tff the future/any future?

[12345678]

all sounds abit like sour grapes to me I'm afraid.....tiresome reading these kind of threads now.....everyone knows the rules, if you don't like it don't play any more (like you keep threatening to do but always end up playing )

not at all, you are missing the point completely.

what i am saying is this, the only way you can win is by revolving defences and it is as boring as hell, you then have to rejig your teams between the group & knockout and make a load of mindless transfers.

it's why i over halved my entry compared to previous years, i'd rather do other stuff.

not sour grapes at all, i have given sandor full credit for his hard work and skill at the game, whereas others don't.

what I AM SAYING is that if the game is boring as hell and seen as giving large multis too big an edge it will unsurprisingly put players off. if i am cutting my entry in half and have enjoyed playing in bygone years how will the casual player feel?
If they try and mimic aspects of the sun game what are they left with? a pay to play game with lower prizemoney than a free game! the point i am making is that if they carry on like this then the game will not last!

i could say it's tiresome folk reading threads they are tired of then commenting on them, it achieves as much as your comment.

[Merlins_Apprentice]

Andy, it feels like groundhog day im afraid, i've been reading posts similar to these from you for what seems like years now.

I wasn't referring to the sandor part, just you harping on about FF dieing, you entering less teams, not entering any more etc etc.
You have been saying the same thing for years.....yet still entering.

If you don't like how the games are run anymore, don't enter them , its easy and i'll be happier

With 150,000 teams minimum entered in this competition, its clear that most people don't think the same as you. No doubt you can quote figures from years back of 250,000 playing and perhaps more, but the landscape of FF has changed, the user base is different and that isnt all down to the games providers. The fact is there is more competition from daily games now, which i dislike and therefore don't play but alot of people prefer that

Anyway you got me to post after probably 0 posts in 2 years so your post achieved something

[Merlins_Apprentice]

Merlin can you still do your magic on entry details, ie are more playing or are there just more players playing the multi game.

( not moaning just interested in how many players are doing)

TFF changed the way they show the leaderboards (probably because of me )so there is no obvious way to scroll through them.
Mini leagues are viewable so i could go through every mini league to get players points and positions and number of teams, but there would be far to many teams not in mini leagues for that to be worth the effort.
If anyone knows a way to scroll the leaderboard i'll take a look

Mike

[murf]

all sounds abit like sour grapes to me I'm afraid.....tiresome reading these kind of threads now.....everyone knows the rules, if you don't like it don't play any more (like you keep threatening to do but always end up playing )

I think that POV is completely wrong. This is about protecting something you love.

When Coke changed their formula, people moaned and it got changed back. They didn't just go along with the "drink something else then" line.

[Merlins_Apprentice]

Create a petition and see how many you get to sign it murf - i suspect it won't be many

[Matt70]

What can they do about it?

1) Limit the number of entrants per person to 15 per season/ competition. (they wont do that because it will cut the revenue down, as they recover large percentage of prize money from multi entrants)
2) Less transfers per season/ competition
3) Extra 1/2 points for Goals, or 1 point less for CS
4) Increase the entrant fees.

I think the main thing to realise though is that most players play for fun/ interest

[12345678]

Andy, it feels like groundhog day im afraid, i've been reading posts similar to these from you for what seems like years now.

I wasn't referring to the sandor part, just you harping on about FF dieing, you entering less teams, not entering any more etc etc.
You have been saying the same thing for years.....yet still entering.

If you don't like how the games are run anymore, don't enter them , its easy and i'll be happier

With 150,000 teams minimum entered in this competition, its clear that most people don't think the same as you. No doubt you can quote figures from years back of 250,000 playing and perhaps more, but the landscape of FF has changed, the user base is different and that isnt all down to the games providers. The fact is there is more competition from daily games now, which i dislike and therefore don't play but alot of people prefer that

Anyway you got me to post after probably 0 posts in 2 years so your post achieved something

lol

glad you clarified that, it is the extra transfers and increased c/s points in short run comps that don't work in tff. epl it isnt as much of an issue. just a personal view that ff should be about immediate goals and assists not drawn out c/s and certainly not managing 100+ teams with a ridiculous number of transfers for each team!

i'm not after timing here, i warned tff that sandor would be leading this as it effectively ruled out anyone not playing blocks (over 95% of entries you reckon maybe nearer 99%+?). not sure about someone else's point that this wasn't well put as he had 1/2/3 out of say 150k, glad you acknowledge that he is a very good player. murf is correct it's about trying to avoid the game closing. will i play tff epl this year yes probably (it doesn't suffer from c/s bias in the epl to anywhere near the same extent), will i reduce my entry again? maybe, will i increase it? no. if they make these short runs as boring as hell the entries will drop and the comps disappear.

