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TFF 2018/19

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johnmc
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by johnmc »

Hi Andy,
Good to see you back threading.
I'm now looking at a strategy, thanks to your insight; on defenders PPM.

Thanks Pal.

p.s. Don't suppose you know a couple of enabling diamonds 2.0 mill-2.5 mill range. :oops:

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blahblah
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by blahblah »

I tend to go for this season's prices and last season's points then some +/- on last season's points

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12345678
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

probably comes to much the same thing via a different route blahblah, re everton a new cb, maybe mina?

cheers john mc,

just the odd post if it means something to me, will post as much this year as the last. fiso doesn't really work for me but hopefully tff read this. agree or disagree with the points they can't then say they hadn't thought of them or considered them ;)

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12345678
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

johnmc wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 15:12

p.s. Don't suppose you know a couple of enabling diamonds 2.0 mill-2.5 mill range. :oops:
i wouldn't tell you if i did, you have to draw the line somewhere ;) i've always preferred mf enablers tbh.

sometimes they emerge just before season start anyways.

johnmc
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by johnmc »

12345678 wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 15:27
johnmc wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 15:12

p.s. Don't suppose you know a couple of enabling diamonds 2.0 mill-2.5 mill range. :oops:
i wouldn't tell you if i did, you have to draw the line somewhere ;) i've always preferred mf enablers tbh.

sometimes they emerge just before season start anyways.
:lol: :wink:

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Darbyand
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Darbyand »

There's a big challenge this year in terms of the world cup hangover. Mourinho has already said no-one who played in the world cup will feature in the first game....I'd take that with a pinch of salt for the likes of de Gea who's been home for a fortnight and Fred who didn't play. But the ones who've gone deep into the tournament might well be used sparingly before the first international break. Apply that across the clubs and you've got the likes of Kane, Lukaku, Firmino, Hazard, KDB, Sterling, Alli, Walker, Vertonghen etc etc who went as far as the QFs or better, and possibly become unreliable choices.

Who's been sat on the beach all summer? Aubamayang, Sanchez, Mahrez, Sane, Alonso, Dave, VVD, Davies.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Mystery »

happyhoppy wrote:How do you create an excel download from the player list?

With columns?

PLAYER TEAM PRICE
Just leaving this here so I can send a reply when home in case no one else has

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by blahblah »

A simple Crtl C from the Stats Centre and then Ctrl V in spreadsheet works - I have done it by Position, so I can put GK, DEF etc in each row more simply.

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Darkish
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Darkish »

It's flaw logic about moving block defenses and PPM isn't a great metric to use.

The defenders are cheaper than forwards (let's just say half the price). If they both have the same PPM then if you transfer a forward you will get on average twice as much as the defender (despite them both having the same PPM).

The block defence is gr8 for WC as multiple teams mean you are after variance and can over this with multiple entrants. This isn't the same here with less transfers and more matches. The game could be better but moaning because it is not tailored to your own preferences doesn't help.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by blahblah »

12345678 wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 13:27 so 21 players, 2 strikers, 3 midfielders, 13 defenders! 3 goalkeepers. 16-5 in favour of defensive players!!!
For the Full list with this season's prices and last's points it is even more skewed with 4 in the top 21.
1 MID Salah, M LIV
2 DEF Alonso, M CHE
3 DEF Azpilicueta, C CHE
4 GK de Gea, D MUN
5 GK Moraes, E MCY
6 DEF Rudiger, A CHE
7 GK Lossl, J HUD
8 MID Mahrez, R MCY
9 DEF Smalling, C MUN
10 GK Ryan, M BTN
11 DEF Trippier, K TOT
12 MID Sterling, R MCY
13 DEF Davies, B TOT
14 GK Fabianski, L WHM
15 DEF Vertonghen, J TOT
16 GK Foster, B WAT
17 DEF Valencia, A MUN
18 GK Lloris, H TOT
19 DEF Otamendi, N MCY
20 DEF Bertrand, R SOT
21 FOR Kane, H TOT

In descending order, and Salah won;t get close to that this season? Will he? (216 points will match Kane, if Kane replicates last season)

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by blahblah »

Darkish wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:55 It's flaw logic about moving block defenses and PPM isn't a great metric to use.

