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Tacalabala
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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Toffeeman wrote:I stand corrected then :oops:

Must be because my Mrs hates football and especially my obsession with ff that I assume that the majority of the apposite sex are the same
I reckon she might gain in interest soon though, yes?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by The Elkmaster »

Zimmerman wrote:Yep.

There are hundreds of posts about it in the Sun forum.

My mrs (each of our mrs' for that matter) have been playing the Sun game for a while.
They were playing long before the Sun introduced a limit on the amount of teams any one person could enter.
But were they playing long before any individual were allowed to win a certain amount of prizes?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Vid »

Toffeeman wrote:I stand corrected then :oops:

Must be because my Mrs hates football and especially my obsession with ff that I assume that the majority of the apposite sex are the same
Mine tried it to see what it was all about, didn't like FPL at all, was pleased with Metro as one of her teams was beating mine, SDT not enough to keep her interested, WDT too much hassle and generally if she wasn't sat at her computer at the same time I was for making transfers in various games they didn't get done.

She certainly knows a fair number of footballers, which clubs they play for and to a degree which are good and bad picks for FF, but really not enough interest at present to keep going for a whole season in any game. I've got Sky Sports and ESPN so she's got to put up with most live games being on the tv, a certain amount will always sink into even the most disinterested, even her daughter makes comments during games that she's "not watching" :-)

I'll ask her again at the start of next season if she wants to enter teams, if she does then she does, if she doesn't then she doesn't.

What Chuck (and a few others) don't seem to understand is how syndicates work, a pool of investment and teams where those p(l)aying may or may not have equal say in team selection and strategy, some are happy to take to the background and follow the consensus.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Vid wrote:What Chuck (and a few others) don't seem to understand is how syndicates work, a pool of investment and teams where those p(l)aying may or may not have equal say in team selection and strategy, some are happy to take to the background and follow the consensus.
So you're saying a lot of people can pay, but only a few actually do the donkey work?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Edmondson »

Toffeeman wrote:Edmondson - What is the difference between using a family member/relatives name to gain extra teams in a free game or in a game where you have to pay to do so :?:

Is it not one in the same thing, except you have to pay to do so in the Sun game, just because you have paid for it does not mean you havn't bent the rules to gain more teams than the rules state

The key difference for me is the payment and the economic risk and reward that comes with that. This is one of the 3 fundamentals to 'owning' if you like a fantasy team. The other 2 being, picking the team yourself, and physically entering it yourself.

In a free game you could say there is the economic benefit of the prize - who will actually receive it, but the payment for the actual team is a lot more transparent - which you don't have in a free game.

Running a syndicate, number 2 is taken out the equation, well it is in ours. The teams are picked as a group, so you can argue I don't pick my own teams, is that cheating?

The physical entry thing, is where I believe the sun were aiming their 'no entries to be made by 3rd parties or agents' rule which is perhaps the rule some people might think is being broken by family members or whatever. It's a difficult one to prove and I think it was really only intended to stop someone hiring someone to bang in 1000's of entries for them an alternative to the dreaded Automator - an unlikely scenario but one the sdt management maybe wanted cover for. All my opinion. But if I enter a mates weekend dreamteam for him whilst he is on holiday, I'm not sure this is breaking that rule.

So, really when a comp like the sun says 60 entries only per person, maybe what people really should be protesting about is syndicates per se. Why pick on Joanne or Emily? Easy targets? We have others in the syndicate who are not known on fiso, John Marchant has an account but doesnt post, Chris Sciandro, Mark Prescott these could be my cousins or whatever...The key point is that we have grouped our accounts together in a syndicate to have more options, more than the 60 teams permitted for one person. Anyone is free to do this if they wish.

Of course by the sound of how the Tffe and mail games are run, anyone it appears is ok to have multiple accounts and extra free teams, but for me there is a big difference if there is no syndication. Just joe blogs out to profit on his own, asking to borrow email addresses or whatever to get extra free teams. I'm not one to voice a particularly strong opinion against this, because for something like Tffe to have to manage that many teams with all the transfers is almost deterrent enough, the prizes are not significant enough to encourage this on a wide scale, and from the current leader board it gives a good chance of being up there, but guarantees nothing.

I think from the responses on this thread and others there is a mix of opinion on all this, but clearly there have been opinions formed without considering the full facts, and I believe that is what chuck did when taking the stance he did against me.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Vid »

Tacalabala wrote:
Vid wrote:What Chuck (and a few others) don't seem to understand is how syndicates work, a pool of investment and teams where those p(l)aying may or may not have equal say in team selection and strategy, some are happy to take to the background and follow the consensus.
So you're saying a lot of people can pay, but only a few actually do the donkey work?
The BBM was 17 strong, some said more than others, some did more than others, it worked in that we all made a few quid, it failed in that we could have won a lot more.