i have had good humoured banter with quiz king about games disappearing for years, as you correctly say it's been going on ages. look at all the archived paper games, we are now down to sdt & tff world cup & epl plus sky for decent prizes, with fpl popular amongst 'fun' players. what i would say is my concerns have come home to roost, not only have games disappeared but to some extent there is 'no way back', we have seen silent manager in all it's guises pretty much retreat, ofl gone, clever.tv gone, fsb who ran the mail for a i haven't seen for a while. if tff goes and their survey is clearly making noises you have sdt & sky left that's all.

as murf says the point of the post is 'wake up' mainly aimed at gfm who i think are making bad wrong turns but also maybe those answering surveys that they take too much notice of lol.

re daily games i do play them, the rakes are appallingly high but there is still a small profit for the better players, for instance i played yahoo (uk entrants now all banned) until the end of the epl & made just over £7k starting part way through the season but i entered absolutely everything! i prefer seasonal but prefer DFS as they call it to tff wc. re DFS basically draft kings has a stranglehold at present so are getting away with rakes of 10% against the best players & 15% against weaker players roughly, there are others you can play but we have seen plenty go to the wall. i would say so far it hasn't caught on in the uk.

i'll definitely play sdt next season and almost certainly sky, tff i'll play with the same or a reduced entry. there isn't anything else left! sdt works for me as there is no clash with DFS, sky with it's cut off also pretty much works. tff i haven't put the same effort in to it this last year as it clashes with other stuff. so if i decide to reduce my entries or not prioritise them as much (which was the position last year) for me personally it will be a time issue not actually whether i want to play, nor whether the game has got worse but as murf says i would be very sad to see it go, even if i do decide to prioritise it even less or drop it altogether.

[Darkish]

This is the first time I have played a Telegraph fantasy game online and have found it brilliant. I love having so many transfers so have interest in a lot of games. This is fine for a quick tournament like world or European cup.

The point scoring system could be better and midfielders seem to be poor value so maybe more should be given to them. I think CS points are fine and in more other games have the same as a goal for the forward. I do understand the point about multiply entrants and having block defenses, so I don't understand what is the problem with only having a max of 3 players from each team (could increase by 1 for each know-out round).

I will be playing the game online for the coming season for the first time and am looking forward to it. I play for fun and really enjoy it. I don't target the main prizes but compete in the mini-leagues.

But limiting to 3 players per team would keep the enjoyment for majority and lessen the power of multiple block entries. I know you can use the same tactic but have to hit a lot more clean sheet games or opens the opportunity to mix and match strategies.

[12345678]

What can they do about it?

1) Limit the number of entrants per person to 15 per season/ competition. (they wont do that because it will cut the revenue down, as they recover large percentage of prize money from multi entrants)
2) Less transfers per season/ competition
3) Extra 1/2 points for Goals, or 1 point less for CS
4) Increase the entrant fees.

I think the main thing to realise though is that most players play for fun/ interest

1) i don't like that as no one has banned back door entrants effectively since ism with cyki. it leads to arguments and accusations when those running the comp treat it as entries per ID, the reason speaking with providers is clearly to reduce dominated leaderboards.
2) i personally think that would be an improvement but it isn't as ridiculous as tff wc in tff epl.
3) in short runs unless you want a mockery of a comp you have to do (something) it! in epl you could do it if you wanted to.
4) not sure, you could lose entrants, i have a feeling they had kind of tested the water here by making initial entries cheaper.

agreed re your last comment. my main point at the start of this was making it about effectively revolving clean sheets and throwing loads and loads of time at processing transfers is as boring as hell and will put casual players off, realising they have zero chance without revolving blocks in short run comps will also put them off.

i think for me we have exhausted the topic now.

it's really up to tff, do they want to address the short run comp issues, do they want to make their game very similar to sdt except it has lower prizes and you have to pay to enter or do they want to strengthen their own brand?

[get_on_my_cocker]

as murf says the point of the post is 'wake up' mainly aimed at gfm who i think are making bad wrong turns but also maybe those answering surveys that they take too much notice of lol.

You do realise gfm run the sky game too?

[12345678]

as murf says the point of the post is 'wake up' mainly aimed at gfm who i think are making bad wrong turns but also maybe those answering surveys that they take too much notice of lol.

