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EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance] - Poll: Will we leave???

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Will the UK leave on Halloween?

Poll ended at 16 Sep 2019, 08:56

Yes with the May deal
1
2%
Yes with a Boris deal
5
9%
Yes with no deal
12
21%
No there will be a further extension
31
55%
No Article 50 will be revoked
7
13%
 
Total votes: 56

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EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance] - Poll: Will we leave???

Post by Spinynorman » 20 Feb 2016, 11:04

Just wondering what the views of FISO are?

As it stands at the moment would you vote In or Out?

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by murf » 20 Feb 2016, 11:07

Out

My parents voted to join a 'common market', had they stuck with that then we'd be fine.

Nobody voted to join a Federal Europe. Our beautiful little island is just getting more crowded, over developed and out of our control.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by sleuth » 20 Feb 2016, 13:48

OUT


Europe can eff off. Sick of Brussells having the final say on so many things in Britain like human rights etc for eff terrorists. It doesn't matter though as The government will bend the vote so it's a marginal yes like 52-48 and if it's a no they will have a recount to fix it to a yes. Much like Ireland who initially voted no to the euro so they had a recount and suprise suprise it was a yes.


This vote will be more rigged than a FIFA VOTE.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by forestfan » 20 Feb 2016, 14:01

It's a really tough one, I hate so much of what the EU stands for and what it's become but it would be such a leap into the unknown to leave, economically and politically. We'd probably be drawn closer to America as more of an unofficial 51st state, and just look at what US politics is like right now.

Would be great to be free of certain EU restrictions on the laws we can make, and have more control over our borders and dealing with criminals and terrorists etc. as well as less risk of having to bail out the finances of weak nations, but would feel uneasy at losing the employment protection etc. it brings. I think I'd feel uncomfortable with putting a cross in either box right now.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Tacalabala » 20 Feb 2016, 15:06

Which laws do you feel are restricted by Europe?

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by bluenosey » 20 Feb 2016, 15:15

Tacalabala wrote:Which laws do you feel are restricted by Europe?
Uncontrolled movement of people.

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EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Maldini » 20 Feb 2016, 15:19

Most definitely...IN.

You're a little tinker, Spiny. ;)

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by jacksosi » 20 Feb 2016, 15:46

On the fence currently, really need some independent figures on cost vs benefits.

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Re: RE: Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by murf » 20 Feb 2016, 16:01

jacksosi wrote:On the fence currently, really need some independent figures on cost vs benefits.
The figures will show massive benefits for whoever commissions it! There are so many factors it just can't be properly tallied and the fact either side can say their way is best will tell you that there really isn't much in it.

Have to go with your gut on this one.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Striker » 20 Feb 2016, 17:19

Don't even need to think about it, 100% IN!

Mind you I have thought about it and done considerable reading of both sides' arguments in recent months.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Darbyand » 20 Feb 2016, 18:52

Unequivocally IN.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Brightwater » 20 Feb 2016, 19:03

I must be the Michael Gove of FISO...a 30 year Euro "sceptic". Cameron talks a good game (like Obama) but doesn't achieve anything. If we vote Stay we will still be contributing massively to this ridiculous gravy train. :evil:

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Darbyand » 20 Feb 2016, 19:15

Seeing as you mention him, whilst in the end you should try and decide these things on a pros and cons basis, it's often instructive to see who's with and against you on the various sides of an argument. On the opposite side to Gove, IDS, Farage and George Galloway is a place I'm very VERY comfortable to be.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by jeffmcgow » 20 Feb 2016, 19:30

murf wrote:Out

My parents voted to join a 'common market', had they stuck with that then we'd be fine.

Nobody voted to join a Federal Europe. Our beautiful little island is just getting more crowded, over developed and out of our control.
"Out" for me as well.

The arrangement our parents voted for has been distorted out of all recognition.

Heck, I'm 54 and have never been allowed a voted on the matter :shock:

Leaving the EU will have no effect whatsoever on our trade. Other countries will still want to export their goods to us; and if our goods are good enough to buy now then countries won't stop trading overnight.
Last edited by jeffmcgow on 20 Feb 2016, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by sleuth » 20 Feb 2016, 19:35

Sick n tired off hearing horror stories about 12 hour waits in A & E and not a chance of a parking spot to get ripped off in fees also to find at our hospitals.

way way way too many immigrants over 'ere freeloading off our NHS.

When my Wife had a cancer op a couple of years ago, the night of her admission there was no room at the Inn so to speak. Being told to come back in the morning early doors she must have been the last name called out and it was probably the first English name I heard called. :(

Even after her op there was still no room at the Inn for a couple of days before they found her a space. :twisted:


Europe eff DO 1!

