if they changed that and scrapped DRS, apart from having the knowledge it was "genuine" overtaking going on!

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 26 Jun 2017, 20:00

Aerodynamics have played a part since those ridiculous high spoilers of the late 60s and then Colin Chapman changed the sport for good with the "ground effect" Lotus 78.

2007 and 2008 were both golden years for F1. Since then it's been pretty processional. But I can recall 1984 and 1988/89, both processional apart from inter team rivalry. The Schumacher years of the early noughties and then Red Bull/Mercedes dominance since 2010 have been dull, odd race apart. Jim Clark drove into the distance quite a bit in the mid 60s too, I believe.

You're never going to get a Monza 70 again but there will be the odd decent race.

I can never not watch a race. I'm always drawn to it.

Anyway, back to the point. Seb behaved a pit like a petulant kid - surely a penalty in next race and a severe rollicking ? No denying he's fast but there was a touch of the Schumacher's about that move :?

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by unc.si. » 31 Oct 2017, 16:06

Watched my first F1 race for years a couple of weeks ago - the US GP, which I just happened to come across on the TV.

Was less dull than I was expecting it to be - nice start from Vettel, nice overtake from Hamilton and some exciting racing from Verstappen, culminating in a great overtake on the last bend then a farcical relegation.

Mexico was all over (in terms of the World Championships) inside the first 60 seconds, but again overall more exciting that I was expecting.

Anyway, this isn't a veiled slagging off of F1, as I said it was better than I'd expected given that I'm not a big fan of watching motorsport.

Just wondering what people think of Hamilton. No mention of his 4th title on here and no posts on the SPOTY thread. He doesn't seem that well liked, although comes across as a reasonably decent guy (to someone who knows nothing about the sport). I guess he's a bit dull, but then Damon Hill and Nigel Mansell weren't exactly the life and soul, and they seemed pretty popular at the time.

BBC is bigging him up, and he seems to be the most successful British F1 driver of all time and has the most number of pole positions, so why the lack of love for Lewis? Is it simply that the sport isn't on the BBC/ITV any more or is he secretly a giant twit?

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Tacalabala » 31 Oct 2017, 16:37

He is the greatest British F1 driver of all time, no doubt about that. He will be a shoe in for SPOTY this time I should think, can't think that there is anyone else other than Mo Farah? I think people find his showbiz lifestyle a bit distasteful but really what do you expect, he is an F1 driver?! F1 drivers always have the car argument thrown at them, but that's not their problem. And he is more articulate than most people on TV.

F1 is just not as good as it was in the Schumacher vs Häkkinen era, certainly I remember there being more competition from the midfield, and putting races in places like Russia and Azerbaijan is not going to appeal to a British or European audience. Hopefully Liberty will address this and the TV issue.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by unc.si. » 31 Oct 2017, 17:16

It did seem a bit like the commentators knew exactly how fast each car would lap on each set of tyres and which circuits each car would be fast or slow on. Seems to take a bit of the fun out of it.

One thing that I did notice was the speed of the pit stops. They hardly even seem to stop - I was looking for the stopwatch to see the pitstop time and they'd finished. How the eff do they jack the car up, change the wheels, lower it and get out of the way in 2 seconds??

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by murf » 31 Oct 2017, 21:04

Tacalabala wrote:He is the greatest British F1 driver of all time, no doubt about that. He will be a shoe in for SPOTY this time I should think, can't think that there is anyone else other than Mo Farah? I think people find his showbiz lifestyle a bit distasteful but really what do you expect, he is an F1 driver?! F1 drivers always have the car argument thrown at them, but that's not their problem. And he is more articulate than most people on TV.

F1 is just not as good as it was in the Schumacher vs Häkkinen era, certainly I remember their been more competition from the midfield, and putting races in places like Russia and Azerbaijan is not going to appeal to a British or European audience. Hopefully Liberty will address this and the TV issue.
No doubt?

Read up on Jim Clark for one.

