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Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

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Is it time for TFF to ditch the FA Cup?

Ditch the Cup
15
23%
Keep the Cup
49
77%
 
Total votes: 64

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Tom QC
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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Tom QC »

One part of TFF is attaching more value to players who are likely to take penalties, and I don't see why points totals should suffer just because the goal someone scores is a penalty. It's still a goal and should be rewarded with the normal +5pts.

Penalising players -3pts for giving away penalties is equally dubious. What if the penalty is missed - why should there be a deduction when it doesn't affect the scoreline? Isn't it enough that the player is likely to lose points from conceding the goal (if a DEF/GK as most often is), and possibly a red/yellow card as well? Should a player who gives away a free kick which is directly scored from also be docked -3pts? If not why not? Why don't players who make obvious howlers get docked points for conceding during open play?

Keeping it simple is better. Players lose and gain points in relation to penalties in exactly the same way they do for other goals.

Then for shoot-out in my opinion the only realistic options are (1) what we now have, where shoot-outs don't count (2) the old system where you could gain/lose points from shoot-outs in terms of goals, misses, and saves (as with normal penalties outside of shoot-outs), but nothing counted towards goals conceded/clean sheet points.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by morganb »

Transfers until kick off is one of the best things about TFF!

Regarding the FA Cup - I think it should stay and I liked the penalty shootout scoring points as you could transfer in a keeper with the hope of getting a few points if the replay went to pens. Perhaps the scoring could be tinkered with though...

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Striker »

hancockjr wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 15:28 I think FA cup should stay, it differentiates it from other games. There is lots of luck but enough skill to justify it staying, given the extra interest it generates.

The oddity of pens was that keepers got save points but not negatives for goals conceded.

I would:

- make penalty goals worth 3 points only (always, not just shootouts)
- minus three for the player who gives it away
- minus 2 for missed pen
- three points for pen save

I’d then bring them back for shoot outs, but keepers lose a point for each goal conceded in the shootout (defenders don’t)

That way a keeper should gain but not so much and could even lose.

I’d also have every transfer deadline 75 minutes before first ko of the day, but that’s another story.

That's a perfectly tenable point of view but it shows how divergent the views of fantasy managers are as I disagree with much of it. :D

I would keep a scored penalty at 5 pts but I would increase the score for missing back to -5. A goal is a goal but a player who takes penalties has a big TFF advantage, and losing 5 pts for missing evens things up slightly. I'm sure that TFF were pandering to the masses when they reduced the cost of missing from 5 to 2 pts, but in doing so were dumbing down that aspect of the game.

I would however agree that a player conceding a penalty should lose pts, perhaps 2. The argument in the following post that a player shouldn't be penalised as a penalty might be missed is spurious.

I'd keep the reward for saving a penalty at 5pts. It's as significant as scoring a goal and is a way of bringing keepers' scoring potential a bit closer to that of other players.

The deadline issue will always be present. Personally I'd keep the present system but it is unfair to those who can rarely be on-line at key kick off times.

However some managers tend to exaggerate how much they are handicapped and the extent to which they are not the master of their own lives. I'm on-line for about half of all kick offs, but I'd say that I only really NEED to be on-line for about 5% of them. If I know that I can't get on-line at any time of a key day, I'll do most transfers before I go out. I'd say that this probably costs me under one transfer per team per season. In those rare cases where a key element of the starting XI is really uncertain, and potentially important for one of my better two or three teams, I'll make sure that I get the team news on my phone and do the relevant transfer(s). Very few people if the transfer is important enough can't do this. How many surgeons who are involved in long emergency operations at the weekends, (and the like), are there involved in TFF? Any arguments relating to wife and kids are totally spurious. Everyone can take off 10 minutes for a key transfer or two in virtually any social environment, even when acting as best man or whatever.

But anyone who regularly works weekends, and are the servant of an inflexible employer, may well have a case for an early daily deadline.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by murf »

Striker wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 16:51 I would increase the score for missing back to -5. A goal is a goal but a player who takes penalties has a big TFF advantage, and losing 5 pts for missing evens things up slightly. I'm sure that TFF were pandering to the masses when they reduced the cost of missing from 5 to 2 pts, but in doing so were dumbing down that aspect of the game.