You do realise gfm run the sky game too?

i rarely visit fiso these days, preferring facebook groups or chatting with a couple of guys online or on the phone.

however i posted this elsewhere in december 2012

http://www.clever.tv/#&panel1-1 (star, mff & bild)



http://www.gfm.co.uk/ (tff, sky, mail, sdt)



http://corporate.fantasyleague.com/ (ofl )



http://www.ismltd.com/fantasy (ultimate)



http://www.fsbtech.com/ (ex metro

[get_on_my_cocker]

My point being that gfm will only do as the client wishes. so with sky they run a game that seems pretty popular because thats what sky asked them to do and how they wanted the site to run. same with tff, they will only run the tele game in the way the tele want them to run it.

[12345678]

My point being that gfm will only do as the client wishes. so with sky they run a game that seems pretty popular because thats what sky asked them to do and how they wanted the site to run. same with tff, they will only run the tele game in the way the tele want them to run it.

agree an extremely valid point, chatting with games providers in the past i can confirm that you are correct.

that said i believe that the likes of gfm should be able to provide cogent arguments to improve games rather than dismantling them

prior to that december 2012 post we had already lost the scottish paper games and the times who were one of the biggest providers of fantasy football games disappeared after an unfortunate huge 'backdoor entry' attempt in a limited entry game, often these limits are brought in to avoid a dominated leaderboard by a single player, in those days there was a specialist in the times game who dominated their leaderboard (although i am not sure he ever won it).

if ff players think my warnings about games disappearing when they are poorly run are wrong that is their personal judgement call.

[CptPugwash]

I don't think you can sensibly try & reduce multiples entries in a paid game. What i'd like to see is it being much harder to manage multiple entries.

Limiting players per team would go a long way to achieving that - as you can't then blindly whizz through switching entire blocks. If anyone is old enough to remember the Times FF World Cup from 2002 - that was limited to 1 player per team in the group stage. Even with a 1000 entries you'd struggle to get decent coverage of that.

As for this particular game, 46 transfers was clearly far too many, and having a transfer amnesty removes a huge element of the strategy from the game.

[murf]

The main issue (WC aside) is the steamroller that is FPL. To challenge that TFF have to be different and that, like it or loathe it, means multi entries. They also dumb down to be like it.......

[blahblah]

The main issue (WC aside) is the steamroller that is FPL. To challenge that TFF have to be different and that, like it or loathe it, means multi entries. They also dumb down to be like it.......

Yep to FPL. Competition leads to monopoly and in the UK it is almost there. They need to police the multi-entrants far better, but maybe the GW by Gw Comp thn gs are better, and Bookies could run similar things to the foreign lotteries?

[CptPugwash]

There are only 2 things Game Providers care about (1 in a free game). Traffic & entries (only in paid games), anything else is irrelevant.

I don't play TFF because i don't want to have to be forced to log on 3 or 4 times a week every week for 8 months to have a chance of winning. Unfortunately, from my point of view, as far as I can see changes that would make any FF game more appealing to me, reduce traffic.

There are lots of good ideas out there to make FF a more satisfying game, but unless they improve traffic & or entries, or at the very least don't have a negative effect, they will never be implemented.

[zipnolan]

A few thoughts from me:

- TFF still a very good game for things like work leagues, etc, where each person has only one or two entries. Harder to play a full-throttle block strategy in that context. Not good, though, that the most enjoyable versions of the game come when it's been customised (e.g. Egg Cup, Tiny league).

- Agree that this TFF WC game is pretty much of a slog. I do think SK has a huge edge now - let's say he has about eight teams in contention. With every KO match so far 1-1, today is critical - he can share block moves between Brazil, Belgium, Mexico, probably not Japan, and even keep back a Croatia and a Russia block for later if he wishes. Since the order of play makes this the most likely block-shift day, I expect Sandor's top teams to go flying in different directions tomorrow like fireworks in the sky. Unless these games are all 1-1 too, of course. Whatever happens he will still have be in first with one of the top three. By contrast I have one team (a Croatia block) in the top 100, and have to decide which of those directions to take. Odds are I'll soon be history.

- Don't agree that the Sun WCDT is a good game for a purist. The interface is rubbish (they can't even be arsed to update the players who have been eliminated in a consistent way). The bonus points scoring is a joke, with both winning KO goalkeepers as "star Man" after the penalty shoot-outs, with Neymar overrewarded for every pirhouette, with Fabianski credited with a penalty save for a rocket launched from a Peruvian boot. Half the players weren't listed. The good and challenging bits are limited total transfers and the three transfers per day rule, which at least give cause for thought.

- FPL, despite murf's distaste, does remain the purist's game, or at at least the game for statistics and strategy nerds. Only need to read some of the threads here to see how immensely seriously people take it. Never going to attract Andy, or anybody else who wants to have better odds than a three million to one shot to win a pair of tickets or a goody bag.

