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Understanding Car Insurance.

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Beerfuelledman
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Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

I am almost 43. I currently drive a Skoda Octavia and I recently renewed my car insurance. I have two specific issues I was hoping that someone in the industry might be able to shed some light on.

1 - Changing the wheels.
My Skoda had 15" alloys on it. Pretty unremarkable considering the VRS variants are running around on 18" or 19" wheels and the arches are big enough with no issues. I acquired a nice set of 18" rims with a decent amount of tyre on them (i.e. between rim & tread) so the ride wasn't bumpy. I thought they set the car off quite nicely.

However, the insurance company begged to differ. On the phone off the phone, how much did I pay, what size were they, What size were the originals, 120 questions later (I felt like I was being grilled like I was applying to work with children) they declared - NO. Absolutely no way would they insure me with these wheels. Without elongating the story I left it to renewal time and tried again thinking it was an oddity my my specific insurer/underwriter. But no, same story, NO insurance. Not increased premium mind - simply NO - WE WILL NOT INSURE YOU WITH BIGGER WHEELS. I mean, what is going on? Does my insurance company not believe I have the wherewithall to change a wheel, that the nuts will be loose and Ill be hurtling along at 70mph, lose the wheel and cause a pile up? Has the new wheels without my knowledge made the car so desirable its been given the car the codename "Eleanor" and made it ripe for 21st Century car thief extrordinaire types?

This is a car currently being sold with 18" wheels on it - I'm not trying to fit 25" wheels under tiny arches!! I dont get it. :?

2 - Renewals.
Speaking of renewals - my insurance was circa £340 (I cant remember exactly) so I was somewhat surprised to see the renewal was £700. £700!!! :lol: I quite easily got it insured for £260 (having put the 15" wheels back on of course) so what was my insurance company playing at? Surely dabbing it up from £340 to £400 might have been a way to try and craftily collect a few extra quid had I been lazy enough (and many are) to not shop around but £700 :shock: What were they thinking?? When I called to apprise them I wouldn't be renewing with them this year the agent was a bit surprised to hear I had already taken insurance with someone else.

If they could do it for cheaper - why didn't they? And how can there be such a disparity (£700 Vs £260) for a 43yr old in a Skoda :?

Comments of explanation from those in the insurance industry welcome.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Mystery »

Beerfuelledman wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 18:422 - Renewals. If they could do it for cheaper - why didn't they?
Because they'd rather not do so if they could get away with it, as they do with the majority who are too lazy to shop around. Speaking from past experience in financial services sales.

Can't help you with question 1. Sounds barmy!

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by robot »

Because out of every 10 people 8 will be sensible people like you and 2 will renew at £700, making it worth them trying to take the mickey.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by murf »

Quite simply a large proportion of people who would 'pimp' their wheels are the sort of people who drive like... you wouldn't want to insure them.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

murf wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 20:48 Quite simply a large proportion of people who would 'pimp' their wheels are the sort of people who drive like... you wouldn't want to insure them.
1 - I'm sure there must be evidence to suggest people who take pride in the appearance of their vehicle might be less likely to drive recklessly.
2- I'm further certain that a 43yr old Skoda driver is unlikely to fit into that category of 'uninsurables'.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by blahblah »

I'm with murf and the "pimping". Reality is irrelevant: they told you to foook off and you did....

I also doubt that your car is insured if you claim one set of wheels, and put on a different set.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

what are you talking about? Can you explain 'pimping' to me then as it relates to a 43yr old changing the wheels on his Skoda please?

If you'd bothered to read the thread you would note that AT NO TIME did I "claim one set of wheels and put on a different set".

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by blahblah »

No, I am just saying that you may have been uninsured if you changed them without telling the Insurance lot.

I don't see what difference they would think age would mean and they would probably think that the car is probably more robbable.

And I do not think "educationally subnormal" is appropriate for someone who is trying to explain something that you do not understand.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Zimmerman »

The whole renewal charade gets on my tits.
I will gladly leave current insurers even if they agree to beat my new quote.... they had a shot, they missed.

In terms of the wheels thing;
I assume it is as Murf says. The mere fact you are adding new wheels must trigger some sort of warning flag... whether you are 43 or not and whether or not its a Skoda.

Might just be tidying it up aesthetically for you... but indiscriminately, over the phone, you 'could' have added an Escort Costworth rear spoiler a neon light underneath and go down to your local Apollo car park to practice wheels spins late at night. They make decisions based on broad information.
Its no different to every single 18 yo being humped on the price of his insurance, regardless of his driving style or safety.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

blahblah wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 21:31 No, I am just saying that you may have been uninsured if you changed them without telling the Insurance lot.

I don't see what difference they would think age would mean and they would probably think that the car is probably more robbable.