I would however agree that a player conceding a penalty should lose pts, perhaps 2. The argument in the following post that a player shouldn't be penalised as a penalty might be missed is spurious.
Agree with the first one - too much pandering to the masses who sob when they don't get a big score.

Second one, I would disagree with but it may become valid if VAR is a success. Imagine your defender losing extra points on top of his CS points when a forward wins a penalty with a dive!!! Also not always clear what a pen is awarded for, especially if 2 players challenge the forward.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Tom QC »

Striker wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 16:51 I would however agree that a player conceding a penalty should lose pts, perhaps 2. The argument in the following post that a player shouldn't be penalised as a penalty might be missed is spurious.
Please feel free to elaborate as to why you find my reasoning specious.

If there's no impact on the score-line, why should the player be "punished" in TFF terms? The only other deductions relate to goals (goals conceded, missed pens) or disciplinary/conduct issues (cards).

Those deductions pertain to clear and concrete events during the game. For penalties awarded it's not always clear who has conceded the penalty: either because of simultaneous challenges suggested by murf, or because the referee blows after sequential challenges either of which could have been the offending foul. Unless a card is given to the culprit it's not clear who was at fault. So there is always going to be a potential uncertainty relating to the concession of a penalty which makes it a flawed basis on which to deduct points.

My other points were:

(1) There isn't a proper justification for distinguishing between a foul/handball which leads to a penalty and one which leads to a direct free kick. Both can result directly in a goal without any open play, and are only separated by a matter of geographical location. Sometimes referees even get the location of the foul wrong (i.e. inside/outside the box!). It is therefore an insufficiently certain basis on which to deduct points.

(2) It is enough of a "punishment" that your player can receive a yellow/red card (and possible suspension!) for the challenge as well as losing points for conceding from the penalty (if a DEF/GK).

EDIT: I should have added OGs as well to the deductions, which again are certain and related to the score-line.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

Striker - it’s not just time it’s connectivity. I live in an area of poor mobile coverage and some places are especially bad, often sports clubs. Playing sport may give only a small inconvenient window to transfer. Combined with a poor connection (especially if the site is slow, it often is) can mean missing out.

It’s also not just team news, you’d often want to know how a player has just played. If you want,say, Hazard in for the 5.30 ko you may have several candidates for the chop, and be keen to know how they have done. With once daily deadlines you always get overnight to find out, “in a flange” it’s often not possible if you actually have a life.

Interestingly I had to do a transfer during a Stewart Lee show recently. I got away with it but he caught someone else on a phone and stuck it down his trousers (back) for the rest of the gig!

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

I can’t recall a penalty where no-one knew who gave it away. Very rare at most. If the ref refuses to say (can he?) then no minus points, if it ever happens.

Already you get an assist for winning the penalty, but not a free kick, do negatives for one not the other would be consistent.

Seems I’ve really derailed the thread though, well done me!!!

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Tom QC »

You did used to get a KC for winning a direct free-kick which is scored without another player touching the ball. Or has that changed as well?

It's all very well to say "oh in that case we won't give out any minus points" but that's not exactly a good way to handle rule-making. The problem is there is an inherent possibility of uncertainty which you don't get with cards, goals conceded, missed pens, or OGs.

By the way I definitely recall seeing at least one penalty when there were sequential challenges either of which could have been the foul which the penalty was given for, but unfortunately I have no idea when or where it was! :roll:

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by buttonphobic »

hancockjr wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 15:28 I think FA cup should stay, it differentiates it from other games. There is lots of luck but enough skill to justify it staying, given the extra interest it generates.

The oddity of pens was that keepers got save points but not negatives for goals conceded.

I would:

- make penalty goals worth 3 points only (always, not just shootouts)
- minus three for the player who gives it away
- minus 2 for missed pen
- three points for pen save

I’d then bring them back for shoot outs, but keepers lose a point for each goal conceded in the shootout (defenders don’t)

That way a keeper should gain but not so much and could even lose.

I’d also have every transfer deadline 75 minutes before first ko of the day, but that’s another story.
Agree with all your points

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

Maybe you do get a KC for winning a free kick - I barely play TFF now due to the multi deadlines in a day. I keep it up for the combo competition but that's it.

