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View from a non-DM player

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Tacalabala
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View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Now, I'm not going to pretend I know the absolute ins n' outs of what has been going on with this game, but I feel that having read the majority of comment on the issues, that I can give my own personal view.

The 'goings-on' - Let's not beat around the bush here, the fact of the matter is that I find incredibly it hard to believe that fantasy football is of interest to the increasing number of females participants in this game, and that all these women just so happen to be relatives of apparently very talented FF managers. The targeting in particular of monthly prizes is blatent.

GFM's response - Well, laugably frankly. They don't appear to have any tangible method by which they can investigate such things, and that is because, in my opinion, the game is flawed by design. I think it's almost impossible for them to prove, on a strictly legal basis, that people are breaking the rules of the game, and they clearly are aware of this. I fear that they may change this into a pay-to-play game in future seasons with the same framework.

What should FISOers do? - I don't think there is anything FISOers can do to remedy the situation, simply because if GFM can't do anything with the data available to them, it is absolutely impossible for a FISOer (or anyone else not at GFM) to do anything. That is crystal clear to me. Future actions? I feel FISO as a forum (and other places (you know who you are)), have one of two options - a) Make it official forum policy that participation in the Mail game is discouraged and that FISO does not participate at forum level, nor discuss the game, or b) we accept the current conditions for what we know they are, and advice FISO members that, reading between the line, participation by members' relative is not only accepted, but encouraged.

Chuck's actions - Firstly, as a poster he was a very approachable guy, and certainly was quite generous with his time to FISO. eff me, to be honest I don't where he gets the time :lol: I can certainly understand his frustrations, I want to make that clear. I believe that his motives were honourable. However, I think that on balance, I feel he has engaged in somewhat of a wild goose chase - the comparisons with the 'Tam' incident just aren't there for me, because as I've said, it is almost impossible for any of us to prove rule breaking. I don't think he should have booted people from other games.

Chuck's ban - For me, and I've said this several times, to ban Chuck was disproportionate to the crime. While he has a mind of his own and knew what he was doing, I think that this messy business could have been avoided had admin (and/or mods) taken the decision to go down one of the two routes I have proposed above. Indeed, they still could, and I believe they could reinstate Chuck in the light of this change of position. Perhaps a better punishment would have been to have asked Chuck to stand down from all of his chairing duties for this season and next? Whether Chuck would/will come back is hard to say, and from his posts in the other place, I doubt he would feel he'd want to in the immediacy.

I'd like to say that I still as ever respect admin, and it should be borne in mind that ultimately it is his forum, we are all his guests.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by The Elkmaster »

Didn't know Chuck was banned, when?

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Surprised
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Surprised »

Chuck kicked people out of official FISO leagues because he suspected them of have multiple accounts on other games. He asked admin if he could do this and admin said he should not. He then went ahead and did it anyway and some expulsions seemed to be because of a personal dislike for certain posters. These were not random leagues set up between FISO'ers but official FISO leagues and members were kicked out for things unrelated to that game. Whilst Chuck was acting honourably in exposing cheating he went against the specific advice that admin gave him in removing people from leagues. Even after he was asked to reinstate people into one league he then removed people from a league in another game.

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

You know Boston Red Sox won the 1918 World Series? :lol:

Yes, he was banned, what, a couple of days or so ago. Go to the Sky ML thread for details.

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Surprised wrote:Chuck kicked people out of official FISO leagues because he suspected them of have multiple accounts on other games. He asked admin if he could do this and admin said he should not. He then went ahead and did it anyway and some expulsions seemed to be because of a personal dislike for certain posters. These were not random leagues set up between FISO'ers but official FISO leagues and members were kicked out for things unrelated to that game. Whilst Chuck was acting honourably in exposing cheating he went against the specific advice that admin gave him in removing people from leagues. Even after he was asked to reinstate people into one league he then removed people from a league in another game.
Are you able to say which posters?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Surprised »

Tacalabala wrote: Are you able to say which posters?
I'm not going to list them as that is unfair on Chuck.
Posters on the TFFE and Sky forums have mentioned that Chuck removed them as far back as September

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Surprised wrote:
Tacalabala wrote: Are you able to say which posters?
I'm not going to list them as that is unfair on Chuck.
Posters on the TFFE and Sky forums have mentioned that Chuck removed them as far back as September
I'll have a look. I wasn't properly aware of this (I thought it was only one person).