The belief from many was that the Tan syndicate was run by 1/2 people with the rest either just names or investors, they won big time. Automation is/ was a separate issue to the make up and running of his syndicate.

When people are working together to an agreed plan it then how much input each individual has is irrelevant as long as each individual entering is an individual entering, something that you, I, Chuck and nobody else beyond those sat at the computers making the entries knows for sure and never can.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Edmondson

As you've probably gathered, I've very much moved over to the camp of saying "when in Rome".

You must accept, at a basic level, that it is very hard to distinguish at a technical level between what you say you're doing - pooling funds and then operating the teams as a syndicate of individuals (though not each individual is equally as involved in the selection process) - and what Chuck and other suspect is happening (not you, but others) - creating additional accounts under different names and emails (and possibly difference debit/credit cards), but the whole operation is actually only run by one or less than a handful of individuals?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Vid wrote:
Tacalabala wrote:
Vid wrote:What Chuck (and a few others) don't seem to understand is how syndicates work, a pool of investment and teams where those p(l)aying may or may not have equal say in team selection and strategy, some are happy to take to the background and follow the consensus.
So you're saying a lot of people can pay, but only a few actually do the donkey work?
The BBM was 17 strong, some said more than others, some did more than others, it worked in that we all made a few quid, it failed in that we could have won a lot more.

The belief from many was that the Tan syndicate was run by 1/2 people with the rest either just names or investors, they won big time. Automation is/ was a separate issue to the make up and running of his syndicate.

When people are working together to an agreed plan it then how much input each individual has is irrelevant as long as each individual entering is an individual entering, something that you, I, Chuck and nobody else beyond those sat at the computers making the entries knows for sure and never can.
So you'd encourage FISOer to get their families involved in syndicates, is that what you're saying?

Re. automation, that was blatently wrong, I don't think anyone is questioning that. I don't know why Sanjay doesn't come clean and explain how it was done to be honest.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Edmondson »

Tacalabala wrote:Edmondson

As you've probably gathered, I've very much moved over to the camp of saying "when in Rome".

You must accept, at a basic level, that it is very hard to distinguish at a technical level between what you say you're doing - pooling funds and then operating the teams as a syndicate of individuals (though not each individual is equally as involved in the selection process) - and what Chuck and other suspect is happening (not you, but others) - creating additional accounts under different names and emails (and possibly difference debit/credit cards), but the whole operation is actually only run by one or less than a handful of individuals?

Yep, I think it is hard to distinguish, which is why I took the chance to post up in this thread. You're talking about a few details which might seem minor but are actually quite key:

1. "run by one or less than a handful of individuals" - if it's one person with 5 emails addresses controlling 15 teams in TFFE purely for his / her own benefit, then this is easier to distinguish. If 5 genuine players decided to pool their 3 TFFE sides to cover off different options, I think this is ok? If those 5 people added a partners account so the 5 had 6 teams each it starts to cross the line, but not as blatant as 1 person.

2. The prizes are actually key. £1,000 and an ipad. Is a syndicate of 5 or more going to chase that, is it worth it? More likely to be a solo operator.

In the sun game there are loads of prizes, small and high values, so syndicating entries makes sense. The size of our syndicate means we have a chance most weeks, months and doing ok on the seasonal, but by no means dominant. Two thirds of the way through the season, haven't made our money back yet :( . Plenty of others in smaller syndicates or going solo with 6 teams to 60 teams are in profit.

The principle in TFFE to me, is have 3 bites at the cherry, everyone have a go for free, see who wins the £1k. There are some other place prizes, but someone with a mass entry is likely to have greater impact on the chances of others, playing with their genuine 3 teams.

At the end of the day I'm comfortable defending our position in the sun, but wouldn't be comfortable defending my position if I had 18 teams in TFFE under various family member names, operated all by myself.

Those that think I've used my wife's account to enter more teams, to bend the rule of 60 teams per person? WRONG. I've used the syndicate I'm in with plenty of others to gain extra teams as a group.

Those that say, yeah but some of those others are know keen sun dreamteam players whereas it's obvious your wife knows nothing about football? Firstly that is an assumption and secondly so what? Within the syndicate as Vid has pointed out some will have more input than others.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Edmondson wrote:Yep, I think it is hard to distinguish, which is why I took the chance to post up in this thread. You're talking about a few details which might seem minor but are actually quite key:

1. "run by one or less than a handful of individuals" - if it's one person with 5 emails addresses controlling 15 teams in TFFE purely for his / her own benefit, then this is easier to distinguish. If 5 genuine players decided to pool their 3 TFFE sides to cover off different options, I think this is ok? If those 5 people added a partners account so the 5 had 6 teams each it starts to cross the line, but not as blatant as 1 person.