And thanks buttonphobic, glad someone is like minded!

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Eddie Elbows »

NO!

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by brencarr »

hancockjr wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 15:28 .... I’d also have every transfer deadline 75 minutes before first ko of the day, but that’s another story.
Hell no! Sorry Hancockjr (I've read your subsequent posts too) but I would hate this, it's bad enough in 'the other place' but I love this aspect of TFF - who could live without flanges? (I acknowledge you did say that was a different question :) )

I'm not sure about the penalty shoot-out question, I guess as long as we know at the start of the season and we can decide if we want to bring in a goalkeeper for a potential shootout (a task in itself) then we know the rules .... I'm ambivalent.

I wouldn't penalise a defender for giving away a penalty and - if an FA Cup match ends 0-0, I think that should mean clean-sheet points all round with just the 'keepers and penalty takers going on to lose/gain points with the normal +/- points system .... which probably means I am in favour of the old system where shoot-outs DO count :)

I also think the one-word answer of a man who regularly contributes 500-word posts should be given great weight .... i.e. Eddie Elbows' 'NO!' to the original question.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by SPR »

murf wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 11:35
SPR wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 09:29 Dropping penalty shootouts was right IMO.
Yep, not worthy of the numerous 5pt swings. I'd consider 'downgrading' it so each goal/save/miss counts as 1 or 2 pts (+ or -)
I think this is the best suggestion if penalty shootouts are to be included. They shouldn't be classed as real goals as they aren't anywhere else.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

brencarr wrote: 20 Jan 2018, 08:59
I wouldn't penalise a defender for giving away a penalty and - if an FA Cup match ends 0-0, I think that should mean clean-sheet points all round with just the 'keepers and penalty takers going on to lose/gain points with the normal +/- points system .... which probably means I am in favour of the old system where shoot-outs DO count :)

I may be wrong but I don’t think points were lost for conceding in penalty shootouts - keepers could gain but not lose. That seemed especially wrong to me.

I do get that people can decide but shoot outs under the old rules, to me, just had too much points swings for the luck involved. Accept its personal choice though.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

Re the transfer deadline, TFF players may want to wonder why FPL now has 5m players and TFF about 200k(?).

Both are free to enter for one team, but only one is becoming ever more popular.

Dedicated players on here may think that multi flanges give them an advantage over the casual player but in fact the casual players are leaving/have left, which seems a bit defeatist.

Not claiming it’s all about the deadlines but I wouldn’t mind betting it plays a significant part, for instance in choosing which game to use for a work league.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by murf »

FPL is largely popular due to two reasons:
1. The backing/pushing of the Premier league
2. The access for foreign players (attracted by 1 where they wouldn't know the Telegraph from the Cincinatti Bugle)

The game itself is awful (IMO of course)

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Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by jacksosi »

murf wrote:FPL is largely popular due to two reasons:
1. The backing/pushing of the Premier league
2. The access for foreign players (attracted by 1 where they wouldn't know the Telegraph from the Cincinatti Bugle)

The game itself is awesome (IMO of course)
Corrected that for you Image

I would have thought the no.1 reason was that it was free.
Even if TFF is now free for one team (?), presumably many people had already left for the free FPL game by then.

other big reasons are...
- being able to enter the same team into multiple leagues, rather than having to spend even more buying additional teams, and then manage all of those teams
- having a squad of 15 rather than just a first 11, makes it way more interactive
- having a single deadline for the weekend, so it is set and forget rather than needing intra weekend changes which does not suit many.

All of the other FPL toys split opinion, so I wouldn’t count those, but may be a draw for some (price moves, captaincy, chips etc)

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by murf »

TFF allows entry in 3 leagues. Not sure many would want more. The thing stopping the sidegames on here is the entry cut off.

Not sure people prefer squads. The old TFFO variation featured squads and was discontinued due to falling numbers.