And I do not think "educationally subnormal" is appropriate for someone who is trying to explain something that you do not understand.
It is appropriate for the level of "explanation" you were providing. Shall we take "Robbable" as an example? I'm happy to dilate on how Sec 8 of the Theft act requires the use or threat of the use of force to commit "robbery" which bears no relevance on how an object may be deemed more desirable to the thief.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

Zimmerman wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 21:31 In terms of the wheels thing;
I assume it is as Murf says. The mere fact you are adding new wheels must trigger some sort of warning flag... whether you are 43 or not and whether or not its a Skoda.

Might just be tidying it up aesthetically for you... but indiscriminately, over the phone, you 'could' have added an Escort Costworth rear spoiler a neon light underneath and go down to your local Apollo car park to practice wheels spins late at night. They make decisions based on broad information.
Its no different to every single 18 yo being humped on the price of his insurance, regardless of his driving style or safety.
It is a BIT different. I have no history of trouble with law enforcement at my local "Apollo Car park". And its new wheels I'm declaring, not an Escort Cosworth spoiler. I don't think an insurance company would be allowed to assume I "probably" added a big Cosworth spoiler to go with the new wheels I'm actually declaring.

Over 50's life assurance policy's seem to be able to understand that older people don't do the same thing as 18yr olds; I'm sure car insurance companies are capable of the same intelligence.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by murf »

The 43 v 18 thing is built into the base price

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

murf wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 22:03 The 43 v 18 thing is built into the base price
Tremendous. So if you'd kindly explain how that relates to not being able to change the wheels on the car - then how the renewal jumps to £700 that'd be great thanks.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by murf »

The jump for the wheels is for the 'pimping' on its own and, presumably, their simplistic calcs don't take age into account for that part and just do it as a lump sum irrespective of any other factors.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

There was no "jump for the wheels" !!!! They flat out refused to offer any insurance. Did you read the first post before wading in?

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by murf »

Sorry, misread it as a jump for the wheels.
Same logic to start with though. They basically don't want to insure a pimped car so either say no or quote a stupid price.

Renewal hikes can be stupid and they usually will knock a lump off when you query it but ours only went up about a tenner this year (and I'd shopped around a lot last year) so I just paid it.

Just shop around. The price comparison sites are popular for a reason.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Striker »

Many insurance quotations, in all areas of insurance are based on a tick boxes exercise, and anything which doesn't fit a template can be problematic. Many years ago when we purchased the neighbouring house and knocked a hole in the wall to make a single residence we had nonsensical objections to overcome, with our existing insurer refusing to provide cover. Inter aIia, they didn't like two front doors!

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Ashers »

From my experience of working in car insurance, this is down to the following:

1) The insurer uses a ratings system which has certain criteria set in the back ground. Some of these ratings will be based on modifications which can automatically decline cases. Other rating questions will just lead to decreases (improved safety features) and others increases (modifications, points, etc).

2) Generally, rating questions that automatically decline are in relation to that insurer's experience, claims history and overall risk profile. For example: They have had lots of claims from X or they have have seen more claims from cars where wheels have been modified.

3) With regards to the increase in premium, this is down to a few factors such as increases in IPT this year, that insurer's claims payout in the year, profits and as Robot said a % of people don't change at renewal.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by robot »

One thing I was told when renewing once was to massively underestimate milage as it has a big impact when i asked what if I have an accident and have done more mileage than stated.

The answer was you would just have to make the difference of what the premium should have been within the claim.
The actual claim would go through as normal.
Is this correct ashers as can save a lot of money in the non claim years.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by bluenosey »

An ex work colleague once had an accident that was traced to putting the wrong type of tyre on his car. The mechanic was fired at the garage. Now I don't know all the technicalities, but if a wrong tyre can cause an accident, maybe the thinking goes for wheel size as well ? At the end of the day, car insurance is a pain, although it's one of the few great things about getting older in that your premium decreases with age.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Ashers »

robot wrote: 16 Aug 2017, 08:17 One thing I was told when renewing once was to massively underestimate milage as it has a big impact when i asked what if I have an accident and have done more mileage than stated.

The answer was you would just have to make the difference of what the premium should have been within the claim.
The actual claim would go through as normal.
Is this correct ashers as can save a lot of money in the non claim years.
Yes and No.

Underestimating mileage is a known trick that people use, so insurance companies tend to increase premiums for people that state they only do low mileage, but are in full time employment.

Also fraudsters also put low mileage on as they are looking for a small premium before they go and make a claim for a car shunt and then personal injuries for everyone in the car (plus a load more than were never there).

