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Patrician's Crystal Ball

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Patrician
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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

Ruth_NZ wrote: 18 Dec 2018, 12:16 Incidentally, VVD being 1m more than Kolasinac uses up a lot of the slack; even if he is worth 1 PPG more that still makes them similar in terms of value.
Yes I agree, it is a good rule of thumb that for every 1M of discretionary budget, you need to gain about 1pt per game. What I would add is that it is very difficult to spend all of your discretionary budget and get that much value out of all of it. All of the players above 9M only generate that if there are captained some of the time. For this reason, if you see an opportunity to spend 1M more to gain 1pt per game, you should take it.

Salah is quite interesting. By my calculations he is the highest expected PPG player, at 6.5pts per game. However to justify 13M I estimate good value is 9.4 pts per game or so. To achieve that you need to captain him 50% of the time. It follows that a Salah team only makes sense paired with one other super premium (all of the super premiums need to be captained some of the time to justify their price).

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by dod »

Jimenez is a weird one. He's getting plenty of points but he just looks such an awful footballer :? .

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

Patrician wrote:
Ruth_NZ wrote: Incidentally, VVD being 1m more than Kolasinac uses up a lot of the slack; even if he is worth 1 PPG more that still makes them similar in terms of value.
Yes I agree, it is a good rule of thumb that for every 1M of discretionary budget, you need to gain about 1pt per game. What I would add is that it is very difficult to spend all of your discretionary budget and get that much value out of all of it. All of the players above 9M only generate that if there are captained some of the time. For this reason, if you see an opportunity to spend 1M more to gain 1pt per game, you should take it.
My ballpark figure is 0.9 ppg per 1m so we are in the self-same district. And I agree with everything else too, in fact I might have written it myself (and actually have done in the past :wink: ). I tend to think that 9-10m is a grey area; you can get players hitting value targets in that range for shorter periods of maybe 6-8 games (maybe with very ideal fixtures or in a purple patch of form) but are unlikely to see it sustain over a whole season. Although Salah out-performed even a strict calculation of value last season by 35 points, assuming you bought at 9m of course.
Patrician wrote:Salah is quite interesting. By my calculations he is the highest expected PPG player, at 6.5pts per game. However to justify 13M I estimate good value is 9.4 pts per game or so. To achieve that you need to captain him 50% of the time. It follows that a Salah team only makes sense paired with one other super premium (all of the super premiums need to be captained some of the time to justify their price).
Yes, indeed. If Salah isn't a go-to captain 40% or more of the time then he's going to have a hard time justifying value. Personally I plan to lose him in GW20 unless he goes so crazy against Newcastle in GW19 that I feel I can't. It's just a shame for me that I didn't captain him for his big haul in GW16, that was simply a result of not having had the time to devote to FPL that I have had in other seasons. I simply hadn't caught up with the fact that Bournemouth were struggling defensively. :(

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

dod wrote: Jimenez is a weird one. He's getting plenty of points but he just looks such an awful footballer :? .
Yeah. Unfortunately I have a terrible weakness for good footballers that don't get many points. :lol:

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Nabs Kebabs »

Ruth_NZ wrote: 18 Dec 2018, 15:20
dod wrote: Jimenez is a weird one. He's getting plenty of points but he just looks such an awful footballer :? .
Yeah. Unfortunately I have a terrible weakness for good footballers that don't get many points. :lol:
Jiminez has surprised me aswell. He is quite possibly the least techincally gifted striker in the league. But his sheer work rate and determination has somehow translated into a solid output of fpl points. I suppose he does have a lot of quality around him and that has gotten the best out of him. I'm finally going to admit that he does infact look a very good option (long term).

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by raoul »

I imagine Jota is on a lot of radars now he is firing. Keep considering removing Jimenez but he just keeps on giving.

I appreciate that Ings has more chance of scoring and more chance of getting two in a game, and maybe he is now fit and maybe Southampton are on the turn, so maybe...

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by ENEMY »

Patrician wrote: 18 Dec 2018, 09:25 Enemy, my tables of top forwards and midfielders

Top Forwards.JPG

Top Mids.JPG
Thanks for the charts, Pat uncle.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by ENEMY »

I'm thinking something like this might be a great team. Any thoughts are welcome.

Fabianski, Button
Alonso, Robertson, TAA, Doherty, WB
Salah, Hazard, Sterling, Sane, Richarlison
Wilson/Arnie, Ings, Kamara

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

@Enemy I think that is certainly a very eye catching team, and if all of the value picks do very well, then it will do great. Personally, I think you have one Premium midfielder too many, and I would rather beef up the defence (i.e. what I have done with my team), but then my decisions have not been working this season, so who am I to say :lol:

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by raoul »

ENEMY wrote: 18 Dec 2018, 19:09 I'm thinking something like this might be a great team. Any thoughts are welcome.