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Maldini » 20 Feb 2016, 20:09

Sleuth is Nigel Farage and I claim my £10.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by topspur » 20 Feb 2016, 20:11

Has to be out I'm afraid. The better run western economies have little to fear from being out - and I think we still qualify as that. We'll be hamstrung enough even if we get out but why volunteer for the extra pain that staying in brings with it.
Its only the ' I must leave a legacy' politicians who are desperate to stay onboard the gravy train. Cameron's mealy mouthed justifications are fairly transparent
Plus (of course) it will totally piss off Jimmy Krankie and her puppet master ! :wink:

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by eastcentral1 » 20 Feb 2016, 20:23

sleuth wrote: way way way too many immigrants over 'ere freeloading off our NHS.
The average immigrant to the UK pays more in taxes and draws less in benefits than the average native Brit. The fiscal effects of immigration are overwhelmingly positive. So your local hosptital may be busy, but immigrants certainly are not "freeloading".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11 ... 12431.html
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institut ... mmigration

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by scarletjim » 20 Feb 2016, 20:33

forestfan wrote:It's a really tough one, I hate so much of what the EU stands for and what it's become but it would be such a leap into the unknown to leave, economically and politically. We'd probably be drawn closer to America as more of an unofficial 51st state, and just look at what US politics is like right now.

Would be great to be free of certain EU restrictions on the laws we can make, and have more control over our borders and dealing with criminals and terrorists etc. as well as less risk of having to bail out the finances of weak nations, but would feel uneasy at losing the employment protection etc. it brings. I think I'd feel uncomfortable with putting a cross in either box right now.
I was about to post a fuller answer, but then read this and realised it pretty much sums up my entire view on the subjects, including rationale. The poll really could do with several more options, including "Interested but not sure", "Moving towards IN but not yet certain", "Moving towards OUT but not yet certain".

Personally, 5 years ago I would definitely have voted for IN, but as time passes I seem to be moving more and more towards OUT, and am really not sure what I'd voted if asked tomorrow...

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Carlos Kickaball » 20 Feb 2016, 21:14

I'm hoping we leave the UK.

- The UK costs us £500 million in taxes every year, and what do we get for it - nothing!
- There are lots of criminals, unemployed people, and bad drivers in the UK.
- The UK parliament is full of bureaucracy and politicians, which against everything I stand for.
- The UK parliement undermines the UK's laws and justice system, by sometimes changing them watering down our power.
- If we weren't in the UK everything that's good about it would happen anyway, even though it doesn't in other places, I know because I am an expert.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by murf » 20 Feb 2016, 21:24

Err yes.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by bluenosey » 20 Feb 2016, 21:35

eastcentral1 wrote:
sleuth wrote: way way way too many immigrants over 'ere freeloading off our NHS.
The average immigrant to the UK pays more in taxes and draws less in benefits than the average native Brit. The fiscal effects of immigration are overwhelmingly positive. So your local hosptital may be busy, but immigrants certainly are not "freeloading".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11 ... 12431.html
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institut ... mmigration
Not denying the positive fiscal effect but IMO any fiscal bonus goes to the rich. The fat cats are the ones that benefit the most from a large group of mainly unskilled labour free to travel across Europe, which suppresses wages for the average man in the street. You watch, a lot of super wealthy bosses from Tory Toffs to Lefty Champagne Socialists will be all for staying in. They'll be looking after their "bottom line".

Also, whilst the fiscal argument would suggest immigration is a good thing, what about the strain on housing ? We keep on being told there's not enough housing/houses being built and yet we keep on letting more and more people in. Logistics doesn't seem to figure. What about our creaking transport infrastructure ? Can it cope ? Do we build more and more roads ? What about schooling ? Do we revert to 50s style classes of 40 and 50 kids and look for teachers fluent in 100 languages ? Culturally, can we all fit cheek by jowl ? Pole next to Somalian (with Dutch passport) next to Romanov Gypsy ? Is it all win win ?

In my opinion, it's all about the numbers of immigrants. That's the problem. The EU is about freedom of people. Not being able to manage numbers is a big problem. Pre the admission of the Eastern block, this worked quite well. Now you can't blame the Poles, Latvians, Estonians and so on for coming here. We can go and work in these countries if we want, for a fraction of our wages, although not quite a reciprocal arrangement for UK national.

I would like the UK to be Self Governing. If Europe pulls all the strings, what's the real point of a UK general election ? :?

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by eastcentral1 » 20 Feb 2016, 21:43

My point was that immigrants pay more in taxes. That is a central fiscal benefit. Also, as set out in the links, a large proportion of immigrants are degree educated. So, not cleaners etc.

