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Hamlet
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Post by Hamlet »

A complicated subject - and clearly something that's difficult to compress into a quick reply.

However, I think that Flyman's separation of historical & subjective understandings captures an important point.

What a person takes from the picture is inherently subjective, and is therefore not disproven in any way by any further information about the artist's intent. Indeed, what I (or you, or anyone else) take from the painting is not dependent on the artist's intention, even if we knew it. Art is surely a way of conveying expressions or feelings which can't be conveyed another way; therefore, these 'feelings' cannot, by their very nature, be captured in quotes, or diary entries.

That said, I don't think that that is any reason not to discuss possible historical contextualisation, or ask 'irrelevant questions'. By posting the (supposed) diary entry, I was not (apologies if it was seen that way) trying to suggest that Flyman's interpretation was wrong; I thought, however, that the information might contribute to his subjective understanding. It doesn't necessarily have to; however, should we not be allowed to have access to information in formulating our opinion?

You seem to suggest that ideally we should view art without historical knowledge, or pre-conceived ideas, etc. However, clearly thought does not exist in a vacuum.

Finally, Billy: "these confuse our response to it"?! Considering the fluid/malleable nature of our ideas and responses, is it not a positive thing to be continually engaged in a re-definition of our interpretations?

An interesting debate, and I hope this post is taken in the spirit it is intended, and doesn't dramatically mischaracterise anyone's argument!

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Flyman
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Post by Flyman »

"To see, or not to see?
That is the question!"

:lol:



Hamlet: You say "(supposed) diary entry" but earlier you wrote:
This is a quote from Munch's diary, apparently recalling the scene (from a book on Munch):
Was there, perhaps, a wee comma missing after the word 'apparently'?

That is, were you saying that the quote 'appears', or is alleged, to be from Munch's diary or that is appears to recalling the scene that day? Two very different meanings, I'm sure you'll agree!
(Isn't English an extra-ordinarily subtle language! 8-) )

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Billy Whiz
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Post by Billy Whiz »

Flyman and Hamlet – I’m not fundamentally disagreeing with either of you, I’m just developing my theme :)

Too often in art appreciation, and even more so in literary criticism, people (especially students) are desperate to seek the “answers” to difficult pieces of work. I’ve nothing against discussion of art or literature by you, me or by critics (far from it), but the artist/writer has a unique responsibility not to muddy the waters by trying to interpret his work for us. I agree that’s not what Munch is doing (it’s interesting that this is a diary entry, not an exhibition note. Did Munch intend it to be read by the public?), but there is a danger that some people might take Munch’s comments as a definitive “key” to his painting, and we should bear in mind that it’s nothing of the sort. After all, he called his work “The Scream”, which is a very open-ended title. He didn’t call it “How I felt about my relationship with nature one day when out walking with friends.” As long as the viewer is aware of the difference, no harm is done.

PS Glad you like The Lady of Shallot, flyman. That jpg came from a site called epsilones.com, which has some fascinating pictures and images in its galleries. Browse the site through this link (highly recommended): http://www.epsilones.com/sector17/pagin ... ria-2.html

And here’s another picture from it:

Image

It's by the French painter Balthus (actually he was a Polish count, but he lived and worked in France) and it's called The Golden Days
Last edited by Billy Whiz on 15 Dec 2006, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Flyman
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Post by Flyman »

Billy, Hamlet, loving your work, guys!
And Balthus's, too. :wink:

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Post by M-boy »

I saw this when trawling another forum, and thought it was quite inventive (although probably not art):

Image

The 'caption' reads 'Inter fan becomes crazy'.

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Post by Hamlet »

Flyman wrote:"To see, or not to see?
That is the question!"

:lol:



Hamlet: You say "(supposed) diary entry" but earlier you wrote:
This is a quote from Munch's diary, apparently recalling the scene (from a book on Munch):
Was there, perhaps, a wee comma missing after the word 'apparently'?