Fabianski, Button
Alonso, Robertson, TAA, Doherty, WB
Salah, Hazard, Sterling, Sane, Richarlison
Wilson/Arnie, Ings, Kamara
Love this team structure. I see midfield as the place for hauls, defence for solidity.

But:

- Steele is Brighton's reserve keeper still, not Button
- Everton defence ... I would go Digne or Keane over TAAO

Other than that, go for it.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Turd Ferguson »

Patrician wrote: 18 Dec 2018, 09:19
It is a good challenge, but remember that my points forecasting approach does not even consider how many CS a team has achieved, and is based on expected goals conceded.
Sorry, you've probably already hashed this out in earlier posts, but how do you calculate expected goals conceded? I notice you have a row in your matrix that indicates you give Liverpool a 61% chance of a clean sheet. Is that their average chance of a clean sheet over the next 6 games? It seems high. As Ruth said, the very best teams struggle to break 50% over the course of a season and I don't see Liverpool's upcoming fixtures as easier than City's who you only give a 55% chance of a clean sheet.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

My calculation for average chance of a clean sheet is...

Average xG conceded so far, then look up the chance of conceding zero goals using a Poisson distribution table.




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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

Patrician wrote: My calculation for average chance of a clean sheet is...
Average xG conceded so far, then look up the chance of conceding zero goals using a Poisson distribution table.
How about the intangible one: how important is it to the manager/players to keep a CS?

You might think that it's always important but priorities are a shifting scale. Nuno apparently spent all last week in training working on compactness and defensive solidity and sent his team out last weekend with the primary aim of keeping a CS, even if they had to subdue their attacking instincts. It worked - basically they did a job on Bournemouth - but it meant that Doherty, for example, restrained himself from marauding forward (his average position was 10 yards deeper than usual and he didn't have a single goal attempt or create a single chance in the whole game). His sole attacking contribution was a single, solitary cross. :lol:

There are countless examples. The fabled Pulis CS machine was based on incessant defensive drills and shape drills to the point where the players could barely remember anything else and were in no doubt whatsoever that the CS was priority number 1. Allardyce similar and Burnley under Dyche similar. Usually those managers try to work on attacking fluidity based on that platform once it is established but if things go wrong (as at Burnley this season) they will retrench and go back to their defensive base platform as Dyche is doing now. I don't really care what xG Burnley have had so far this season; give me any sign that they are getting their basics back and it won't take much for me to bring Tarkowski or Mee in, in fact I am already thinking about it from GW19.

Then there are the top teams for whom defensive prowess is part of their DNA. It was a source of professional pride at Chelsea when JT was captain to keep a CS. Not just 'nice to do' but an important priority, even if they were 4-0 ahead. That, I think, is why City tend to win games well but concede 1 goal in doing so; the CS is less a source of pride to them than scoring a lot of goals is. Twice this season they have won 6-1; with another manager and a slightly different emphasis they might have won those games 4-0. They have the best defence in the PL but they probably don't prioritise the CS as much as many other teams do.

The last area I will mention is the gargantuan defensive performances a team threatened by relegation can sometimes produce if they get into a run. 'Big Dick' Advocaat did this with Sunderland a few seasons back; they basically defended their way to survival and every 45 minutes that went by without a goal conceded made them even more resolute. I remember them arriving at Stamford Bridge the game after they had secured their PL status; they were knackered and got thrashed 3-1 (and it could easily have been 6-1 to be honest). The prize had been achieved for them and they had nothing more to give. The large phallus balloons ('Big Dick') waved all afternoon in the Sunderland section just went to show how pleased the fans were with their team's efforts, although the Chelsea stewards seemed to think these were inappropriate and there were numerous funny occurrences of Sunderland fans wrestling with them over a giant phallus while the Chelsea fans sung "let them have their big dick back". Those are some of the best moments going to football. :)

Anyways... how important is it to the manager/players to keep a CS? And also how important is it to the fans; do they relish their players throwing themselves into blocks and tackles (as at Burnley) or are they more the 'prawn sandwich' brigade who are mainly interested in seeing goals? Because the fans' attitude strengthens or weakens the intent of the players as well. Not anything you can put in a model but a significant factor nevertheless.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

Sure, and I am happy to concede that no model will ever be able to adjust its forecasts to take into account a change in tactics or focus for a team. It has to work with historic data, make an estimate and then we apply human judgement to overrule what that tells us if we think we have some greater insight.

Taking Liverpool as a case in point though, I believe that Klopp has indeed increased the priority on defensive solidity this year, and that is showing up in the numbers. Agree on Man City, they are less fussed about shipping the odd goal as they know they will score so many more. That is why I have switched to a Liverpool based defence from City.


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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

Sure, I wasn't criticising, just mentioning an 'intangible' that you have to factor in by judgement.