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Surprised »

Tacalabala wrote:
Surprised wrote:
Tacalabala wrote: Are you able to say which posters?
I'm not going to list them as that is unfair on Chuck.
Posters on the TFFE and Sky forums have mentioned that Chuck removed them as far back as September
I'll have a look. I wasn't properly aware of this (I thought it was only one person).
More than 1
Not all have posted that they were removed as some contacted admin to try and find out what was happening and why.

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Surprised wrote:
Tacalabala wrote:
Surprised wrote:
Tacalabala wrote: Are you able to say which posters?
I'm not going to list them as that is unfair on Chuck.
Posters on the TFFE and Sky forums have mentioned that Chuck removed them as far back as September
I'll have a look. I wasn't properly aware of this (I thought it was only one person).
More than 1
Not all have posted that they were removed as some contacted admin to try and find out what was happening and why.
Ok, I will have a look. What do you think to my other points?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Surprised »

As regards what FISO can do then not that much. Boycotting won't help as we are only a tiny percentage of FF players. People entering under multiple identities is not unique to the DM game and I'd imagine every game has it. What Chuck was initially doing was the right approach I think as it was causing embarrassment to games organisers by having their failings exposed.

This is just my opinion and not some sort of mod statement!

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by bluenosey »

Well put Surprised, although I'd still have to agree that it seems very harsh to ban him :(

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by sleuth »

It aint hard to spot whose cheating.

i applaud Chuck for his actions- which he wouldn't of taken unless he had overwhelming proof.


Name and shame good on him.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

Shame about the abuse he is getting on the other forum.

Looks like he is unwanted on F.I.S.O and an outsider there.

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Surprised wrote:As regards what FISO can do then not that much. Boycotting won't help as we are only a tiny percentage of FF players. People entering under multiple identities is not unique to the DM game and I'd imagine every game has it. What Chuck was initially doing was the right approach I think as it was causing embarrassment to games organisers by having their failings exposed.

This is just my opinion and not some sort of mod statement!
But it's not causing them any embarrassment, and more to the point, it's not going to help FISOer win. I think it would be far more embarrassing to DM if FISOers' WAGs suddenly became a force in the game, don't you think?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Surprised »

Tacalabala wrote:
. I think it would be far more embarrassing to DM if FISOers' WAGs suddenly became a force in the game, don't you think?
I don't think they would really care. If anything they would probably use it to show that a woman can beat the men :)

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Surprised wrote:
Tacalabala wrote:
. I think it would be far more embarrassing to DM if FISOers' WAGs suddenly became a force in the game, don't you think?
I don't think they would really care. If anything they would probably use it to show that a woman can beat the men :)
Well then, shall we open up a WAG club on the DM forum? I'm being serious here, since it's permitted I don't see why FISOers' relatives should be deprived of the opportunity.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by DrBunker »

bluenosey wrote:Well put Surprised, although I'd still have to agree that it seems very harsh to ban him :(
Speaking personally I'd say that admin is so very against banning people even in the short-term it can often be incredibly frustrating so this would not have been an easy decision to make. Obviously that doesn't count as evidence of anything but there was a lot of communication between the two of them before this happened.

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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Right, I think I'm slightly the wiser, Surprised (I am aware of the grammatical irony of that sentence).