The defenders are cheaper than forwards (let's just say half the price). If they both have the same PPM then if you transfer a forward you will get on average twice as much as the defender (despite them both having the same PPM).

The block defence is gr8 for WC as multiple teams mean you are after variance and can over this with multiple entrants. This isn't the same here with less transfers and more matches. The game could be better but moaning because it is not tailored to your own preferences doesn't help.
There was a load of debate around this years ago and it got a bit obscure with Base Prices being involved.....

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by happyhoppy »

blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:00 A simple Crtl C from the Stats Centre and then Ctrl V in spreadsheet works - I have done it by Position, so I can put GK, DEF etc in each row more simply.
Aha, stats centre!

I was doing it from the transfer page lol

Job done thanks, and thanks Mystery too.

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Mystery
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Mystery »

happyhoppy wrote:
blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:00 A simple Crtl C from the Stats Centre and then Ctrl V in spreadsheet works - I have done it by Position, so I can put GK, DEF etc in each row more simply.
Aha, stats centre!

I was doing it from the transfer page lol

Job done thanks, and thanks Mystery too.
Ah yeah. I sorted something out a season or two ago before the stats centre had that player list.

t.gridley
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by t.gridley »

Did I read this correct?
2.5k for 2nd place, really?
First place down to 40k
40 transfers.
To that excited tbh.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by t.gridley »

t.gridley wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:27 Did I read this correct?
2.5k for 2nd place, really?
First place down to 40k
40 transfers.
Not that excited tbh, pay to play as well.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by forestfan »

Who really plays for the size of the (unlikely) prizes though?

I don’t like any of the other main games around these days so will stick with this I think... now the World Cup is over I can bring myself to look over the player list!

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by happyhoppy »

It’s all about the super leagues isn’t it? Very slim chance you might win it overall so not that important in the grand scheme of things. Long time since I was in contention mind.

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Kentish Womble
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Kentish Womble »

t.gridley wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:27 Did I read this correct?
2.5k for 2nd place, really?
First place down to 40k
40 transfers.
To that excited tbh.
Newspaper sales are well down and assuming the relevant advertising is then this must be one of their biggest earners.

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12345678
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:13
Darkish wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:55 It's flaw logic about moving block defenses and PPM isn't a great metric to use.

The defenders are cheaper than forwards (let's just say half the price). If they both have the same PPM then if you transfer a forward you will get on average twice as much as the defender (despite them both having the same PPM).

The block defence is gr8 for WC as multiple teams mean you are after variance and can over this with multiple entrants. This isn't the same here with less transfers and more matches. The game could be better but moaning because it is not tailored to your own preferences doesn't help.
There was a load of debate around this years ago and it got a bit obscure with Base Prices being involved.....
not moaning because of preference, pointing out if the game becomes more about defence than offence then it will simply (in my view) die!

that said i actually agree with a lot of what you say, PPM isnt the be all and end all, your point re transfer value of a striker points is of course partially correct. the problem is that premium defenders are about 55-60% of premium strikers but the gain of premium strikers is way way less than that. take aguero 6.75 @6.8 last year and alonso 5.11 @4.3 last year. its pretty obvious that per million you are getting about 1 point per appearance for aguero but about 1.20 for alonso. per transfer your gain on aguero is only about 30% whereas the price is over 25% more than that for aguero. both had decent seasons, you can look at other match ups but don't think that is a bad example of the norm.

