Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

[Groomyd]

I understand what you're saying but the definition of 'best' is what it is.

Sports men and women are improving year on year. Often to the detriment of the entertainment aspect but nonetheless they are better.

Yes but it just means that we get better - we know that!

Runners get faster, jumpers get higher and longer, footballers fitter and stronger ...................

So you have to ask yourself how good would the brazilians of 1970 have been if they had been brought up in today's regeme rather than ask yourself what would happen if they played tomorrow.

People for example say that Rod Laver is the greatest ever tennis player - he'd not get a point off Djokavic if they played tomorrow (and dont say thats cos he's dead )

[rossn13]

People for example say that Rod Laver is the greatest ever tennis player - he'd not get a point off Djokavic if they played tomorrow (and dont say thats cos he's dead )

He's still very much alive!

[Groomyd]

He's still very much alive!

I thought he might be as i typed it but couldnt be arsed to check!

[bigsheff]

It's impossible to judge, true, but it's not unfair to say that the overall standard of opposition is now much higher in this era that Spain are dominating, there arent many shit teams nowadays and Spain are sweeping aside all before them.

Completely disagree. IMHO the overall standard of international football is at an all-time low; Spain are the shining lights in a sea of mediocrity.

Give Over! i've seen clips of old Brazil teams playing "world cup final games" against teams who didn't even know the bloody rules!
The overall standard across the board is much higher than its ever been, teams are now more tecnically & tactically aware than they've ever been, you only have to look at the African teams to see that.

You can't ever compare teams like for like but you can use what they were up against as a starting point.
Sounds like Brazil 70 v Spain 08/12 would've been some game though.

Well... if Brazil got a kick anyway

[mikeg13]

Well... if Brazil got a kick anyway

Thats one of reasons not convinced about Spain as yet, That Brazil took just about every chance they got, Spain dont so they may have only needed the one.
It is one of those debates that fortunately has no answer, game is so different these days, but this has been a very good thread.
Every chance in 40 odd years same argument will come up and Spain will be in Brazil's place

[bigsheff]

but this has been a very good thread.
Every chance in 40 odd years same argument will come up and Spain will be in Brazil's place

This is a proper MTIBTYT thread & like you say there is no real answer only opinions.

Just a thought... are those against Spain willing to change their opinion in future years or set in their ways, because potentially they could still get better, imagine if they have a real star striker. maybe a little more flamboyance would also tilt it in their favour.

[Groomyd]

imagine if they have a real star striker.

David Villa not good enough for ya?!

[bigsheff]

imagine if they have a real star striker.

David Villa not good enough for ya?!

yeah he certainly is (but he's also 31 this year), and usually plays wide left

[Rick]

Still waiting for someone who actually watched the 1970 tournament to say Spain now are better. It's not happened yet, only people who weren't old enough are saying it.

I think that says lot, if it was even close then there would be someone at least saying 'well maybe Spain are better', but no one is saying that. The fact is Brazil 70 weren't just better than this Spanish team, they were much better. They didn't need penalties to win their trophies (3 WC's in 12 years).

[Tricky Tree]

Still waiting for someone who actually watched the 1970 tournament to say Spain now are better. It's not happened yet, only people who weren't old enough are saying it.

I think that says lot, if it was even close then there would be someone at least saying 'well maybe Spain are better', but no one is saying that. The fact is Brazil 70 weren't just better than this Spanish team, they were much better. They didn't need penalties to win their trophies (3 WC's in 12 years).

Think it says most on here are under 50 (you'd have to be a certain age in 70 to have full memory of it)

ao maybe it says that the "aged" on here are to stuck in a mind set and unable to appreciate the beauty of the modern passing game

[Zoolander]

The people who grew up watching that Brazil team are naturally going to have an affinity with it and think they're the greatest team ever.

My grandad thought Fred Perry was the greatest tennis player ever.

[Striker]

Still waiting for someone who actually watched the 1970 tournament to say Spain now are better. It's not happened yet, only people who weren't old enough are saying it.

I think that says lot, if it was even close then there would be someone at least saying 'well maybe Spain are better', but no one is saying that. The fact is Brazil 70 weren't just better than this Spanish team, they were much better. They didn't need penalties to win their trophies (3 WC's in 12 years).

Exactly - I'd be amazed if anyone who had actually seen the Brazilians of 1970 thought that Spain was the better team. In my mind there is simply no doubt, Brazil were not just better but significantly better. The Brazil team had quality for many years prior to 1970, winning in 58 and 62, and being kicked off the park permitted by disgraceful refereeing in 66. But none of those teams had the oomph of the 1970 team. Later Brazilian World Cup winning teams were rubbish by comparison especially the comparatively sh*t team of 1994. The 1982 team that went out to Italy was better than their more recent winning teams.

I attended all England's games in 1966 and can assure you that the England team of 1970 was better than their predecessors, and the best England team of my lifetime. However that team fell well short of 1970 Brazil.

