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EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Maldini » 13 Apr 2019, 14:20

MADCHESTER UTD wrote:
Tacalabala wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 14:03
MADCHESTER UTD wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:59
Call themselves “The Independence Group” yet don’t want Britain to be independentImageImage Still, no more ridiculous than Labour still thinking they represent the interests of the working class and the poor.
This post literally makes no sense.
Er didn’t think I’d need to explain my post seeing as though it is self explanatory; to clarify TIG call themselves independent yet they are all Remainers and Labour supposedly are the party for the poor (and once were) yet since Blair they are Tory lite (had big hopes for Corbyn but he’s been a damp squib).
Aren’t they called Change now?

The only thing they do want to change though is the result of the referendum. Image

Am positive they’ve said they’ll continue to support austerity so definitely NOT Labour lite.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 13 Apr 2019, 15:03

They're called Change UK because it's the closest anagram of Chuka they could get away with :wink:

And campaigning for "change" is the biggest cliche in politics.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by blahblah » 13 Apr 2019, 15:33

eastcentral1 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:54
blahblah wrote:
7lb claimer wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 08:32
I'm a remainer but I can see the Brexit party doing well in these Euro elections. The message is so simple - betrayal - that it is hard to see anything in the lead up going wrong. Farage is good on TV as well. On the other hand the big parties are deeply divided and totally unconvincing. I really hope the Tiggers do well and attract more of the moderates to switch.
Betrayal of what though? ie what should have been negotiated?
Although Farage said before the ref that we could be like Norway or Switzerland, he now claims that any arrangement kind that would be a betrayal. A demonstrable lie, but people are easily taken in by his rhetoric.
Why haven't him and the others been taken to task over this?

(Assuming that lack of consistency is widespread among the Brexit Leaders?-

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Tacalabala » 13 Apr 2019, 16:22

blahblah wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:33
eastcentral1 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:54
blahblah wrote:
7lb claimer wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 08:32
I'm a remainer but I can see the Brexit party doing well in these Euro elections. The message is so simple - betrayal - that it is hard to see anything in the lead up going wrong. Farage is good on TV as well. On the other hand the big parties are deeply divided and totally unconvincing. I really hope the Tiggers do well and attract more of the moderates to switch.
Betrayal of what though? ie what should have been negotiated?
Although Farage said before the ref that we could be like Norway or Switzerland, he now claims that any arrangement kind that would be a betrayal. A demonstrable lie, but people are easily taken in by his rhetoric.
Why haven't him and the others been taken to task over this?

(Assuming that lack of consistency is widespread among the Brexit Leaders?-
Because even actual footage of him saying it is dismissed as fake news.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 13 Apr 2019, 19:42

blahblah wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:33
eastcentral1 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:54
blahblah wrote:
7lb claimer wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 08:32
I'm a remainer but I can see the Brexit party doing well in these Euro elections. The message is so simple - betrayal - that it is hard to see anything in the lead up going wrong. Farage is good on TV as well. On the other hand the big parties are deeply divided and totally unconvincing. I really hope the Tiggers do well and attract more of the moderates to switch.
Betrayal of what though? ie what should have been negotiated?
Although Farage said before the ref that we could be like Norway or Switzerland, he now claims that any arrangement kind that would be a betrayal. A demonstrable lie, but people are easily taken in by his rhetoric.
Why haven't him and the others been taken to task over this?

(Assuming that lack of consistency is widespread among the Brexit Leaders?-
Yes, and on the totally remain-biased BBC, he gets first item on the news, no questioning on his narrative of 'betrayal' or rhetoric of putting the "fear of God" into MPs who are already regularly receiving death threats, or of "taking up a rifle" if Brexit isn't delivered (in the exact form he wants it, which he's never properly articulated despite having campaigned for it for over 20 years)...

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 13 Apr 2019, 21:54

The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by murf » 13 Apr 2019, 21:59

fancy dan wrote:
blahblah wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:33
eastcentral1 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:54
blahblah wrote:
7lb claimer wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 08:32
I'm a remainer but I can see the Brexit party doing well in these Euro elections. The message is so simple - betrayal - that it is hard to see anything in the lead up going wrong. Farage is good on TV as well. On the other hand the big parties are deeply divided and totally unconvincing. I really hope the Tiggers do well and attract more of the moderates to switch.
Betrayal of what though? ie what should have been negotiated?
Although Farage said before the ref that we could be like Norway or Switzerland, he now claims that any arrangement kind that would be a betrayal. A demonstrable lie, but people are easily taken in by his rhetoric.
Why haven't him and the others been taken to task over this?