if you had read what i had posted in this and the international thread you will see that i fully accept that it doesn't have anywhere near the same effect in epl as wc/cl. however once you reach the point where transfers are needed for injuries/bringing in obvious bargains/some obvious striker moves, then you will have some left. what i am saying is that when you reach that point, maybe typically 20-30 transfers then you need another way to burn them off, one option is the fa cup mismatches but these days not too many appeal, the other efficient way of doing it is defence rotation. because there is the multiplication effect over a short period (when you hit it right) if there are few or any big offensive defenders then block rotation is the way forward. some ways of reducing it have been mentioned, another method used in the past is extra points for defender goals, you could include assists i guess too.

lets make myself extremely clear once an for all why i am posting this and what my thoughts are.

i believe defensive rotation is boring and the ONLY way to realistically win tff world cup/european cup games and almost certain to figure in tff champions league. re epl if transfers increase then for the reasons outlined above they are best used on defensive rotation. note i am not saying you can't win tff epl without defensive rotation but i am saying it is considerably more likely to be a factor in future as the rules stand. (not even saying it couldn't happen in the past -andy edwards did it once on a key block rotation that reaped huge rewards)

re your figures you would be right if the average premium striker scored double the average defender, however look at the figures quoted above in the thread and tell me how likely that is to happen! you are correct re the relationship you outline but this needs to be calculated to show the real effect not just a figure of x2 put in the air which is not representative of the state of play.

because most want to play goalscorers the average player will do less well and take up less of the top 100 leaderboard as they will stick to the tried and tested old formula, that no longer works. if the game is boring and becomes more of a regular tff top 100 players game they will lose entries. i'm not certain what will happen in that respect as it will vary from year to year on the odd freak score/freak pricing. what i am saying is that in an average year that is where we are heading.

it's all very well and good adding transfers for webpage hits etc but if players withdraw/reduce entries it is not without a real cost, the ultimate being the games disappearance which i believe they are hinting at in the last survey.

so basically i am not moaning but saying the game is becoming more and more about defence rather than offence. i believe most players will a) find it boring and b) do less well because they fail to appreciate it. in turn i think that will lead to falling entries which may herald the end of the game. if you disagree with my take on the figures and implications of them that is fine but don't tell me i am moaning and pushing forward my own preferences when i am outlining where i believe we are now and where we are going. examples of double scores for premium strikers over premium defenders are simply unrealistic https://fantasysports.org.uk/tff2017-2018/points.php#

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Merlins_Apprentice »

The problem for me Andy is that you seem on a one man mission to add as much negativity to the TFF game as you can.

I may be well off the mark as you will no doubt tell me, but you don't seem to put the same vigorous effort into pulling apart the other games as you do with TFF

No doubt we will continue to disagree but I find myself enjoying fantasy footy more than ever lately...

Not sure why you think they are hinting at the games disappearance in the last survey, i see no evidence of this - just them wanting to engage the casual player more than the "elite" through the surveys. The problem with forums like this, of which, yes i belong , is that generally you will have a small minority with similar views, each generally backing each other up, giving the impression of a majority opinion when in fact the opinion probably accounts for less than a percent of players

I happen to hate the way the mirror has gone to a mobile only game - nothing like a nice PC to play the game on - but i suspect if i dug deeper there are plenty of young 20 somethings who love it and would never want to play a game on a PC

We are probably old farts now :)

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12345678
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

[
[/quote]

There was a load of debate around this years ago and it got a bit obscure with Base Prices being involved.....
[/quote]

agree blahblah, there is some scope to complicate it further. the base price issue has some merit, however with as many transfers as there are generally as darkish hints at it becomes about opportunity per million if you like in terms of transferring the team around + strength of the solid base of the team, additionally the multiplication of hitting a solid defensive run via transfers has it's place now. i won't go into more detail as i am happy to help the average player but not say the top 100 players ;)

therefore i won't elaborate on how i intend to adjust the way that i play the game this year.

i still feel very strongly that figures already given show how defence is favoured over offence in tff now and the implications of that for playing the game and the sustainablility of the game.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

Merlins_Apprentice wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 21:09 The problem for me Andy is that you seem on a one man mission to add as much negativity to the TFF game as you can.