Felix, Carlos Alberto, Brito, Piazza, Everaldo, Clodoaldo, Gerson, Jairzinho, Tostao, Pele, & Rivelino. What a team!!!!! The only Spanish player who would have got into that team for sure was Casillas, as Felix was no more than good. Iniesta and Xavi may well have done but a combined optimum team would contain mostly Brazilians. For example the idea that the much praised Alba could have displaced either of the Brazilian full backs is simply laughable.

That team won every game in the qualifiers and in the finals. By comparison Spain were far from certain qualification when Iker saved from some Croatian or other. Even then they needed penalties and Fabregas's was only in by inches. 1970 Brazilians needing penalties (if they had existed) again you must be joking.

Anyone who really believes that the current Spanish team is the all time best is either young, deluded or mad.

[mikeg13]

ao maybe it says that the "aged" on here are to stuck in a mind set and unable to appreciate the beauty of the modern passing game

Take that as personnel love the passing game, but its not the be all of football, watched the final and not once was there a moment that had me out of my seat, now in the game between Spain and Portugal, the Nani turn (that ref gave as a foul idiot) that did as did Italy second against Germany, could turn it round and say youth is wasted on the young, they mistake quantity for quality

[Tricky Tree]

only playing devil's advocate. I am not old enough to compare and contrast.

Does a passing move take the breath away....possibly not. Were the first 3 goals as a result of almost perfect football...yes

[mikeg13]

only playing devil's advocate. I am not old enough to compare and contrast.

Does a passing move take the breath away....possibly not. Were the first 3 goals as a result of almost perfect football...yes

Now that we are both in agreement on, no question to me Spain have raised the bar in terms of technical ability, think thats why I cant love it as the Brazil and Dutch sides, it was the seemingly spontaneous aspect they brought that Spain to me lack, put a Messi or a Renaldo in with them .....

[bigsheff]

would it be fair to say the 1970 Brazil would be the nearest you'll ever get to watching the Harlem Globetrotters on a football pitch?

[bigsheff]

Now that we are both in agreement on, no question to me Spain have raised the bar in terms of technical ability, think thats why I cant love it as the Brazil and Dutch sides, it was the seemingly spontaneous aspect they brought that Spain to me lack, put a Messi or a Renaldo in with them .....

exactly what I was getting at mike...

Just a thought... are those against Spain willing to change their opinion in future years or set in their ways, because potentially they could still get better, imagine if they have a real star striker. maybe a little more flamboyance would also tilt it in their favour.

[Zoolander]

According to Tim Vickery, South American football expert, The 1970 Brazil team aren't even the greatest Brazil side ever.

Which kind of pisses on Striker's bonfire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18669029" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[blahblah]

That Brazil took just about every chance they got, Spain dont so they may have only needed the one.

This is exactly the sort of thing that winds me up about Brazil. They should have won every game at least 10-0, then?

Glorifying the past is easily done, and Puskas et al deserve a mention, and remember that Brazil weren't exactly slow to mix it ie just kick the crap out of teams....

[Rick]

According to Tim Vickery, South American football expert, The 1970 Brazil team aren't even the greatest Brazil side ever.

Which kind of pisses on Striker's bonfire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18669029" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not really, Striker, like most other people alive today didn't get to see the 58 team. Just because they may have been even better than the 70 team doesn't mean that the 70 team wasn't better than today's Spanish.

I think a similar claim could be made for the Hungary side of the early 50's too, even though they didn't actually win the World Cup.

[foxinthebox2001]

That Brazil took just about every chance they got, Spain dont so they may have only needed the one.

This is exactly the sort of thing that winds me up about Brazil. They should have won every game at least 10-0, then?

Glorifying the past is easily done, and Puskas et al deserve a mention, and remember that Brazil weren't exactly slow to mix it ie just kick the crap out of teams....

Can you also imagine those 70's Brazilians wearing the current type of light boots, and using the latest balls that bend and swerve at the slightest touch.
Equally, I can't imagine Ronaldo being so good from free kicks wearing 1960's cloggers, and trying to dip and swerve an old leather ball that would get heavier when wet.

[mikeg13]

Not really, Striker, like most other people alive today didn't get to see the 58 team. Just because they may have been even better than the 70 team doesn't mean that the 70 team wasn't better than today's Spanish.

I think a similar claim could be made for the Hungary side of the early 50's too, even though they didn't actually win the World Cup.

One of my earliest football memories is Peles goal 3 in 58 final (think we had to wait few days to see it) first time saw a player shoot with next to no back lift, spent next few weeks trying to do same, it just rolled way they played was so different to what was being seen here, maybe a reason why they seemed so special even now. could not believe it when saw Garrincha play, amazing player so quick even in todays terms, sad that he is so often forgotten, watch if poss some of freekicks, movement he got on ball incredible, when you remember type of ball he was using.

This shows why so many love Brazil style from those days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B48AruPf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[blahblah]

That Brazil took just about every chance they got, Spain dont so they may have only needed the one.

This is exactly the sort of thing that winds me up about Brazil. They should have won every game at least 10-0, then?

Glorifying the past is easily done, and Puskas et al deserve a mention, and remember that Brazil weren't exactly slow to mix it ie just kick the crap out of teams....