But as you've accepted, it would be practically impossible for anyone to say that the partners of the 5 weren't any less part of the syndicate. They could just agree with their 5 partners views on selection, and how could you argue against that?

2. The prizes are actually key. £1,000 and an ipad. Is a syndicate of 5 or more going to chase that, is it worth it? More likely to be a solo operator.

If the syndicate was a family of 5 (nuclear family for example), they'd have every right to say it was worth it. The grand is a nice weekend away, and the kids share the iPad.

In the sun game there are loads of prizes, small and high values, so syndicating entries makes sense. The size of our syndicate means we have a chance most weeks, months and doing ok on the seasonal, but by no means dominant. Two thirds of the way through the season, haven't made our money back yet :( . Plenty of others in smaller syndicates or going solo with 6 teams to 60 teams are in profit.

Hopeful you can get into the black before May :)

The principle in TFFE to me, is have 3 bites at the cherry, everyone have a go for free, see who wins the £1k. There are some other place prizes, but someone with a mass entry is likely to have greater impact on the chances of others, playing with their genuine 3 teams.

At the end of the day I'm comfortable defending our position in the sun, but wouldn't be comfortable defending my position if I had 18 teams in TFFE under various family member names, operated all by myself.

As I've stated above, it makes sense for a family to syndicate on something like this season's TFFE.

Those that think I've used my wife's account to enter more teams, to bend the rule of 60 teams per person? WRONG. I've used the syndicate I'm in with plenty of others to gain extra teams as a group.

Those that say, yeah but some of those others are know keen sun dreamteam players whereas it's obvious your wife knows nothing about football? Firstly that is an assumption and secondly so what? Within the syndicate as Vid has pointed out some will have more input than others.

Or possibly none, being in effect a silent partner in a consortium.
I've addressed the various points.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by t.gridley »

Toffeeman wrote:I stand corrected then :oops:

Must be because my Mrs hates football and especially my obsession with ff that I assume that the majority of the apposite sex are the same

Are we married to the same woman?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by murf »

Edmondson,

You are cheating. Full stop. You can dress it up how you like but you are still cheating. Paying to cheat is the same as cheating for free, possibly worse as you are seeking greater gain.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Zimmerman »

Murf, you are wrong.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by murf »

No, I'm not.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

Murf,

You are totally wrong.

Their wifes use their debit cards to pay for the teams and cheques are cashed in their bank accounts.
They have involvement in the game and could tell you well certain players are in the team.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Conventionally, yes, he is cheating the rules, murf.

What I'm trying to get across here, however, is that I now think it is being tolerated by GFM (Sky and Mail), SDT, and possibly on TFFE. We can't go on ignoring the fact that these organisers are unwilling to do anything.

Perhaps we as a forum need to accept this as a given when playing these games and act acccordingly.

PS. this is why, up to now, I've only playing FPL (and other ISM games), and TFF. It's not for me, but it might be for others.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Edmondson »

What rule or rules are being cheated?

Back in 2009/10 the Tam syndicate had 3,000+ teams but I never called them cheats, as hadn't broken any rules as far as I was aware.

The following season with 20,000 teams+ it was clear that something didn't stack up, how could you possibly physically enter that many? So, we looked into it, Sleuth brought to light the wdt picks that were not available through the website etc. etc. I looked at the t's and c's which said all entries were to be made via the website. It was clear that the Automator was bypassing the front end of the website, so on those grounds the Tam entry was challenged, with evidence provided on entry times etc.

To call someone a cheat, I think you need to be clear on what grounds and quite helpful to have some evidence. That's just my opinion. Some people will be comfortable to just throw things out there, end of :wink:

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by murf »

Tacabala,

Agree with most of that. the organisers seem to be doing something but that is making rules deliberately bendable whilst having a chance of weeding out wholesale rule breaking.

Limits per person don't work. Much as me may want single team purity or limited team equality then that won't happen when people play for money over fun. Free games with good prizes are just asking for trouble.

I play TFF which is generally a free for all but even in that people cheat because of the rules over repeat wins in MOTW etc. Scrap the rule is the only answer.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

Edmondson - I think you have yourself mentioned about things 'crossing the line', or something to that effect, which I think you have to accept yourself, indicates that even you are aware that what you're doing could be construed as, at least, not in the spirit of the rules. This is why I'm saying we (FISOers) need to understand what is tolerated by the operator, because then we won't have what happened this week happen again.