I may be well off the mark as you will no doubt tell me, but you don't seem to put the same vigorous effort into pulling apart the other games as you do with TFF

No doubt we will continue to disagree but I find myself enjoying fantasy footy more than ever lately...

Not sure why you think they are hinting at the games disappearance in the last survey, i see no evidence of this - just them wanting to engage the casual player more than the "elite" through the surveys. The problem with forums like this, of which, yes i belong , is that generally you will have a small minority with similar views, each generally backing each other up, giving the impression of a majority opinion when in fact the opinion probably accounts for less than a percent of players

I happen to hate the way the mirror has gone to a mobile only game - nothing like a nice PC to play the game on - but i suspect if i dug deeper there are plenty of young 20 somethings who love it and would never want to play a game on a PC

We are probably old farts now :)
lol, yeah i dunno, i think the mirror game has had it really, tbh it isn't really their game just the guys who have designed FiT. i looked at it for a short while and thought no nay never ;)

in the past i have had a go at other games when i thought they had gone wrong, sdt, mirror, times, mail, ofl. sdt have improved their game no end and other than fpl is by far and away the most popular game. the other four have gone. i've not had a go at tff in the past as there was no need.

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12345678
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:09
12345678 wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 13:27 so 21 players, 2 strikers, 3 midfielders, 13 defenders! 3 goalkeepers. 16-5 in favour of defensive players!!!
For the Full list with this season's prices and last's points it is even more skewed with 4 in the top 21.
1 MID Salah, M LIV
2 DEF Alonso, M CHE
3 DEF Azpilicueta, C CHE
4 GK de Gea, D MUN
5 GK Moraes, E MCY
6 DEF Rudiger, A CHE
7 GK Lossl, J HUD
8 MID Mahrez, R MCY
9 DEF Smalling, C MUN
10 GK Ryan, M BTN
11 DEF Trippier, K TOT
12 MID Sterling, R MCY
13 DEF Davies, B TOT
14 GK Fabianski, L WHM
15 DEF Vertonghen, J TOT
16 GK Foster, B WAT
17 DEF Valencia, A MUN
18 GK Lloris, H TOT
19 DEF Otamendi, N MCY
20 DEF Bertrand, R SOT
21 FOR Kane, H TOT

In descending order, and Salah won;t get close to that this season? Will he? (216 points will match Kane, if Kane replicates last season)
i wouldn't say that adds weight to the argument, they just make larger amendments to mf & str than def, bargains/VFM players will still appear.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by quizking »

Hello to all, and cheer up andy! Thought would take a break from the proms to add some info and opinion;

Firstly, the mirror stopped running ff at end of 16/17 (even though you might still see a mirror logo on some app sites for FiT and indeed on some of FiT's own pages, they are slack at updating), and the mail used FiT last term (and for their world cup game this time around), but even that relationship hasn't worked out. Both mirror and mail have suggested (well, I asked them directly) that they might be back with new games this season; no indication of providers or maybe even in-house, but I would think more likely that games will return seeing as there is increased interest in football and hence perhaps ff thanks to the england relative success in world cup this year. Newspapers and indeed many other businesses, media and otherwise, will I'm sure be looking to jump on that bandwagon.

Some time ago I looked back on the forum to find a quote from andy saying how he would most likely stop playing ff, would cut down his number of entries and the whole game was sure to die soon. Found it (will still be there somewhere, and there were similar quotes before this iteration of fiso), saying exactly the same in 2006 - then andy was referring to ofl, which as a company is still just about holding on 12 years later, only doing auction games but carried on with their regular ff game until season before last anyway.