That is, were you saying that the quote 'appears', or is alleged, to be from Munch's diary or that is appears to recalling the scene that day? Two very different meanings, I'm sure you'll agree!
(Isn't English an extra-ordinarily subtle language! 8-) )
Flyman - just to quickly clarify: there is no comma missing. Indeed, it's stated in the book that it is a diary entry recalling the scene. I added the 'apparently', and later, the 'supposed', because I'm wary of claiming it as a historical fact - because I haven't read the actual diary or anything.

Anyway: enough for now! Billy, I take your point.

"What should such fellows as I do crawling between heaven and earth? We are arrant knaves all. Believe none of us."

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Billy Whiz
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Post by Billy Whiz »

Hamlet wrote:"What should such fellows as I do crawling between heaven and earth? We are arrant knaves all. Believe none of us."
An appropriate quote from someone with your monicker :wink:

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Post by Flyman »

Billy Whiz wrote:
Hamlet wrote:"What should such fellows as I do crawling between heaven and earth? We are arrant knaves all. Believe none of us."
An appropriate quote from someone with your monicker :wink:
This Hamlet chap seems to be a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy, me thinks!

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Flyman
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Post by Flyman »

I've long loved El Greco's work (1541-1614).

I still find it hard to believe he was (principally) a C16th artist.

Toledo. (1584)

Image

Saint Jerome as Cardinal, ca. 1610–14

Image

The Vision of Saint John,
1608–14

Image

None of the above would seem that out of place in an early C20th exhibition.

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Post by viddleodge »

M-boy wrote:I saw this when trawling another forum, and thought it was quite inventive (although probably not art):

Image

The 'caption' reads 'Inter fan becomes crazy'.
found this the other day...

Image

bit frightening.




then there's a nice magritte like composite ...

Image

not sure if the man himself did it.
i tend to fancy not.

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Post by Wyld »

One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.

It was painted shortly after the war (probably WWII, or though possibly WWI). A can't remember the artists name although I do remember he was German. That's not much to go on is it?

Anyway, the painting is large, let's say 3-4m wide and 2-3m high. It is a landscape. In the background there is a city. Possibly Dresden, Berlin or Frankfurt. The buildings are burnt-out, or are badly bomb damaged. Some are still burning I think. There is smoke. The foreground is a field. There are blackened areas in the field, and some small splashes, blood-red. Up close you see the artist has stuck small clumps of hay to the picture to show the crops in the field.

If anyone has seen this picture I think you will know the one I mean. You can't walk past it. It just howls of despair, of the futility of war, of the destruction it wreaks, of the emptiness it leaves behind.

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Post by fancy dan »

Love the El Greco, flyman - you're quite right, it has a very contemporary feel to it.

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Post by M-boy »

Wyld wrote:One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.
Don't think it's in Gothenburg Wyld. Can't say for certain (obviously) but me and M-girl were in the Konstmuseum and didn't see it.

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Billy Whiz
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Post by Billy Whiz »

Wyld wrote:One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.

It was painted shortly after the war (probably WWII, or though possibly WWI). A can't remember the artists name although I do remember he was German. That's not much to go on is it?

Anyway, the painting is large, let's say 3-4m wide and 2-3m high. It is a landscape. In the background there is a city. Possibly Dresden, Berlin or Frankfurt. The buildings are burnt-out, or are badly bomb damaged. Some are still burning I think. There is smoke. The foreground is a field. There are blackened areas in the field, and some small splashes, blood-red. Up close you see the artist has stuck small clumps of hay to the picture to show the crops in the field.

If anyone has seen this picture I think you will know the one I mean. You can't walk past it. It just howls of despair, of the futility of war, of the destruction it wreaks, of the emptiness it leaves behind.
Is it this? The "clumps of hay stuck to the picture" makes me feel it is. It's by the German painter Anselm Kiefer.


Image

Hamlet
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Post by Hamlet »

tom4nash wrote:Well, here's another from Andrew, Christina's World, from 1949 that's of the same ilk:

Image
I saw this picture up close the other day and it's brilliant. The detail is absolutely incredible - literally made me stand staring in amazement.

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Post by sligorover »

Image

Spotted this gilbert & george pic in the news recently. Exhibition on in the tate at the moment. Looks mental !