As for automation, as I've said, that is a totally different issue and there is unamimous agreement that automation is cheating.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by murf »

Edmondson wrote: To call someone a cheat, I think you need to be clear on what grounds and quite helpful to have some evidence. That's just my opinion. Some people will be comfortable to just throw things out there, end of :wink:
My interpretation is that your consortium, based on your posts on this thread alone, is technically cheating - and that is without going too far into the issue of passive members (wives or otherwise - an issue I may have misinterpreted, in terms of extent, re you/yours having re-read this thread). But, as I said above, the games organisers seem to be deliberately allowing that rule bending as long as they eliminate mega-scale cheating with huge controlled consortiums.

There is only one answer and that is to have a paid game and a free for all on all prizes.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Tacalabala »

murf - that is the answer if you want it to stop it, scrap the rules, but aren't the organisers meant to have distinctly different rules?

I'm coming here from an angle of the current rules and how the organisers interpret them, and what FISOers should/can do in the light of this. As I've said, if FISOers want to start a syndicate with their families, and the organisers don't seem at all bothered by that, who are we to argue? It's no different from a syndicate of unrelated individuals.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by SUZYKINS »

Ashers wrote: Their wifes use their debit cards to pay for the teams and cheques are cashed in their bank accounts.
They have involvement in the game and could tell you well certain players are in the team.
That does not mean that they are taking part :?

I have no problems with this as team CHEZZ are paying to enter (which is different to taking advantage of free to enter games).
We all know it goes on, I could have entered all me & my mates teams in the Sun but he entered the teams that I picked, so I suppose you could say he is taking part ?
The only thing you could say is that its not in the spirit of the game ? but Tam blew that arguement out of the water anyway :!:

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by bluenosey »

We have to be careful now to be re-open old wounds.

It's Chris's site and he has the ultimate responsibility.

Time to concentrate on the FF :)

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Zoolander »

Although I agree that Chuck went too far and would have gained more respect from resigning the chairmanships, it concerns me that admin have yet to pass comment on the FISOer's who are blatantly cheating. :?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

Zoolander wrote:Although I agree that Chuck went too far and would have gained more respect from resigning the chairmanships, it concerns me that admin have yet to pass comment on the FISOer's who are blatantly cheating. :?
Such as?

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

SUZYKINS wrote:
Ashers wrote: Their wifes use their debit cards to pay for the teams and cheques are cashed in their bank accounts.
They have involvement in the game and could tell you well certain players are in the team.
That does not mean that they are taking part :?

I have no problems with this as team CHEZZ are paying to enter (which is different to taking advantage of free to enter games).
We all know it goes on, I could have entered all me & my mates teams in the Sun but he entered the teams that I picked, so I suppose you could say he is taking part ?
The only thing you could say is that its not in the spirit of the game ? but Tam blew that arguement out of the water anyway :!:
No it does not, but it better than someone creating lots of different accounts in free games and covering all the basis.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by SUZYKINS »

Ashers wrote:
SUZYKINS wrote:
Ashers wrote: Their wifes use their debit cards to pay for the teams and cheques are cashed in their bank accounts.
They have involvement in the game and could tell you well certain players are in the team.
That does not mean that they are taking part :?

I have no problems with this as team CHEZZ are paying to enter (which is different to taking advantage of free to enter games).
We all know it goes on, I could have entered all me & my mates teams in the Sun but he entered the teams that I picked, so I suppose you could say he is taking part ?
The only thing you could say is that its not in the spirit of the game ? but Tam blew that arguement out of the water anyway :!:
No it does not, but it better than someone creating lots of different accounts in free games and covering all the basis.
Isnt that what I said :roll:

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

SUZYKINS wrote:
Isnt that what I said :roll:
I will give you that one.

I do however blame SDT for creating the free teams route and even giving Average Joe the chance to cheat.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Zoolander »

Ashers wrote:
SUZYKINS wrote:
Isnt that what I said :roll:
I will give you that one.

I do however blame SDT for creating the free teams route and even giving Average Joe the chance to cheat.

So people who can invest money into cheating are okay? :roll:

You're really not doing yourself any favours on this thread Ashers.

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Re: View from a non-DM player

Post by Ashers »

No what I am saying is the following:

I have no issue with someone working in a group and they enter their teams, all pay for their own entries and cheques get paid into their accounts

I do however think it is not fair when someone creates ten different email addresses under different names and then uses these to enter teams.
Last edited by Ashers on 18 Feb 2012, 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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