(Assuming that lack of consistency is widespread among the Brexit Leaders?-
Yes, and on the totally remain-biased BBC, he gets first item on the news, no questioning on his narrative of 'betrayal' or rhetoric of putting the "fear of God" into MPs who are already regularly receiving death threats, or of "taking up a rifle" if Brexit isn't delivered (in the exact form he wants it, which he's never properly articulated despite having campaigned for it for over 20 years)...
Is this sarcasm?

The BBC led several days on the TIG Remain party as each MP joined in dribs and drabs and then when they thought of a name etc etc. Farage's party have had one day in this sun.

All of the TIG lot are less known/relevant politicians than Farage (whatever you think of him and my views are probably similar on this to most remainers)

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 13 Apr 2019, 23:03

Farage has never made it into the Commons despite several attempts, although if Brexit does eventually happen, he would still have a case for being the most successful politician of his generation, in terms of achieving his main objective!

The TIGgers/ChUKas were all elected as MPs, and in one case tipped as a future Labour leader before the party’s swing to the left... so it’s hard to compare in terms of significance, it’s comparing apples with oranges really.

Some Remainers are apparently calling it the British Brexit Corporation... the people really getting disproportionate coverage are probably the ERG Tory backbenchers and the DUP, I suppose they do effectively hold the balance of power, but when there’s a development we often tend to hear from them first at the expense of those with more balanced views.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 14 Apr 2019, 00:58

forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Zimmerman » 14 Apr 2019, 07:46

Two highlights this week:

The demand to get rid of Aldi (German)

The couple flying in from Benidorm to campaign for Brexit.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by blahblah » 14 Apr 2019, 08:22

Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 00:58
forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.
But all the airtime given to Cameron was pro-Brexit?

My issue with them is that they don't really ask their own questions and stick to the rhetoric of the other side. What does Arlene mean by Brexit? What would she accept? The same could be asked of quite a few "lauded" Brexiteers, its like Call my Bluff II.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Tacalabala » 14 Apr 2019, 08:38

blahblah wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 08:22
Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 00:58
forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.
But all the airtime given to Cameron was pro-Brexit?

My issue with them is that they don't really ask their own questions and stick to the rhetoric of the other side. What does Arlene mean by Brexit? What would she accept? The same could be asked of quite a few "lauded" Brexiteers, its like Call my Bluff II.
Aye, it's the lack of critique, the broadcasters in the main are scared to go deeper and confront politicians. It's shocking how they allow often blatant lies to slip under the radar, and as I've already said this blind faith in giving balance to views which aren't of equal value is very damaging.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Surprised » 14 Apr 2019, 09:40

Tacalabala wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 08:38
blahblah wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 08:22
Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 00:58
forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.
But all the airtime given to Cameron was pro-Brexit?

My issue with them is that they don't really ask their own questions and stick to the rhetoric of the other side. What does Arlene mean by Brexit? What would she accept? The same could be asked of quite a few "lauded" Brexiteers, its like Call my Bluff II.
Aye, it's the lack of critique, the broadcasters in the main are scared to go deeper and confront politicians. It's shocking how they allow often blatant lies to slip under the radar, and as I've already said this blind faith in giving balance to views which aren't of equal value is very damaging.
I've only ever seen one blatant lie challenged and that was last week. Andrew Bridgen I think said that no deal now had the majority with the public and he was asked to prove it. He then conceded it wasn't a majority but was growing. He then moaned about being asked questions on a political show.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 14 Apr 2019, 10:15

murf wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:59
fancy dan wrote:
blahblah wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:33
eastcentral1 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 13:54
blahblah wrote:
7lb claimer wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 08:32
I'm a remainer but I can see the Brexit party doing well in these Euro elections. The message is so simple - betrayal - that it is hard to see anything in the lead up going wrong. Farage is good on TV as well. On the other hand the big parties are deeply divided and totally unconvincing. I really hope the Tiggers do well and attract more of the moderates to switch.
Betrayal of what though? ie what should have been negotiated?
Although Farage said before the ref that we could be like Norway or Switzerland, he now claims that any arrangement kind that would be a betrayal. A demonstrable lie, but people are easily taken in by his rhetoric.
Why haven't him and the others been taken to task over this?