What normally happens at the point of claim, is that insurance companies check your last mileage on the MOT database and compare that to the car and then take the difference away from a claim.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

Ashers wrote: 16 Aug 2017, 07:38 From my experience of working in car insurance, this is down to the following:

1) The insurer uses a ratings system which has certain criteria set in the back ground. Some of these ratings will be based on modifications which can automatically decline cases. Other rating questions will just lead to decreases (improved safety features) and others increases (modifications, points, etc).

2) Generally, rating questions that automatically decline are in relation to that insurer's experience, claims history and overall risk profile. For example: They have had lots of claims from X or they have have seen more claims from cars where wheels have been modified.

3) With regards to the increase in premium, this is down to a few factors such as increases in IPT this year, that insurer's claims payout in the year, profits and as Robot said a % of people don't change at renewal.
Thanks - good to get an insight from someone with a bit of insight into the industry.

1) I get that there is likely to be a check box rating system (I purchased a Thatcham 3 stoplock for my daughter in the hope i would reduce her premium) for the lower grade sales people dealing with the phone calls (I dont mean this to sound offensive - my sales person had to put me on hold 4 times while she "checked" with someone else various questions) and I get that nice wheels make a car look better and therefore potentially more stealable - so I expected a token premium increase; not to be flat out refused. I would understand if there was a massive safety issue caused by changing wheels - but there isnt.

2) Perhaps this is moving towards an answer. That insurers experience and claims history. I'm going to go into the Correlation Vs Causation debate if there are any scientists reading. Could it be that the majority of accidents (and therefore claims) are had by young male drivers, and a large portion of young male drivers have also changed their wheels? Therefore the changing of wheels will be very highly correlated with the number of claims - even though wheels do not cause claims?

3) I would understand if my insurers premium went up due to "IPT" "Payouts" "profits" etc - but I dont understand how then it comes magically back down when I announce I will be moving to a different insurer. Its borderline fraudulent.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Beerfuelledman »

Im going to go one further and suggest that on the basis of my experience of being flat out refused insurance for changing a cars wheels - how many cars do you see driving around with different wheels on that by extension MUST NOT be covered by their policy?? :shock:

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Ashers »

Beerfuelledman wrote: 16 Aug 2017, 10:48
1) I get that there is likely to be a check box rating system (I purchased a Thatcham 3 stoplock for my daughter in the hope i would reduce her premium) for the lower grade sales people dealing with the phone calls (I dont mean this to sound offensive - my sales person had to put me on hold 4 times while she "checked" with someone else various questions) and I get that nice wheels make a car look better and therefore potentially more stealable - so I expected a token premium increase; not to be flat out refused. I would understand if there was a massive safety issue caused by changing wheels - but there isnt.

2) Perhaps this is moving towards an answer. That insurers experience and claims history. I'm going to go into the Correlation Vs Causation debate if there are any scientists reading. Could it be that the majority of accidents (and therefore claims) are had by young male drivers, and a large portion of young male drivers have also changed their wheels? Therefore the changing of wheels will be very highly correlated with the number of claims - even though wheels do not cause claims?

3) I would understand if my insurers premium went up due to "IPT" "Payouts" "profits" etc - but I dont understand how then it comes magically back down when I announce I will be moving to a different insurer. Its borderline fraudulent.
1) Not really offensive, you will find that the people answering the phones are school leavers, part-timers and people that move from role to role. There will be a few long timers, but the turnover in those departments is huge and knowledge is lost. Most of the time they have to refer to someone who is more experienced, but that person has also been there less than 2 years. Unlike mortgages, you don't need a qualification to sell insurance. Some systems have a automatic declined if the premium is beyond a certain amount.

2) You have hit it on the head

3) That was always the price, they just don't offer it unless you ask.

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Re: Understanding Car Insurance.

Post by Ashers »

So I've had my car insurance through day from Elephant.

Was paying £380 per year and my renewal is £595 per year.

Compare The Market :arrow: Lowest premium with Aviva £240. (same excess and cover amounts) (lowest is not always best)

I've just called Elephant to see what they can do and they have given me the blurb about IPT tax and a non fault claim causing the rise (someone drove into the car when it was parked on the drive). Told them that this is a ridiculous price and that I have had lower elsewhere.

New price is now £535 from Elephant after they discount 10%

Advised them that I'm leaving after four years and the price now reduces to £480.

Still not good enough, but shows you have much room for manoeuvre they have.

Normally advisors have a set amount that they can reduce insurance by if someone calls (5%-20%) and they like to pretend that they have to refer this to their manager. They don't, they just do it that way as most people fall for this and it looks like they are trying. The more they reduce it, the more they have to sell in that day to hit their target.

The complaints team can then normally reduce the premium further, but on this occasion there was no points as there was a difference of £240 and they had their chance.

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