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You're Gareth Southgate

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liquidfootball2
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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

Post by liquidfootball2 »

forestfan wrote:No idea how Belgium imploded like that, it was a big chance for a trophy for them.

UEFA won’t be happy with having the Swiss and a Dutch side lacking in any star quality in the last four from a marketing point of view, even if European football’s biggest name probably will be there. They will be hoping the relegated Germans do the world champions a favour. Southgate will certainly be happy with the potential line-up though.
Roberto's lack of any defensive nous might be a factor, he's had real stars playing at the back for the team so far and its very hard to mess up, but now Kompany is getting a little older there may be some cracks appearing at the back.

He likes to play a very open style which tbf really suits the talent Belgium have at their disposal but often neglects the defence.

He was found out at Everton once the defence left behind by Moyes started to show their years and could no longer cope with the demands of an open style of play with its emphasis on the full backs chasing back and centre halves having some pace.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

Post by buu1333 »

Would watch the Dutch but at work . Want to see Frenkie de Jong and Matthijs de Ligt play 2 really hyped up young players

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

Post by forestfan »

Maybe they do have another golden generation coming through, just when it seemed the talent well had run dry or been annexed by Belgium?

Seems to happen about once a decade - 70s (Cruyff, Neeskens etc.), 80s (Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard and Koeman), 90s (Bergkamp, Kluivert, Davids, de Boer) and 00s (Robben, Sneijder, van Persie). Each time when the world was about to write them off and say they are a small country who have had their day...

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liquidfootball2
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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Holland's late, late show sees them join Portugal, Switzerland and England in the last four.

England must fancy their chances even if Portugal have home advantage which is massive.

Hopefully draw the Swiss or Dutch in the semi and also meet the Swiss or Dutch in the final too, you can always hope.

England the highest ranked team left in anyway

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Best available odds, as per Oddschecker:

England 11/5
Portugal 23/10
Netherlands 7/2
Switzerland 9/2

We're actually favourites for an international tournament :shock: That can't have happened since 1996, at least...

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liquidfootball2
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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Digressing a little but still on the subject of the Nations league...

Does Scotland winning their Section C group and thus guaranteeing a play-off against another Section C team and a possible two game but far easier path to the 2020 Euros than normal, expose a possible fault line in the format which may in time make relegation a feasible endgame strategy for those already struggling within a particular group, although tbf possibly more especially within the lower sections C and D?

To me one of those possible faultlines with the Nations League becomes apparent, would it be worth a team like Northern Ireland or the ROI going down to the 'easy' group C section as Northern Ireland and ROI especially must be fancied to do as Scotland have done and walk their group, thus possibly getting an easier World cup route with seeding and possible play-off game against 'easy' opponent guaranteed?

Similarly this can be applied across all the lower teams, its by no means all beneficial by a long way and lots of reasons against too as well as reasons for it, but some of the 'side effects' are definitely quite positive for relegated 'struggling' sides in the lower sections.

The main argument against this happening, which tbf does hold water in some respects, is any manager of a lower section team will want to win for job safety, his own personal reputation and the boost winning gives to a team, and generally especially for the vast majority of the earlier games in the group this seems just common sense.

Everyone might want a better group next time with more prestigious fixtures and a qualifying play-off for the Euros or World Cup guaranteed now this time not the next tournament which relegation might give. My perceived flaw only comes in towards the end games of a group table where winning the group is out of the question and survival in that section or relegation might be the only options, it is only that last nothing game and the manager has possibly had disappointing results for some time before it too, tactically not trying too hard would make little difference to his own prospects.

Its rather like Southgates 'tactical' group stage defeat to Belgium, while the media all cried over it, Gary Neville and others said its just what we wanted as suddenly a manageable route to the semis opened up rather than going into the impossibly tough half of the draw.

Every side will learn the rules and what benefits them, how they can use them to gain an edge and advantage and possibly qualify for the next big tournament after this upcoming one if we get relegated and win our 'easier' group. It's human nature and it will happen.

Scotland have benefitted from being in an easy section, they are two games away from qualifying for the 2020 Euros and are assured of 'easy' opponents too like Finland.

It will benefit Northern Ireland and Ireland next time, who are both ranked higher than Scotland anyway, relegation looks a good move for some.

All this might raise the question, then, whether it could be in some nations' interests to strategically tumble down a tier with a couple of experimental team selections in the hope of securing a circuitous, but more forgiving, route to a major tournament.

It wouldn't be the first time that teams have shown some street smarts around fixture scheduling.

With friendlies hitherto only garnering 40% of the Fifa ranking points that competitive games do, some nations have fathomed that they are better not playing exhibition matches at all. That way, they protect their ranking and reap the benefit when it comes to qualification draws.

Romania and Wales are among those who have been rumoured to have used the system in such a way previously but the Nations League should end the practice of 'no friendlies to protect rank' at least.


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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

Post by Zimmerman »

I thought the whole premise was to avoid teams playing the system to end up as higher seeds (and getting easier runs to tournament finals (a la Wales)?