Sky thread, 12/02/12 - Chuck posts:
Chuck Taylor wrote:*ANNOUNCEMENT - 6 TEAMS REMOVED FROM SKY LEAGUE*

I have regrettably made the decision to remove 6 teams (3 individuals) from the Sky League. The 3 individuals are;

THEWISEONE (Trevor Gill) - for suspected multiteaming in The Daily Mail
blessedbrain (Geoff Pryor) - for suspected multiteaming in The Sun
jonnyg (Jonathan Greenway) - for suspected multiteaming in The Daily Mail
(post2001740.html#p2001740" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

TFFE thread, 15/02/12 - Chuck posts:
Chuck Taylor wrote:
Edmondson wrote:I've whacked a team in, think its a 66.

Full Zenit XI for me tomorrow :wink:
removed.

Jo is not welcome either.

........and bye bye Zarch too.....Emily is also not welcome.
(post2003475.html#p2003475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

16/02/12 - Chuck is banned.

Also of interest:

thewiseone has said he has been able to reinstate him (post2004216.html#p200421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Chuck appears to have based his decision on this evidence - league-of-superleague-contenders-t90931.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - which also suggests andye might have been banned somewhere along the line perhaps. blessedbrian's posting, as quoted by Chuck, is odd.

I suspect Chuck might have had his pointers on Edmondson for SDT, as Edmondson suspects - post2003640.html#p2003640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It would help if he could clear that up.

Mad Dog....:
post1889903.html#p1889903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... and rossn13's (time of deletion) postings made me raise my eyebrows as well:
post2003314.html#p2003314" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
post2003451.html#p2003451" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
post2003490.html#p2003490" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by murf »

Surprised wrote:Chuck kicked people out of official FISO leagues because he suspected them of have multiple accounts on other games. He asked admin if he could do this and admin said he should not. He then went ahead and did it anyway and some expulsions seemed to be because of a personal dislike for certain posters. These were not random leagues set up between FISO'ers but official FISO leagues and members were kicked out for things unrelated to that game. Whilst Chuck was acting honourably in exposing cheating he went against the specific advice that admin gave him in removing people from leagues. Even after he was asked to reinstate people into one league he then removed people from a league in another game.
If all that is true then admin had to kick him out.

Despite his good intentions the FISO leagues weren't his to dictate regarding.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Edmondson »

Happy to clear up my position. I am part of a syndicate in the sun game where we all pay to play. This is in no way cheating, yet a small minority have tried to stir things up, one bloke has taken it all the way to the sun game organisers and has been told it's fine. The syndicate contains female members which is what attracts the accusations, but they have paid for their teams so this is not a case of getting extra free teams using as many family members as possible.

I decided to stick a team in Tffe fiso league, a league I have taken part in before, a game I have won money in before. Chuck removed my team and posted the message above. I felt the need to clear up the fact that Jo had not entered the free Tffe game, as maybe the impression given by throwing me out and stating Jo not welcome was that she had entered.

I have never played the mail game, but was aware of chucks work on uncovering multiple account players, and applaud it.

I can't say whether it was harsh to ban him, don't think many can, as don't know the full story of what went on.

From my point of view it just seemed odd and a bit off hand to just chuck me out and post what he posted. I'm not that fussed about not being in the league, so happy just to leave it. I guess my main gripe is that through taking the stance he has with abusers of free game entries, he has just lumped me in as a cheat, on basis of my sun dreamteam entries, which are different story, different game, pay to play.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Edmondson wrote:Happy to clear up my position. I am part of a syndicate in the sun game where we all pay to play. This is in no way cheating, yet a small minority have tried to stir things up, one bloke has taken it all the way to the sun game organisers and has been told it's fine. The syndicate contains female members which is what attracts the accusations, but they have paid for their teams so this is not a case of getting extra free teams using as many family members as possible.

I decided to stick a team in Tffe fiso league, a league I have taken part in before, a game I have won money in before. Chuck removed my team and posted the message above. I felt the need to clear up the fact that Jo had not entered the free Tffe game, as maybe the impression given by throwing me out and stating Jo not welcome was that she had entered.