Liverpool are an interesting one, I was thinking about them when I wrote but didn't mention them. I do remember looking up Klopp's defensive record at BvBD when he arrived at Liverpool and it was actually pretty good. So I tend to agree with you; Klopp actually likes a balanced team attack/defence and he now has better tools. I expected Liverpool to be a much improved defence this season and you may well be right that they are more to be trusted than City, from GW22 onwards anyway. I could well consider losing Laporte for Robertson or VVD around then.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by FranckKessie »

For info
Liverpools xGA has not improved this season compared second half of last season(1-1-2018 and forward). 13.6 vs 13.8 both based on 17 matches.

They have a much better keeper today one would argue even though Karius did okay in PL if I remember correct.

So their new style isnt showing up in numbers easily.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by jack1092 »

No worry on Kalasinac being rotated quite a lot with Monreal back?

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

Yup. I worry about that, which is why I prefer vD


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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

jack1092 wrote: No worry on Kolasinac being rotated quite a lot with Monreal back?
Little now, my only significant concern is fitness. Emery seems to have settled on the 3-4-3 as Arsenal's preferred setup and Kolasinac is absolutely crucial to them in that formation, Monreal can't play LWB with anything like the same flair. He (Monreal) would more likely play LCB. The only thing that might imperil Kolasinac's starting role would be a return to the 4-3-3.

As long as Arsenal stay 3-4-3, both Bellerin and Kolasinac are significantly under-priced assets if they can they stay fit.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

FranckKessie wrote: Liverpools xGA has not improved this season compared second half of last season(1-1-2018 and forward). 13.6 vs 13.8 both based on 17 matches.
They have a much better keeper today one would argue even though Karius did okay in PL if I remember correct.
So their new style isn't showing up in numbers easily.
But it is. January last season was when VVD arrived, wasn't it? Robertson was established as well by then, so the defence was basically in place. All that has changed this season is that their actual goals conceded are way short of expected goals conceded. Partly that's Allison being better than Karius and partly it's just a run where fortune has been a bit kind to them in terms of CSs I think.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by dino1980 »

@Ruth - even though Liverpool has overperformwd their xGA (7 actual goals conceded vs 13.58 xGA) that still pegs them as the second best defence in the league for xGA.

My take is that even though their numbers should come back to the norm over the second half of the season, even if they do they’d still be an exceptional defence for FPL purposes.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Ruth_NZ »

dino1980 wrote: @Ruth - even though Liverpool has overperformed their xGA (7 actual goals conceded vs 13.58 xGA) that still pegs them as the second best defence in the league for xGA.
My take is that even though their numbers should come back to the norm over the second half of the season, even if they do they’d still be an exceptional defence for FPL purposes.
Yeah, I am well aware that they have a good defence, dino, and have never said anything other. To comment that they have been lucky to get so many CSs isn't the same as saying they don't have a good defence. I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a broken record having to say this again and again. :(

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by dino1980 »

Point taken. I’ve been on a work trip in Prague for the past 10 days so not had time to read around the forum, didn’t realise this question and answer had been covered elsewhere.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

My last word on Van Dijk is that even if Liverpool have had 1 or 2 clean sheets more than they deserve, vD has scored 1 or 2 fewer goals than he deserves, which more than makes up for it in my eyes. I think in a world of frequent rotation, a reliable source of points like him is gold dust.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

Do I laugh or cry that I didn’t make the transfer? Haha


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Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Joccki_10 »

Patrician wrote:Do I laugh or cry that I didn’t make the transfer? Haha
I must thank you. Was considering using his funds for a midfield upgrade but kept him partly due to your assessment.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

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At least I seem to manage to help everyone else!


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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Patrician »

So yeah, despite doing a Mystic Meg job on Van Dijik I didn't bring him in, but I was also right on the reason I didn't bring him in, which is that I suspected it would take just one more good Salah performance and I would want him back, and three Liverpool defenders would lock me out. This was compounded by my struggles to pick a captain this week, and I realised that I am not that comfortable putting the armband on Sterling or Sane (I went Hazard) and if I am not comfortable to put the armband on Sterling especially, he should not be in my squad.

Therefore, with Newcastle at home next up, I will grovel at the feet of Salah, profoundly apologise for doubting him, and bring him back for Sterling.

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by fred1266 »

Patrician wrote: 21 Dec 2018, 21:28 Do I laugh or cry that I didn’t make the transfer? Haha


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cry lol

as i saw him score i thought of you, i was like this man a genius

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Re: Patrician's Crystal Ball

Post by Aldershot Rejects »

fred1266 wrote: 21 Dec 2018, 23:09
Patrician wrote: 21 Dec 2018, 21:28 Do I laugh or cry that I didn’t make the transfer? Haha


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cry lol

as i saw him score i thought of you, i was like this man a genius
I thought exactly the same.
Glad you managed to see the bright side though.

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