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Re: RE: Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by murf » 20 Feb 2016, 21:49

eastcentral1 wrote:My point was that immigrants pay more in taxes. That is a central fiscal benefit. Also, as set out in the links, a large proportion of immigrants are degree educated. So, not cleaners etc.
More people equals more consumerism etc and savings and profits in numbers. Your town gets bigger. You get more housing on your green spaces, a Tesco, a Starbucks, an over stretched health centre.

Is that what you want? It is more profitable and better economically on paper.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by RomynPG » 20 Feb 2016, 22:45

sleuth wrote:Sick of Brussells having the final say on so many things in Britain like human rights etc for eff terrorists.
The European Court of Human Rights - to which I assume you are referring to? - is nothing to do with the EU

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Tacalabala » 20 Feb 2016, 23:02

RomynPG wrote:
sleuth wrote:Sick of Brussells having the final say on so many things in Britain like human rights etc for eff terrorists.
The European Court of Human Rights - to which I assume you are referring to? - is nothing to do with the EU
This is the level of 'debate' we're going to be treated to until June:

The INs can't really defend the EU because as a democratic and administrative body there are fundamental problems with the way it operates, so they will skirt around solutions to the big problems which will continue and rely on the benefits of memberships which are actually lessening with time.

The OUTs are either too ignorant or too stupid to learn about the subject enough to form a reasoned argument, instead falling back on tired rhetoric which is mostly inaccurate, ill-informed or an outright lie.

I'm voting IN for really quite practical reasons - I have friends from other European states who I fear with suffer from us pulling out, I don't understand the logic that the UK parliament is somehow a better governing body for setting laws than the EU, I don't understand how it's in the UK's interests to pull out and yet still have to abide by EU rules (which we would then have no say in) to trade with the single market which remains our biggest export market, and do not want to be made to feel like a second class foreigner when travelling in Europe.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Surprised » 20 Feb 2016, 23:09

100% in
Luckily the pure ignorance and bigotry of people like sleuth will ensure the vote will be to remain.

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by Carlos Kickaball » 20 Feb 2016, 23:12

Tacalabala wrote:
RomynPG wrote:
sleuth wrote:Sick of Brussells having the final say on so many things in Britain like human rights etc for eff terrorists.
The European Court of Human Rights - to which I assume you are referring to? - is nothing to do with the EU
This is the level of 'debate' we're going to be treated to until June:

The INs can't really defend the EU because as a democratic and administrative body there are fundamental problems with the way it operates, so they will skirt around solutions to the big problems which will continue and rely on the benefits of memberships which are actually lessening with time.

The OUTs are either too ignorant or too stupid to learn about the subject enough to form a reasoned argument, instead falling back on tired rhetoric which is mostly inaccurate, ill-informed or an outright lie.
This is a top post, and is fully why I haven't gone back to highlight why I disagree with certain assertions made by people saying they will vote out. I would add that sadly relevant facts often don't swing people who have a strong gut feel in political debates, even well educated and intelligent people.

Overall I am probably a little more optimistic about the positives of being in the EU, and I will make a longer post in future I'm sure, for me economic and practical reasons are enough, and will vote to stay in. Glad we're not in the Euro though! :)

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by murf » 20 Feb 2016, 23:33

So the OUTs are ignorant cretins (and many are!) but it is OK and not at all cretinous to label us all with that brush :shock:

The obvious answer is for a 2-tier Europe with the non-Euro (2nd tier) countries being a trading block with certain commitments to each other but no free movement and the 1st tier having closer financial links (let the French and Germans subsidise the Greeks, Iberians and East Europeans even more cos I'm sure they will all want in on the top table gravy train).

It is ludicrous to think the Europeans will stop trading with us because we aren't in the EU any more. They still trade with China, US , Switzerland etc so why not us? I can see no real financial reason to stay in. Some companies may claim they will move to an EU base but I can't see it being many and it would be on paper anyway for tax reasons (their staff would stay here and pay taxes) and we can always offer subsidies to others to come here (much as we do now with Japanese car companies, French and Chinese nuclear power companies etc etc)

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Re: EU - In or Out poll?

Post by tenpinterry » 20 Feb 2016, 23:34

Out.

Cameron has already compromised from his election position. What's to stop the eu from dragging their heels on some of the changes once we've voted to stay in.

Also, how political is this decision I.e. I assume Cameron's influence, and his position as a 'world' leader, will be diminished if we vote to leave.

Nervous leap into the unknown I know but there seems to be so many negative issues with being in the Eu at the moment it feels the right thing to do.

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