I have never played the mail game, but was aware of chucks work on uncovering multiple account players, and applaud it.

I can't say whether it was harsh to ban him, don't think many can, as don't know the full story of what went on.

From my point of view it just seemed odd and a bit off hand to just chuck me out and post what he posted. I'm not that fussed about not being in the league, so happy just to leave it. I guess my main gripe is that through taking the stance he has with abusers of free game entries, he has just lumped me in as a cheat, on basis of my sun dreamteam entries, which are different story, different game, pay to play.
Would I be right if I was to read that 'between the lines'? No offence intended.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Vid »

Tacalabala wrote:
Edmondson wrote:Happy to clear up my position. I am part of a syndicate in the sun game where we all pay to play. This is in no way cheating, yet a small minority have tried to stir things up, one bloke has taken it all the way to the sun game organisers and has been told it's fine. The syndicate contains female members which is what attracts the accusations, but they have paid for their teams so this is not a case of getting extra free teams using as many family members as possible.

I decided to stick a team in Tffe fiso league, a league I have taken part in before, a game I have won money in before. Chuck removed my team and posted the message above. I felt the need to clear up the fact that Jo had not entered the free Tffe game, as maybe the impression given by throwing me out and stating Jo not welcome was that she had entered.

I have never played the mail game, but was aware of chucks work on uncovering multiple account players, and applaud it.

I can't say whether it was harsh to ban him, don't think many can, as don't know the full story of what went on.

From my point of view it just seemed odd and a bit off hand to just chuck me out and post what he posted. I'm not that fussed about not being in the league, so happy just to leave it. I guess my main gripe is that through taking the stance he has with abusers of free game entries, he has just lumped me in as a cheat, on basis of my sun dreamteam entries, which are different story, different game, pay to play.
Would I be right if I was to read that 'between the lines'? No offence intended.
Can't be 100% sure either what you're "reading between the lines" or who Edmonson is referring to, but my money is on a different, but also banned from FISO, person.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Razorback »

Has the dust settled :?:

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Toffeeman »

Edmondson - What is the difference between using a family member/relatives name to gain extra teams in a free game or in a game where you have to pay to do so :?:

Is it not one in the same thing, except you have to pay to do so in the Sun game, just because you have paid for it does not mean you havn't bent the rules to gain more teams than the rules state

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by SUZYKINS »

Ashers wrote:Shame about the abuse he is getting on the other forum.

Looks like he is unwanted on F.I.S.O and an outsider there.
Difference is that's banter which is allowed!
Ash if you can't stand the heat........
Chuck will adapt just fine.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Zimmerman »

Toffeeman wrote:Edmondson - What is the difference between using a family member/relatives name to gain extra teams in a free game or in a game where you have to pay to do so :?:

Is it not one in the same thing, except you have to pay to do so in the Sun game, just because you have paid for it does not mean you havn't bent the rules to gain more teams than the rules state
Theres a difference between using a name and an additional person(s) playing.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Toffeeman »

I appreciate that Zimmerman, but is that honestly the case :?:

I stand corrected if it is

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Zimmerman »

Yep.

There are hundreds of posts about it in the Sun forum.

My mrs (each of our mrs' for that matter) have been playing the Sun game for a while.
They were playing long before the Sun introduced a limit on the amount of teams any one person could enter.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Vid »

Zimmerman wrote:Yep.

There are hundreds of posts about it in the Sun forum.

My mrs (each of our mrs' for that matter) have been playing the Sun game for a while.
They were playing long before the Sun introduced a limit on the amount of teams any one person could enter.
Just never got anywhere near a leaderboard before? :wink:

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Toffeeman »

I stand corrected then :oops:

Must be because my Mrs hates football and especially my obsession with ff that I assume that the majority of the apposite sex are the same

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