- Finally, TFF has some inherently good points. The live scoring is good, no real problem with the key contribution definition now, and the whole thing is efficiently run . The problem is it is continually going in a wrong direction - why it added yet another point for a defensive clean sheet a couple of years ago (multis must have wet the bed) I can't begin to understand. Let's just hope this farcical number of transfers and team resetting is confined to the WC game.

[bluenosey]

First TFF World Cup I haven't played since it started.

Just far too many transfers available. Far too much hassle. Plus I haven't had the time off work.

I did play The Stun Dream Team though. Transfers seemed about right, even if lots of players were missing

[murf]

Not sure FPL is a "purist's" game when it has so many fake plastic things to it from chips to captains to wildcards.

I do agree it has some good features in theory like single entry and in some ways I like the way you slowly mould your team although it is a bit inflexible and has too many transfers overall.

I do personally like the TFF inter-flange transfer regime but can see why it is not for everyone and I sometimes hate the hold it has over me but still much prefer it to the single blindfold FPL deadline. Each to their own on that one I think.

Maybe I am jaded but I mainly play TFF for the tweaked sidegames too these days. Eggcup, Block league, FISO 500, my new Highlander league (plug, plug) etc and have very few teams played 'normally'. Think it was just 2 last year (and they were in £25 league and drunken league respectively). Shame the banter and entry on many of these is also down on the peak years but there are enough of us old limpets clinging on to make it still enjoyable.

And I'm gonna win the £50k next year.

Is it still £50k? Did it used to be £100k? Will it ever matter to most of us?????

[Spinynorman]

I still class TFF as my main game although SDT is a lot better than it used to be. As many have said the TFF the side games make it better which is also the case with SDT. I always harbour the fantasy that I could win TFF (although I seem to getting worse at it) whereas I feel there is no chance of that happening with FPL or SDT.

[morganb]

I'm only in it for the side games and the chit chat thread.

For the WC version I've only put effort into the FISO draft and goalscoring leagues.

The only other game I play is FPL which is OK but I simply prefer TFF more. Each to their own I guess.

[12345678]

it's interesting to hear the different points of view and ideas and an appreciation of the effects of what tff have done in most quarters now.

i would like to see defenders points reduced by 1, it doesn't matter as much in seasonal, but if it was coupled with more transfers i think that would damage the tff epl game very close to beyond repair.

tff wc & tff cl are just a revolving defences joke because of it with ridiculous high maintenance that only someone as singular minded as sandor could find appealing.

at least everyone reading this now knows the only way to win tff wc & tff cl is by revolving defences, might be as boring as hell...... but if you want to play to win..... i think very few players realise.

re sdt i have been very critical of some past goings on, but you can't do that and not credit improvements. the player list is a bit disappointing, but the (non subjective) ratings and motm & fewer transfers are all good in sdt wc & make revolving defences pretty tough and unlikely to be rewarded, the block on transfers for teams that have played that day are a bit daft and needless tbh, sometimes you can take the core of an epl game too far in other formats.

they did foul up with the revaluations when first introduced, not thinking through that it would kill the monthly game (something i chatted with 'the postman' about in advance) and sure enough it died!

the structure of the game is now better than tff though i think and for purely selfish reasons the effect of the rules on timings suits me very well.

when you look at the list of games and games providers above that are now extinct it still amuses me when i am criticised for (moaning) pointing out games disappearing and being under threat.

we now have sdt thriving, sky seems to have a ticker still and tff under threat of the main prize games. this is a very short list compared to the past. fpl is a bit of a monster, very surprised they ditched ufpl which i did play, but yeah one for the geeks n addicts as said above i just can't see the point of all the effort with no chance of any reward beyond a pat on the back

[Spinynorman]

i just can't see the point of all the effort with no chance of any reward beyond a pat on the back

I would love to be in with the chance of a pat on the back.

[Yorkshire Exile]

It is only 3 years since clean sheets went up from 6 to 7 points (Inc starting) and this was I think in response to the strategy of loading up on cheap defenders and having a premium forward line.

Personally I don't mind the greater scoring for defenders as it means that it is an 11 position game. What does need to align properly is the pricing.

If you have a 3.8m defender scoring the same as a 5+ mid it becomes a no brainer. It also enables 3 premium forwards.

The short game does suffer from blocks and people covering the perms. In the seasonal game there is still more 'skill' (not wishing to reopen that debate) about picking the right players at the right time.