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Post by Strapping Young Lad »

Image
I have lurked around FISO for longer than i care to remember,but i can hold back no longer.I loved viewing this thread and was sorry when it petered out.Hope this rekindles some intrest.

American Gothic by Grant Wood 1930

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Billy Whiz
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Post by Billy Whiz »

Just been to the Millais exhibition at Tate Britain. Wow! Here's three of my favourites, although I could have posted dozens:

Image

Image

Image

These reproductions don't being to do justice to the real thing though - you really have to see them to appreciate them. The exhibition's open until January.

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Rafa 2007
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Post by Rafa 2007 »

I don't think I've ever had a single favourite piece of art, however I'd say I tend to rate Dutch painters of the 15th and 16th century the most. Bosch, Bruegel, van Eyck and so on.

I also like Pre-Raphaelites and 20th century Spanish stuff. I used to be a big Caspar David Friedrich fan when I was younger.

But this was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the topic of this thread:

Image

Albrecht Altdorfer - "The Battle of Issus"

I saw it for the first time when I was about 14 and it made an enormous impact on me. Maybe it's this fancy thing in the top that adds extra quality to the painting? Anyway whenever I look at the picture I got a feeling it is something I saw once. A forgotten dream or a retrospective memory of a former incarnation? Probably the former but maybe the latter...

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Post by Yer Old Da »

Here's my favourite work of art:

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Billy Whiz
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Post by Billy Whiz »

Face it Yoda, you're not far enough along the evolutionary scale to appreciate art :wink:

For those of you who are, here's some more Millais:

Image

Image
Image

Image

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Post by murf »

Billy Whiz wrote:Image
I know this is supposed to be a cultural thread but you have to wonder exactly what those lads are staring at.....

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Post by Jaybrent Allstars1 »

Image

Jackson Pollock.One ( number 31 , 1950 )
New York Museum of Modern Art September 2007

Fantastic :lol:

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Post by Latic »

Tyzack - 'Alesso B'

Image

The image here does it no justice. When I first saw it years ago in Liverpool I just liked the look of it really! Squint your eyes and lines start to disappear! :? :)











Then there's this classic 'Tennis Girl': :lol:

Image

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Post by viddleodge »

Glasgowlatic wrote:Then there's this classic 'Tennis Girl': :lol:

Image
or this classic tennis girl. :wink:

Image

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Post by Billy Whiz »

The Barbarians have invaded my art thread :shock: :(

There are plenty of other threads where you can post low-rent fluff.

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Post by viddleodge »

sorry billy.
i actually came to arts forum to post a couple of amusing articles featuring well, different artists.
can't find an 'arts news' type thread so will just start a separate one.

but since i'm here :)
i'll share one of my favs i saw at the cleveland art museum a few years ago...

Image

gray and gold by john rogers cox

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Re: Post your favourite work of art here

Post by 7lb claimer »

I should think we have a few new members who haven't see this topic.

My current favourite is August Macke's Leute am blauen see.

http://en.easyart.com/art-prints/august ... 62864.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An honourable mention for Monet's Regatta at Argenteuil and Picasso's Don Quixote.

I'm trying to remember the artist who painted hundreds of interesting small human
figures in one picture - don't think it was Lowry - any ideas?

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Re: Post your favourite work of art here

Post by fancy dan »

Nice bump, Mr claimer. Was it Bruegel?

It may be dismissed as not high art by some on here (although I'm a big believer that there is no high art and low art, only good and bad), but I just can't get enough of David B's comic art at the moment. Anyone with an interest in any kind of literature should check out his magnum opus, Epileptic. Here's a few samples:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Post your favourite work of art here

Post by DrBunker »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 633386.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I heard some art critic trying to explain to the R4 interviewer that although these look like a child could have produced them they are actually very good! :lol:

They certainly don't do it for me - I like to be able to enjoy art for arts sake without having to research or 'understand' what the artist was trying to say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an uncouth pleb but I'm just as likely to enjoy a Jack Vettriano or a Dali as I am the other stuff on here :)

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