Hamilton is truly a great driver and I'd gove him SPOTY but his better stats are largely based on longevity.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by forestfan » 31 Oct 2017, 21:18

murf wrote:
31 Oct 2017, 21:04
Tacalabala wrote:He is the greatest British F1 driver of all time, no doubt about that. He will be a shoe in for SPOTY this time I should think, can't think that there is anyone else other than Mo Farah? I think people find his showbiz lifestyle a bit distasteful but really what do you expect, he is an F1 driver?! F1 drivers always have the car argument thrown at them, but that's not their problem. And he is more articulate than most people on TV.

F1 is just not as good as it was in the Schumacher vs Häkkinen era, certainly I remember their been more competition from the midfield, and putting races in places like Russia and Azerbaijan is not going to appeal to a British or European audience. Hopefully Liberty will address this and the TV issue.
No doubt?

Read up on Jim Clark for one.

Hamilton is truly a great driver and I'd gove him SPOTY but his better stats are largely based on longevity.
Well, comparing with Clark's era is pretty meaningless really, the cars and the risks they took just weren't comparable, it's the same sport in name only.

Having the best stats is, to an extent, about being in the right car at the right time (Alonso could have been up there had he not made so many poorly timed team moves) but you need the talent to get there and stay there. Hamilton has to be in the top four of "modern era" F1 drivers alongside Senna, Prost and Schumacher.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 31 Oct 2017, 21:33

Congrats Lewis. Four world titles 8-) . That's some going.

For me the season has petered out badly but Seb and Ferrari blew it themselves. It was nicely poised early on. The Ferrai suited some tracks, the Merc others. But then we had Seb's Schumacher esque chop on Max in Singapore, followed by the mechanical issues. It's all been a bit of an anti climax, with only Max's exploits to alleviate the boredom. Maybe a bit of karma for Seb driving into Lewis earlier in the season.

As for Lewis himself, there a 50:50 split on those that love or loathe him. Check out the BBC F1 forum for a start. I much preferred the nerdy, fresh faced racer of 2008 to the blingy, tattooed superstar 2017 version. The young whippersnapper who had Alonso up in arms and then pipped Massa to that epic 2008 championship finale. If there's one critiscm it's his arrogance. Seb is the same. Also the fact he couldn't be arsed to take place in the London GP parade along with the other 21 drivers was a real blow to his UK fans. People don't like the fact he lives in Monaco but to be fair, so does Jenson. From Stewart to Mansell to Coulthard, British GP drivers have lived in tax havens. it does irk me although I understood Jackie Stewart moving to Switzerland when he was paying 98% tax and risking his life for the exchequer. On the positive side, Lewis has definitely matured and I was really impressed with him handing a place back to Bottas in an earlier GP. That was maturity. In fact, he's gone into "overdrive" the second half of the season and hit a new high. Almost looks unbeatable,.....although there's a new whippersnapper on the block.

He deserves to be knighted. Unquestionably. A four time world champ. We don't get many of those. Plus there could be more. He has come from a relatively normal working class background in Stevenage and made it to the pinnacle of his sport. That's a great role model.

It dd get me thinking where he would go on an all time list of British drivers. Definitely above the the one time GP champs - Hawthorn, Hunt, Mansell (who with luck could have had three), Damon Hill and Button. Then I'd put Graham Hill (6th), all bravery and determination - similar to Mansell - to win two world titles. Then I'd put John Surtees (5th). Only one slight lucky title but world champ on two wheels and four. That is unlikely to be seen again. I think there's a bit of gulf then to the top four, who could all make it into a greatest top 10 of all time for all nationalities. These would be Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart and Lewis Hamilton. I would also add Stirling Moss, despite that awful stat of him not winning the world title. I suppose for this reason you have to put Moss 4th. So Hamilton is in the top three. I can only go by what I've read so it's difficult to compare different eras :? Arguments can be put for all three but if Hamilton makes it five titles, it may put the argument to bed.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 31 Oct 2017, 21:44

murf wrote:
31 Oct 2017, 21:04
Tacalabala wrote:He is the greatest British F1 driver of all time, no doubt about that. He will be a shoe in for SPOTY this time I should think, can't think that there is anyone else other than Mo Farah? I think people find his showbiz lifestyle a bit distasteful but really what do you expect, he is an F1 driver?! F1 drivers always have the car argument thrown at them, but that's not their problem. And he is more articulate than most people on TV.