The "threat" to ff from daily fantasy games hasn't materialised imho - almost all new companies having been killed off by draftkings who seem to have a control of that market, though others may know differently (and legal status of betting in the US may soon pull the rug from much of draftkings main market as well).

I would guess that ff newspaper games will still be around for a little while yet - or at least for as long as the print presses are running; the newspapers themselves have lost % sales more than they have % ff players.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Merlins_Apprentice »

quizking wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 21:56 Hello to all, and cheer up andy! Thought would take a break from the proms to add some info and opinion;

Firstly, the mirror stopped running ff at end of 16/17 (even though you might still see a mirror logo on some app sites for FiT and indeed on some of FiT's own pages, they are slack at updating), and the mail used FiT last term (and for their world cup game this time around), but even that relationship hasn't worked out. Both mirror and mail have suggested (well, I asked them directly) that they might be back with new games this season; no indication of providers or maybe even in-house, but I would think more likely that games will return seeing as there is increased interest in football and hence perhaps ff thanks to the england relative success in world cup this year. Newspapers and indeed many other businesses, media and otherwise, will I'm sure be looking to jump on that bandwagon.
Mirror teamed up with that dabble for the world cup for a 5 aside fantasy game

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/w ... n-12705156

I never played it so no idea if any good

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Darkish »

blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:13
Darkish wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:55 It's flaw logic about moving block defenses and PPM isn't a great metric to use.

The defenders are cheaper than forwards (let's just say half the price). If they both have the same PPM then if you transfer a forward you will get on average twice as much as the defender (despite them both having the same PPM).

The block defence is gr8 for WC as multiple teams mean you are after variance and can over this with multiple entrants. This isn't the same here with less transfers and more matches. The game could be better but moaning because it is not tailored to your own preferences doesn't help.
There was a load of debate around this years ago and it got a bit obscure with Base Prices being involved.....
I can understand the argument about base price when generally talking about formation and how to spend you money. However, when discussing transfers, the only concern is the return of that transfer and that is the points per match. Attackers win this easily. This doesn't apply to the WC due to the number of matches to choose from.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Darkish »

12345678 wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 20:10
lets make myself extremely clear once an for all why i am posting this and what my thoughts are.

i believe defensive rotation is boring and the ONLY way to realistically win tff world cup/european cup games and almost certain to figure in tff champions league. re epl if transfers increase then for the reasons outlined above they are best used on defensive rotation. note i am not saying you can't win tff epl without defensive rotation but i am saying it is considerably more likely to be a factor in future as the rules stand. (not even saying it couldn't happen in the past -andy edwards did it once on a key block rotation that reaped huge rewards)

re your figures you would be right if the average premium striker scored double the average defender, however look at the figures quoted above in the thread and tell me how likely that is to happen! you are correct re the relationship you outline but this needs to be calculated to show the real effect not just a figure of x2 put in the air which is not representative of the state of play.

because most want to play goalscorers the average player will do less well and take up less of the top 100 leaderboard as they will stick to the tried and tested old formula, that no longer works. if the game is boring and becomes more of a regular tff top 100 players game they will lose entries. i'm not certain what will happen in that respect as it will vary from year to year on the odd freak score/freak pricing. what i am saying is that in an average year that is where we are heading.

it's all very well and good adding transfers for webpage hits etc but if players withdraw/reduce entries it is not without a real cost, the ultimate being the games disappearance which i believe they are hinting at in the last survey.

so basically i am not moaning but saying the game is becoming more and more about defence rather than offence. i believe most players will a) find it boring and b) do less well because they fail to appreciate it. in turn i think that will lead to falling entries which may herald the end of the game. if you disagree with my take on the figures and implications of them that is fine but don't tell me i am moaning and pushing forward my own preferences when i am outlining where i believe we are now and where we are going. examples of double scores for premium strikers over premium defenders are simply unrealistic https://fantasysports.org.uk/tff2017-2018
I understand and agree about short-term comps and I don't mind awarding defence anyway.