I personally think there are too many transfers. Reducing this would stymie block rotation as it would leave you exposed to injuries and striker form....

Mass entry in tff is a bit annoying but not against rules. I enter around 25 teams per year many of which play in side games.... I guess I have 15 or so genuine teams. I would still back myself against mass entrants as I appreciate what a ball ache it must be. One year I entered around 60 teams and had the worst season ever.

I still think tff is the best game. Sun pricing means unless you catch the first wave right you are really up against it.....


Edit: just realised Andy l was only mentioning WC and cl game.... So my points are largely regarding tff pl.... I hate the short games.... Because I largely can't be arsed just covering bases.... That and not being very good..

[bloggie]

I won the TFF CL just gone without defence block switches albeit PSG defence scored highly who most people up there would have had anyway plus contending the golden boot in the process then had just an averagely good mixed defence in the knockout stages. Not that the defence switches aren't viable in certain scenarios as Sandor has shown in the group stages.

[Darbyand]

Taking the thread title literally, any predictions for what the new season long game will bring? I'm assuming it'll launch shortly after the world cup to have a 4 week run-up to the first games (11 August). IIRC they talked about a transfer amnesty midway through the season and I could see that happening as a way to re-invigorate abandoned teams and drive more traffic, possibly have a second half of the season comp....they did that about 10 years ago minus the amnesty. They also keep going on about points for defensive midfielders so could see something happening there.


EDIT, just realised this is in the International games sub forum so might not be the best place to continue this.

[murf]

It is only 3 years since clean sheets went up from 6 to 7 points (Inc starting) and this was I think in response to the strategy of loading up on cheap defenders and having a premium forward line.

Personally I don't mind the greater scoring for defenders as it means that it is an 11 position game. What does need to align properly is the pricing.

If you have a 3.8m defender scoring the same as a 5+ mid it becomes a no brainer. It also enables 3 premium forwards.

The short game does suffer from blocks and people covering the perms. In the seasonal game there is still more 'skill' (not wishing to reopen that debate) about picking the right players at the right time.

I personally think there are too many transfers. Reducing this would stymie block rotation as it would leave you exposed to injuries and striker form....

Mass entry in tff is a bit annoying but not against rules. I enter around 25 teams per year many of which play in side games.... I guess I have 15 or so genuine teams. I would still back myself against mass entrants as I appreciate what a ball ache it must be. One year I entered around 60 teams and had the worst season ever.

I still think tff is the best game. Sun pricing means unless you catch the first wave right you are really up against it.....


Edit: just realised Andy l was only mentioning WC and cl game.... So my points are largely regarding tff pl.... I hate the short games.... Because I largely can't be arsed just covering bases.... That and not being very good..

The defensive point change didn't actually reward clean sheets. Yes you got an extra point but nothing was them taken off for the first goal conceded so, effectively, every starting defender gained a point. Was some minor tweaks for those being subbed on or off but realistically only improved the value of regular starters over the Kolarovs.

[streety]

Been playing the TFF game for a fair few years now and won't be doing it for the first time next season. The fun has been taken out of it since you can make transfers in-between games, it has killed my works superleague with the casual players not bothered to take advantage of 3for1s, for example.

I feel that you get too many transfers with mistakes not costing as you can just transfer them out and the relaxed budget isn't challenging. I would prefer to have a game where you can only choose 1/2 players from a team to add more skill to the game.

I have really enjoyed the FPL game this season. Having a deadline to get my team ready for, leaving my weekends for enjoying the matches rather than scrambling to make transfers in-between games. The site run draft game is brilliant, TFF are missing a trick.

[12345678]

'The defensive point change didn't actually reward clean sheets. Yes you got an extra point but nothing was them taken off for the first goal conceded so, effectively, every starting defender gained a point. Was some minor tweaks for those being subbed on or off but realistically only improved the value of regular starters over the Kolarovs.
[/quote]

think there is some chopped logic here murf 'you got an extra point' seems pretty clear cut

i know what you are trying to say though, clean sheets were not rewarded due to the first goal not being deducted. my point is ALL defenders gain a point, clean sheet or not!

that is not the issue though comparing with other defenders, the issue is comparing with m/f & str.

not only are defenders given an extra point for the clean sheet but also for the first goal conceded. the effect is to add a point to each defender appearance regardless of whether they concede or not, which was the intention

this has in my view killed tff wc & tff cl making them revolving defence vehicles due to the multiplication of hits, if tff epl had as many transfers it would damage it in the same way but to a lesser extent. the sample size of games would mean the hits on defences would need to be over more games, the beauty of the tff wc defensive hits is 1 game and you are out, job done!