F1 is just not as good as it was in the Schumacher vs Häkkinen era, certainly I remember their been more competition from the midfield, and putting races in places like Russia and Azerbaijan is not going to appeal to a British or European audience. Hopefully Liberty will address this and the TV issue.
No doubt?

Read up on Jim Clark for one.

Hamilton is truly a great driver and I'd gove him SPOTY but his better stats are largely based on longevity.
10 and above wins but also check out the win percentage per race :-

1 SCHUMACHER Michael91 29.64
2 HAMILTON Lewis 62 30.10
3 PROST Alain 51 25.63
4 VETTEL Sebastian 46 23.47
5 SENNA Ayrton 41 25.47
6 ALONSO Fernando 32 11.07
7 MANSELL Nigel 31 16.58
8 STEWART Jackie 27 27.27
9 CLARK Jim 25 34.72
10 LAUDA Niki 25 14.62
11 FANGIO Juan Manuel 24 47.06
12 PIQUET Nelson 23 11.27
13 ROSBERG Nico 23 11.17
14 HILL Damon 22 19.13
15 HAKKINEN Mika 20 12.42
16 RAIKKONEN Kimi 20 7.43
17 MOSS Stirling 16 24.24
18 BUTTON Jenson 15 4.90
19 HILL Graham 14 8.00
20 BRABHAM Jack 14 11.38
21 FITTIPALDI Emerson 14 9.72
22 ASCARI Alberto 13 40.63
23 COULTHARD David 13 5.28
24 ANDRETTI Mario 12 9.38
25 REUTEMANN Carlos 12 8.22
26 JONES Alan 12 10.34
27 VILLENEUVE Jacques 11 6.75
28 MASSA Felipe 11 4.12
29 BARRICHELLO Rubens 11 3.41
30 HUNT James 10 10.87
31 PETERSON Ronnie 10 8.13
32 SCHECKTER Jody 10 8.93
33 BERGER Gerhard 10 4.76

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Tacalabala » 31 Oct 2017, 22:00

Schumi percentage is remarkable considering how long his first stint in the sport was... and then his second winless stint dragging down the number.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 26 Aug 2018, 10:11

Bottom four in qualifying for Spa :-

17 Mclaren
18 Williams
19 Williams
20 Mclaren

:( :( :(

So flippin depressing. Ok, so you may point to Williams's driver line up but Alonso is definitely no slouch. A sad day for British motorsport. WIlliams will presumably lose a big chunk of sponsorhsip if Lance Stroll's old man invests in the (new) Force India team. Shame. Could be going the same way as Tyrrell, Brabham, Lotus :(

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Tacalabala » 26 Aug 2018, 10:20

I suspect so, in fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if a merger isn't looked at if it goes on much longer. You have to be a bit nuts to invest in F1 at the moments, far too much money needed to get anywhere, at least with football provided the club is managed probably on the corporate and sporting sides, you do get out roughly what you put in.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by forestfan » 26 Aug 2018, 10:27

bluenosey wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 10:11
Bottom four in qualifying for Spa :-

17 Mclaren
18 Williams
19 Williams
20 Mclaren

:( :( :(

So flippin depressing. Ok, so you may point to Williams's driver line up but Alonso is definitely no slouch. A sad day for British motorsport. WIlliams will presumably lose a big chunk of sponsorhsip if Lance Stroll's old man invests in the (new) Force India team. Shame. Could be going the same way as Tyrrell, Brabham, Lotus :(
They both passed up opportunities to become works teams in the last decade or so, although the names may well have disappeared under such scenarios.