(Assuming that lack of consistency is widespread among the Brexit Leaders?-
Yes, and on the totally remain-biased BBC, he gets first item on the news, no questioning on his narrative of 'betrayal' or rhetoric of putting the "fear of God" into MPs who are already regularly receiving death threats, or of "taking up a rifle" if Brexit isn't delivered (in the exact form he wants it, which he's never properly articulated despite having campaigned for it for over 20 years)...
Is this sarcasm?

The BBC led several days on the TIG Remain party as each MP joined in dribs and drabs and then when they thought of a name etc etc. Farage's party have had one day in this sun.

All of the TIG lot are less known/relevant politicians than Farage (whatever you think of him and my views are probably similar on this to most remainers)
Not sarcasm, no - MPs quitting their parties is always a big deal, but they got a fair grilling as to their intent. Farage just seems to get a free pass to spout this narrative of betrayal, I've never seen him pulled up on his many inconsistencies, for example his he always used to cite Norway as an example of a successful country outside the EU. And I said a few pages back that I thought the BBC were doing a fair job of impartiality, but I think this is one of the areas where they've got it wrong.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 14 Apr 2019, 10:21

Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 00:58
forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.
The BBC can't help it if the facts, and the vast majority of businessmen, academics, lawyers etc support Remain.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 14 Apr 2019, 10:26

fancy dan wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 10:21
Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 00:58
forestfan wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 21:54
The BBC are clearly doing a good job of impartiality, given both sides of the Brexit debate feel they are biased against them...
This is broadly true now, although I do think the BBC were biased against Brexit during the campaign.

The thing about news is it's essentially about what's just happened or what's just been said, rather than what's not happened or not been said. Therefore those who make the most noise tend to get the most coverage, rather than it being a question of bias.
The BBC can't help it if the facts, and the vast majority of businessmen, academics, lawyers etc support Remain.
But now they’re arguably giving a disproportionate voice to the likes of Mark Francois and Steve Baker who have normalised the leave-means-leave, no deal-no problem argument that nobody was actively making during the referendum campaign.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 14 Apr 2019, 10:28

During and after the campaign the BBC prefaced any good economic news, of which there was plenty, with "Despite Brexit . . ." It became a national joke

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 14 Apr 2019, 10:36

Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 10:28
During and after the campaign the BBC prefaced any good economic news, of which there was plenty, with "Despite Brexit . . ." It became a national joke
Well, it’s a statement of fact that business and financial markets overwhelmingly view it negatively - both Brexit itself, and the uncertainty it causes. So any positive news is going to be swimming against that tide. Even the Brexiteers have adopted a “eff the economy” or “it might be a good thing in 50 years’ time” line.

I know there’s a few dissenting voices, such as “Tim Wetherspoon” (didn’t he fight Frank Bruno once?) and Mervyn King (I think people must be asking the darts player rather than the economist) but it seems 90% of business, unions, financial experts etc. speak with the same voice.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Billy Whiz » 14 Apr 2019, 10:40

@ forestfan earlier post: the BBC are now confusing being neutral, with not challenging "leave means leave without a deal" myths

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by blahblah » 14 Apr 2019, 11:02

Billy Whiz wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 10:40
@ forestfan earlier post: the BBC are now confusing being neutral, with not challenging "leave means leave without a deal" myths
Yep, and Brexit hasn't happened so there is no despite it, apart from the fear\hope of whatever it is\means. This may sound pedantic, but it is an important distinction and one of many reasons why I have hardly watched the News for almost 2 years - I'm expecting Carol Chell, Derek Griffiths and Brian Kant to oust some of the interviewers :wink:

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by murf » 14 Apr 2019, 18:35

I don't think the "not challenging" aspect has anything to do with bias or even Brexit. It is just a general symptom of modern politics and journalism. Partly dumbing down and partly not wanting to discourage future participants.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 14 Apr 2019, 19:22

Interesting Marr earlier, UKIP leader Gerard Batten denying Tommy Robinson is far-right, and David Lammy comparing Boris and Moggy to Nazis...

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 15 Apr 2019, 16:20

forestfan wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 19:22
Interesting Marr earlier, UKIP leader Gerard Batten denying Tommy Robinson is far-right, and David Lammy comparing Boris and Moggy to Nazis...
Batten is just a joke (but not a funny one).