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Perhaps the biggest deterrent and argument against this other than the obvious ones offered in my above post, is the effect on your seeding in the current upcoming major tournament draw.

Relegation could, although not necessarily, result in you being put in a lower seeded pot.

Because the allocation to each pot is the product of both your nations league performance and ranking, this will not happen to all relegated teams, for example Croatia relegated but still in pot one. However it's fair to say there is a significant likelihood of it happening to most.

So while understanding this it makes the more sense the lower the section you are in.

With the lower sections specifically C and D, the struggling 'C' section teams are fairly unlikely to qualify by normal means anyway and will very likely have an improbable task whether or not they were in Sections C or D.

Here the temptation and balance between the PROS and CONS may tip towards relegation being a useful strategy especially for their very last game of the current group series. No team is going to set out not to try or to be relegated from the outset of a group that is against common sense and ambition, they will all be trying to win games first up, it only really becomes a feasible strategy for some at the end game and specifically for struggling sides.

So the lower you go in the four section format then the greater the temptation.

Section A sides will never be tempted, Section B sides rarely although its not out of the question for a few, Section C strugglers are by far the more likely where relegation to section D hardly has any real drawbacks.


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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Zimmerman wrote:I thought the whole premise was to avoid teams playing the system to end up as higher seeds (and getting easier runs to tournament finals (a la Wales)?
I think I explained that the way they formerly played the system of 'no friendlies to protect rank' has largely been eradicated as teams are now obliged to play the Nations League group games as a minimum, previously they could play no extra games at all and just rely on mostly winning tournament qualifying games, and often easy ones to protect your rank. Friendlies or extra games also counted towards the rankings, so why play and possibly not win them? - was their strategy.

Wales and Romania were rumoured to be the main 'abusers' of this method of manipulating the ranking system but there must have been others, of course those who did play friendlies, and particularly against decent teams, possibly as more of a yardstick than easier qualifiers, took the consequent risk of not winning many and their rank suffering with a resultant too low rank.

England were prominent in this second group and did suffer in major tournament seedings because of it.

My post was about using the new tournament and possible ways of getting an edge here

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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It was quite easy to fix the 'playing no friendlies to avoid rank drop' thing just by simply weighting the maths correctly and not simply dividing by the number of games played irrespective of their weighting. Would have taken me 2 minutes on an excel spreadsheet. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that is a good reason to have a Nations League (that isn't a league any more than the Champions League is).

OK the Nations League wasn't as bad as feared (maybe because England's group stayed interesting) but we'll soon be bored of playing the same teams. I've no real idea how it all interacts with Euro/WC qualification so I guess time will tell on that one but, yep, hopefully it will be more League Cup than Anglo Italian Cup.

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liquidfootball2
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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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murf wrote:It was quite easy to fix the 'playing no friendlies to avoid rank drop' thing just by simply weighting the maths correctly and not simply dividing by the number of games played irrespective of their weighting. Would have taken me 2 minutes on an excel spreadsheet. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that is a good reason to have a Nations League (that isn't a league any more than the Champions League is).

OK the Nations League wasn't as bad as feared (maybe because England's group stayed interesting) but we'll soon be bored of playing the same teams. I've no real idea how it all interacts with Euro/WC qualification so I guess time will tell on that one but, yep, hopefully it will be more League Cup than Anglo Italian Cup.
There was indeed a weighting, although not by opponent, to friendlies with it only being worth 40% of normal EUFA or FIFA competition games, but it was still worth marks and the no friendlies policy could still be beneficial in manipulating the rankings. Even with a weighting by difficulty of opponent, some countries would still want prestigious friendlies as the only means to measure themselves outside of competition, and therefore take the consequent risk of losing them so this would not have changed, avoiding them altogether would still have been a valid tactic for some.

The Nations League is integral to the qualification group seeding for all major championships including the European qualification section of the World Cup and is played biannually before each major qualifying draw. The performance within the Nations League combined with FIFA ranking determines the pot each team goes in. (The Euros and World Cup are therefore directly affected)

They will not be playing the same teams from edition to edition of the Nations League so i'm not exactly sure where you got that from. Every group of three within each section, and there are four groups within each of four sections A to D, involve relegation of the bottom team for sections A to C, and promotion of the top team of each group for sections B to D. There will be a fresh draw of the CHANGED twelve teams within each section before every edition of the Nations League.


As for how this competition might develop after such a successful start...

The World Cup has been around since the 1930s when Uruguay won a fledgling competition in South America, with only a very limited number of teams, travel was by Liner or ship from Europe and not as easy as today, taking a relatively long time. It has since had over 80 years of development (if not adjusting for the break for WWII).

The Euros started off in the 60s? With two legged semis and a final right up to late last century, the 80s I think, the Nations League is starting in a very similar fashion.