Hard to see where they go from here though. It’s tough as an independent team, relying on engine deals and scraping together investment. F1 doesn’t offer any concessions to tradition and history, as the demise of the other names you mention illustrates. I don’t think anyone really knows what the solution to the cost and competitiveness issue is in the sport as a whole, they might have to allow full customer/satellite teams or be faced with 10 or 12 car grids in a few years’ time.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Tacalabala » 26 Aug 2018, 10:44

forestfan wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 10:27
bluenosey wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 10:11
Bottom four in qualifying for Spa :-

17 Mclaren
18 Williams
19 Williams
20 Mclaren

:( :( :(

So flippin depressing. Ok, so you may point to Williams's driver line up but Alonso is definitely no slouch. A sad day for British motorsport. WIlliams will presumably lose a big chunk of sponsorhsip if Lance Stroll's old man invests in the (new) Force India team. Shame. Could be going the same way as Tyrrell, Brabham, Lotus :(
They both passed up opportunities to become works teams in the last decade or so, although the names may well have disappeared under such scenarios.

Hard to see where they go from here though. It’s tough as an independent team, relying on engine deals and scraping together investment. F1 doesn’t offer any concessions to tradition and history, as the demise of the other names you mention illustrates. I don’t think anyone really knows what the solution to the cost and competitiveness issue is in the sport as a whole, they might have to allow full customer/satellite teams or be faced with 10 or 12 car grids in a few years’ time.
I've thought for a long time that they should allow however much testing you want, but on the Monday after the last race all the cars become property of F1 and can be viewed by anyone that wants to, including all the other teams. It would a) drive down costs as it simply wouldn't be worth developing technology which only has a max 12 month competitive advantage, b) encourage new teams as they could conceivably run with the previous year's winning car right off the bat. It might be worth doing away with the two car set up for teams and allowing single driver or +3 teams, though you'd have to adjust the constructors championship to take account of that.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Mystery » 26 Aug 2018, 14:08

They did something sort of similar-ish in MotoGP a few years back called the Claiming Rule. If you wanted relaxed concessions around testing and fuel you could bring a modified Superbike but it's engine could be bought ("claimed") by any other team for a fixed cost. All that happened were that Claiming Rule Teams were so slow to effectively be another class in the event.

In F1, you'd lose manufacturer interest because there would no longer be any benefit in developing and researching anything so the already dwindling cash available would shrink further.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by Tacalabala » 26 Aug 2018, 15:10

But a clean slate rule, if we can call it that, would apply to everyone regardless of their set up. F1 should really be able to attract and retain luxury and mass production car makers like Ford and VW. The cost and the in-built advantage Ferrari have are big stumbling block for them. The series should be as much about showing how the technology gets into cars me and you can buy, and about the drivers, as many of them and as many different characters as possible.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by forestfan » 26 Aug 2018, 15:34

It’s a real tightrope for the new owners to walk. Lean too far one way and it will end up being Formula Ferrari or Formula Mercedes, with a load of off the shelf cars. But go the other way and it will be just too expensive for any independent teams to survive, and the weaker manufacturers might still be lost as the gaps are too big for them to bridge.

I’d love to see 26-car grids again, and 40-car qualifying fields... but apart from reverting to 80s technology I can’t really see how it can happen!

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by forestfan » 26 Aug 2018, 15:53

And to anyone still moaning about the “halo”, by the way, looks like it might just have saved Charles Leclerc’s life today.

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Re: F1 specific (chit chat thread)

Post by bluenosey » 01 Sep 2018, 11:00

forestfan wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 15:53
And to anyone still moaning about the “halo”, by the way, looks like it might just have saved Charles Leclerc’s life today.
No doubt it made Marcus Ericsson feel a bit safer too :-

https://news.sky.com/video/square-marc ... 11487270

Whilst I had my doubts at first, it's proving it's worth already.

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