Lammy will undoubtedly be dismissed as talking nonsense, but as a black man receiving regular death threats and racist abuse for daring to oppose Brexit, he should have a better idea than most. Anyone who doesn't think we're already on a slippery slope should acquaint themselves with Umberto Eco's 14 features of fascism: https://twitter.com/NickWhithorn/status ... 5805812736

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by murf » 15 Apr 2019, 19:23

fancy dan wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 16:20
forestfan wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 19:22
Interesting Marr earlier, UKIP leader Gerard Batten denying Tommy Robinson is far-right, and David Lammy comparing Boris and Moggy to Nazis...
Batten is just a joke (but not a funny one).

Lammy will undoubtedly be dismissed as talking nonsense, but as a black man receiving regular death threats and racist abuse for daring to oppose Brexit, he should have a better idea than most. Anyone who doesn't think we're already on a slippery slope should acquaint themselves with Umberto Eco's 14 features of fascism: https://twitter.com/NickWhithorn/status ... 5805812736
Lammy is talking nonsense. Receiving abuse is no excuse and he should therefore know better than most not to inflame things further. Labelling anybody (who isn't) as racists/nazis etc is pretty low, nearly as low as those making the racist comments.

The fear has to be that a non-Brexit will just encourage more and more idiots towards racism/zenophobia etc. Already happening to a degree with Batten/Robinson/UKIP. At least Farage isn't a racist.

The longer this drags on, the higher the idiot count on both sides.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by forestfan » 15 Apr 2019, 22:42

murf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 19:23
Lammy is talking nonsense. Receiving abuse is no excuse and he should therefore know better than most not to inflame things further. Labelling anybody (who isn't) as racists/nazis etc is pretty low, nearly as low as those making the racist comments.

The fear has to be that a non-Brexit will just encourage more and more idiots towards racism/zenophobia etc. Already happening to a degree with Batten/Robinson/UKIP. At least Farage isn't a racist.

The longer this drags on, the higher the idiot count on both sides.
Maybe the comparisons were a bit over the top, but he had a point in that they were associating themselves with people who are widely viewed as far-right/white supremacists (Bannon, AfD etc.)

I've heard it said that the far-right label is being thrown around too easily, that mainstream conservatism isn't "far-right" which is true in essence, but the lines between the two are becoming increasingly blurred, both here and elsewhere in the Western world.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 16 Apr 2019, 11:12

murf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 19:23
fancy dan wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 16:20
forestfan wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 19:22
Interesting Marr earlier, UKIP leader Gerard Batten denying Tommy Robinson is far-right, and David Lammy comparing Boris and Moggy to Nazis...
Batten is just a joke (but not a funny one).

Lammy will undoubtedly be dismissed as talking nonsense, but as a black man receiving regular death threats and racist abuse for daring to oppose Brexit, he should have a better idea than most. Anyone who doesn't think we're already on a slippery slope should acquaint themselves with Umberto Eco's 14 features of fascism: https://twitter.com/NickWhithorn/status ... 5805812736
Lammy is talking nonsense. Receiving abuse is no excuse and he should therefore know better than most not to inflame things further. Labelling anybody (who isn't) as racists/nazis etc is pretty low, nearly as low as those making the racist comments.
I'm guessing you didn't follow the link then. Fascists don't announce themselves saying they want to kill all the Jews.
murf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 19:23
The fear has to be that a non-Brexit will just encourage more and more idiots towards racism/zenophobia etc. Already happening to a degree with Batten/Robinson/UKIP. At least Farage isn't a racist.
Seriously? The man who 'feels uncomfortable' hearing people speaking foreign on the train, and wouldn't want to live next door to Romanians - not a racist? Not to mention:

Image
murf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 19:23
The longer this drags on, the higher the idiot count on both sides.
So you're saying we need to Brexit or idiots are going to become racist? Never mind that any Brexit we end up with is not going to satisfy them, so only make them angrier. Personally, I don't want the future of my country to be decided by racist idiots.

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by blahblah » 16 Apr 2019, 11:13

But his wife is German?

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by David Luiz Is A Hero » 16 Apr 2019, 11:22

blahblah wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 11:13
But his wife is German?
I don't think white people are the ones he has an issue with...

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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by fancy dan » 16 Apr 2019, 11:29


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Re: EU post referendum discussion [see page 136, T&Cs apply with zero tolerance]

Post by Surprised » 16 Apr 2019, 13:07

blahblah wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 11:13
But his wife is German?
He left her after she'd outlived her usefulness as his immigrant.

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