Can you also imagine those 70's Brazilians wearing the current type of light boots, and using the latest balls that bend and swerve at the slightest touch.
Equally, I can't imagine Ronaldo being so good from free kicks wearing 1960's cloggers, and trying to dip and swerve an old leather ball that would get heavier when wet.

You could say the same about Puskas lot, and the Romanians and Yugoslavs of the 70's and 80's. Check out the top-spin Hagi et al got on the ball.......

Most of those swerving Brazilians are from the Mexico WC, and I am not saying they were rubbish, but they were pretty average during my formative football years, and in 1982 kicked the crap out of Maradonna and I was cheering Italy on in one of the best WC games that I can remember.

[Tricky Tree]

Not really, Striker, like most other people alive today didn't get to see the 58 team. Just because they may have been even better than the 70 team doesn't mean that the 70 team wasn't better than today's Spanish.

I think a similar claim could be made for the Hungary side of the early 50's too, even though they didn't actually win the World Cup.

One of my earliest football memories is Peles goal 3 in 58 final (think we had to wait few days to see it) first time saw a player shoot with next to no back lift, spent next few weeks trying to do same, it just rolled way they played was so different to what was being seen here, maybe a reason why they seemed so special even now. could not believe it when saw Garrincha play, amazing player so quick even in todays terms, sad that he is so often forgotten, watch if poss some of freekicks, movement he got on ball incredible, when you remember type of ball he was using.

This shows why so many love Brazil style from those days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B48AruPf ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good point on 2 counts....the fact we see football fromk all over the world ALL the time will dilute that special feel. Also, the utter football saturation that must bore even the most ardent footy fan dilutes that "special" feel

[forestfan]

There's also a distinction to be made between the best sides in terms of style, quality etc. and the greatest teams... great teams by definition win big prizes, although conversely champion teams aren't always great ones as you can fluke a title (though not 3 in a row!)

Teams like Holland in the 70s and Brazil 1982 are memorable for the style with which they played, but their trophy cabinets ended up containing the square root of bigger all so they won't be in contention for the title of greatest international team of all time. Like it or not, the ugly, negative, English Championship-standard Greece team of 2004 achieved more than they did.

If some of these teams of the past were so great, why didn't they win 3 back to back trophies? Or is this debate all about points for style?

[Zimmerman]

The argument will be that the international game was so much better then, so impossible to do that.

Never mind the fact that teams are so much more tactically aware.
How much effort must now be employed in scouting networks and research?

Would any team have done any research back in those days?
Would they of had dossiers prepared on the other team/players
and how to neutralise them?

I'm naively thinking that due to the distances, and poor travel that we wouldn't. There wasn't the tv coverage etc. that's why world cups were so exciting. Once every four years you got to see all these exotic players.


Strength of the international game;

Mexico 70:- Morrocco, El Salvador, Israel and Peru all appeared for the first time.
A tournament that only involved 16 teams.

Brazil were in a qualifying group with Venezuela, Columbia and Paraquay.


I'm not dismissing Brazil, just countering the argument about the current international game.

As it happens, I've watched that game (the final) several times. Definitely memorable, and you could say the ultimate performance.

[mikeg13]

If some of these teams of the past were so great, why didn't they win 3 back to back trophies? Or is this debate all about points for style?

Thats a very good point, must admit very guilty often of putting style over substance (probably down to following Afc to long) to me football is all about entertainment and right or wrong that counts on a personal level at least as much as silverware, understand why others see it differently.
Spain no question wonderful side, but its to mechanical for my taste, have no problem with those who see it differently, one of my all time fav players summed up my football beliefs "its all about the glory" for me its style every time.

[trampie]

1-Brazil 1970
2-Hungary 1954
3-Brazil 1958
4-W Germany 1972
5- Spain 2010
6-Holland 1974
8-Brazil 1982
7-France 1998
8-Wales 1934
9-Germany 1990
10-Uruguay 1930
11-Argentina 1986
12-France 1984
13-Yugoslavia 1992
14-Czechoslovakia 1976
15-Holland 1988
16-Italy 1968

Brazil 1970 were far more talented and better than the current Spainish team, the world cup won by Brazil in 1970 was the greatest world cup won by the greatest side scoring the greatest goal with some of the greatest players.
The current Spanish side have nobody to touch Carlos Alberto, Riverlino, Jairzinho and Pele, when Brazil won that tournement, Italy, West Germany and England amongst others had close to their best ever teams, the standard of current international football is weak, the Asians and Africans are stronger now than then but the traditional football nations are weaker now than they were.

[em9999]

They may not have the skill of a pele or the like

but there aint been many finer players than Xavi and Iniesta to ever grace the game...the Spain team is quality from 1 to 11 with perhaps only the right back slot being average...

This Spainish team could beat anyone from past or present

[trampie]

They may not have the skill of a pele or the like

but there aint been many finer players than Xavi and Iniesta to ever grace the game...the Spain team is quality from 1 to 11 with perhaps only the right back slot being average...

This Spainish team could beat anyone from past or present

Platini and Zidane were miles better individual midfield footballers than Xavi and Iniesta.