The single deadline is a personal choice thing. I prefer the more interactive multiple flanges of TFF.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Striker »

jacksosi wrote: 20 Jan 2018, 13:36
murf wrote:FPL is largely popular due to two reasons:
1. The backing/pushing of the Premier league
2. The access for foreign players (attracted by 1 where they wouldn't know the Telegraph from the Cincinatti Bugle)

The game itself is awesome (IMO of course)
Corrected that for you Image

I would have thought the no.1 reason was that it was free.
Even if TFF is now free for one team (?), presumably many people had already left for the free FPL game by then.

other big reasons are...
- being able to enter the same team into multiple leagues, rather than having to spend even more buying additional teams, and then manage all of those teams
- having a squad of 15 rather than just a first 11, makes it way more interactive
- having a single deadline for the weekend, so it is set and forget rather than needing intra weekend changes which does not suit many.

All of the other FPL toys split opinion, so I wouldn’t count those, but may be a draw for some (price moves, captaincy, chips etc)

As regards awesome or awful, the truth is obviously somewhere in between. Personally FPL is my least favourite game of the four that I play and only play it for the synergy that it has occasionally with the other fantasy games. However the popularity of FPL clearly suggests that it is an excellent game for many people.

I'm guessing that the main reason for the gulf in entries between it and TFF is MOMENTUM. Once a game gains popularity it will often continue to gain players as those new to fantasy will often play the game that their friends are playing. That of course leaves the question of how it won popularity in the first place. Here there are a number of reasons. Top is as you suggest is the fact that it is free. I find it amazing that a manager's choice of fantasy game is highly influenced by price. You pay a few pence a week for a TFF team, and even if you pay the highest price possible for a team, you won't pay much more than the cost of a pint for the whole season. Nevertheless forums such as this show that price is a key factor, even though the cost of entry is nothing compared with the opportunity cost of the time devoted to playing. Amazing priorities some people have, so that a few pence are the key determining factor.

Secondly as has been mentioned the ability to play FPL anywhere in the world. Thirdly the other points that you've listed; the single deadline for a game week is good especially for those in other time zones. In addition the updating of scores etc on FPL is pretty good and consistent.

I think that the other points that you mention a squad of 15 rather than 11, and the various bells and whistles of FPl (chips etc) tend to keep players loyal to FPL once they've started playing rather than attracting them in the first place. This leads onto a key advantage of FPL is that once someone is hooked on the game, they only need play one team in FPL and no other games to maintain a significant fantasy interest over the season. And once people are hooked there are other attractions such as their history against which they judge their current performance etc.

By contrast anyone playing other fantasy games are unlikely to be able to rely on just one team if they want to guarantee a season long interest in the game. I find it particularly interesting that there is on Fiso and elsewhere a split between FPL and TFF (and other game) managers. Although quite a lot of managers play both games, very few give the same devotion and weight to the different games. If you look at the better managers in both groups there is a different emphasis. Other game managers like the idea of potentially winning cash etc (some even put considerable effort in trying to win small sum in weeklies etc :roll: ), while the better FPL managers tend to be far more anal about the game than the most successful TFF/Sky/Dreamteam/other game managers.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by hancockjr »

I don't really disagree with most of what has been said, I was definitely simplifying things but I do think the multi deadlines are a large point.

Try convincing a casual work leaguebthey should spend their weekend doing transfers rather than Friday lunchtime.

I first played TFF, now barely play it for this reason.

Nearly had another example at the weekend - had Christensen been badly injured, or had they got midweek fixtures, anyone not watching/transferring would have given up an advantage to those who were, assuming a suitable transfer was available for them.

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Re: Should TFF ditch the FA Cup?

Post by Striker »

hancockjr wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 20:36 Nearly had another example at the weekend - had Christensen been badly injured, or had they got midweek fixtures, anyone not watching/transferring would have given up an advantage to those who were, assuming a suitable transfer was available for them.

That's a point that a lot of people would agree with. But I believe that the advantage is minimal. The transfer that you didn't use if you weren't around is still available to you and it's highly unlikely, on average (as obviously in some instances an immediate transfer will pay off), to cost fantasy points as many "instant" decisions are the ones which you most frequently regret.

In fact the TFF transfer system does have advantages over FPL. If I forget to make, or can't make a TFF transfer I'll never lose it. But if you forget to make an FPL transfer when you have two free transfers available, you really do lose it. Even if it doesn't involve losing a transfer, if you miss the FPL deadline, that's it for another week (for me that's been a reality several times), but if you miss a planned transfer in TFF, you may have several opportunities to make a slightly different one in its place later that day or on the following day.

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