This is about the upcoming EPL. I accept defenders are better value when setting up your team. However, when making a transfer you should be getting an extra game for that player. The points per game for the top strikers last year was
Aubameyang, P 7.00
Aguero, S 6.75
Kane, H 6.15
Lukaku, R 5.43
Firmino, R 5.00

Alonso only scores 5.11 per match, the next best Chelsea defender is Rudiger at 4.7.

You are better of using transfers between top strikers than block defence, as the season is long enough to use the transfers wisely. Maybe you'll enjoy the season more now and do slightly better (I know you are a good player and better than me) by doing attacking transfers rather than be stuck in your negative mindset.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by blahblah »

I think the Base Price point was to "correct" this.

While the theory of spend 50m on top PpM and you win is simplistic, it is a reasonable guide, imho with a few caveats. I think Henry was the last to blow it.

Season long stats also ignore runs\streaks of points, ie all bar Salah I would guess last season, lol. (But then that could have been the TH point?)


Tbh the stats and Sreadsheet started to pi55 my head off, but I will dig out the best season lng XI, and one of you lot can tell me how well it would have done. Although not predictable I would guess the transfers would have made up the difference re injuries etc.

Actually I have one from the season before somewhere, which may be interesting. ie a within Budget XI that was from "stats".

Also with this stuff it is more about a good solid base to start the season and have something to Transfer around etc.

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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by 12345678 »

Darkish wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 22:15
blahblah wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 18:13
Darkish wrote: 15 Jul 2018, 17:55 It's flaw logic about moving block defenses and PPM isn't a great metric to use.

The defenders are cheaper than forwards (let's just say half the price). If they both have the same PPM then if you transfer a forward you will get on average twice as much as the defender (despite them both having the same PPM).

The block defence is gr8 for WC as multiple teams mean you are after variance and can over this with multiple entrants. This isn't the same here with less transfers and more matches. The game could be better but moaning because it is not tailored to your own preferences doesn't help.
There was a load of debate around this years ago and it got a bit obscure with Base Prices being involved.....
I can understand the argument about base price when generally talking about formation and how to spend you money. However, when discussing transfers, the only concern is the return of that transfer and that is the points per match. Attackers win this easily. This doesn't apply to the WC due to the number of matches to choose from.
good to hear you looking at figures, but the base score of your team is important so optimally on a PPM basis it is important you have a solid base to transfer from, that creates it's own limitations. the multiplication of a successful defensive switch shouldnt be underestimated even in tff epl, hit 5/7 clean sheets and a lot of striker transfers will need to come good, if strikers were scoring twice as much i would of course concede immediately that you are right, but look at aguero vs alonso, kane vs davies. the difference in points per match is actually quite small. it's the same in the world cup bar the hit due to the number of transfers and matches has more effect in the short term. the PPM and better return for strikers should be the same or greater with extra time featuring more often. the big difference is that 1/1 is easier to achieve in terms of c/s than 6/8 say in epl.

it's the impact of hitting clean sheets vs strikers that make the method so effective, if you enter 50 teams you don't care if 40 are blown away by striker revolving teams, you know that your defender revolving will give you a handy lead over them with 10 out of 50.

not saying you are wrong re strikers gaining more in the long run with transfers but saying it is far less than you think and that the base layout of your team is important. also adding that whilst the hit from a defensive clean sheet doesnt have the same impact in tff epl as say tff wc that hitting a good run of clean sheets with the excess transfers may well be the way to go.

i won't comment on formations or precise strategy or players but i do think you are seriously underestimating the value of premium defenders vs premium strikers in tff epl. not saying the impact is the same as in tff wc, which some disputed in a previous thread but saying that the impact is there. the bottom line is tff epl has become more about defence than attack.

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Merlins_Apprentice
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Re: TFF 2018/19

Post by Merlins_Apprentice »

Just spout off your whole game plan for the coming season Andy....you know you want too :))

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