It will undoubtedly grow in importance as all competitions do with time, even as the full implications of success and failure become more apparent and understood by the general public. It's not comparable to any major competition right now, but that certainly doesn't mean that will always be the case.

It's by nature and format a European competition not a World one but imo is absolutely certain to grow in importance, it's format may well lead to increased popularity as time goes on as it doesn't involve so many mismatches as other tournaments' interminable qualifiers do, but instead matches the relative abilities of participating teams, the promotion and relegation provide a regular and constant changing of the guard.

The highest section atm provides the four teams to contest the trophy, but in time this could be expanded to eight or more with a finals competition of its own, it may not always have strictly the present format.

As the formats and number of participants in the more established trophies increase in length and size, an optimum size threshold may well be exceeded. With an increased number of participants and lengthier finals comes a danger of a dilution of quality, less can sometimes be more in football or any entertainment business and make for a better finals. The Nations League may well one day supersede, at least in popularity, it's more illustrious and established European predecessor, who knows.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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San Marino 0 Scotland 2

"Obviously it's not the scoreline the fans would have wanted, but it's very difficult to learn anything conclusive when you're playing against one of the worst teams in the world"

Said the San Marino manager.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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England have had a hard time in Podgorica in the past with objects thrown, chanting, fighting, and here it was again with definite and clear racist abuse. Montenegro can disgracefully deny it as much as they want.

Montenegro had promised a “hellish atmosphere but for this version of hell let them be condemned.

They only beat Montenegro and their racist fans last night but England’s performance in such a febrile and viciously ugly cauldron and this sweeping victory confirmed themselves in the words of the Montenegro coach, as one of the best teams in the world.

After two ties in their qualification group for Euro 2020, they have scored 10 goals – five goals in each game, back-to-back for the first time since 1984 – and their dominant form is such, and with such a young and uninhibited team, that the rest of the world is taking note.

What is so pleasing is the rate of progress is now accelerating. England have moved on and moved up from the World Cup. Southgate is becoming increasingly bold, increasingly brave, but also increasingly assured.

England have now beaten quality in Spain and Croatia on their way to the inaugural Nations League semis and shown adaptability and class allied to blooding precocious young talent that augers well not just for the next finals, but for many to come, they really are now on the verge of achieving something.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

Post by jimmy ching »

My goodness, England are turning in to Germany. Looks like another qualification stroll.
They are winning at the same time as being entertaining.
They've just got to learn tournament playing like the Spanish eventually did.
My team just sailed out of Gibraltar with a 'hated every minute of it' 3 points. As England start to soar, Ireland are talking a nose dive.
It took us ages to get the Mick jokes out of common banter but I fear they might return.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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jimmy ching wrote: 26 Mar 2019, 07:56My team just sailed out of Gibraltar with a 'hated every minute of it' 3 points. As England start to soar, Ireland are talking a nose dive.
It took us ages to get the Mick jokes out of common banter but I fear they might return.
We wouldn't dream of taking the pi$$ out of the Irish - the Scots are a far easier and more deserving target at the moment :lol:
(Matches against Kazakhstan and San Marino and they have a negative goal difference :lol: )

All a bit mad at the moment, Malta and Luxemburg topped their groups after the first set of matches :shock:

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Well, that’s a wake-up call... first qualifying defeat in 10 years and a day :shock: Mind you, we haven’t won in Prague since 1908, when the hosts played as Bohemia... still, the Czechs these days are a team we should be putting away with ease and the cracks that showed in the crazy game with Kosovo have now opened wider.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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How did Podolski and Berger do?

Southgate is inept beyond his S&M waistcoats and "young boys" thing... Seriously though, how many would want him "managing" their club?

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Does a great club manager necessarily cut it at international level though? We’ve tried Sven and Capello, who were globally renowned and paid a fortune to deliver mediocrity.

Chris Coleman is an awful club manager but was the right man at the right time with Wales. Bobby Martinez somehow landed the best national team gig going... it’s a strange parallel universe, really.

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Maybe but Alf and Bobby were our best 2.

Cough would have been good and was your best.

Should I toss on SAF as Scotland's best?

Any Eire bods wanting to suggest Fick Mick can fook off 😂

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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blahblah wrote: 11 Oct 2019, 21:56 Maybe but Alf and Bobby were our best 2.

Cough would have been good and was your best.

Should I toss on SAF as Scotland's best?

Any Eire bods wanting to suggest Fick Mick can fook off 😂
Big Jack, obviously... “drink a pint of Guinness and you’re qualified to play for us”... and Billy Bingham was it for the North when they turned over Spain in their own backyard?

Fergie was only ever caretaker for Scotland wasn’t he?

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Re: You're Gareth Southgate

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Anyway, a year later and while it wasn’t a classic, we’ve beaten the world number 1... a few holes to fill but other positions where we’re spoilt for choice.

Stat of the day, the last time a penalty was scored by each side in an England international at Wembley, Alf Ramsey was the England scorer. So, Marcus Rashford to manage England to win the 2046 World Cup. You heard it here first...

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