Post your favourite work of art here
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- Treebeard
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A complicated subject - and clearly something that's difficult to compress into a quick reply.
However, I think that Flyman's separation of historical & subjective understandings captures an important point.
What a person takes from the picture is inherently subjective, and is therefore not disproven in any way by any further information about the artist's intent. Indeed, what I (or you, or anyone else) take from the painting is not dependent on the artist's intention, even if we knew it. Art is surely a way of conveying expressions or feelings which can't be conveyed another way; therefore, these 'feelings' cannot, by their very nature, be captured in quotes, or diary entries.
That said, I don't think that that is any reason not to discuss possible historical contextualisation, or ask 'irrelevant questions'. By posting the (supposed) diary entry, I was not (apologies if it was seen that way) trying to suggest that Flyman's interpretation was wrong; I thought, however, that the information might contribute to his subjective understanding. It doesn't necessarily have to; however, should we not be allowed to have access to information in formulating our opinion?
You seem to suggest that ideally we should view art without historical knowledge, or pre-conceived ideas, etc. However, clearly thought does not exist in a vacuum.
Finally, Billy: "these confuse our response to it"?! Considering the fluid/malleable nature of our ideas and responses, is it not a positive thing to be continually engaged in a re-definition of our interpretations?
An interesting debate, and I hope this post is taken in the spirit it is intended, and doesn't dramatically mischaracterise anyone's argument!
However, I think that Flyman's separation of historical & subjective understandings captures an important point.
What a person takes from the picture is inherently subjective, and is therefore not disproven in any way by any further information about the artist's intent. Indeed, what I (or you, or anyone else) take from the painting is not dependent on the artist's intention, even if we knew it. Art is surely a way of conveying expressions or feelings which can't be conveyed another way; therefore, these 'feelings' cannot, by their very nature, be captured in quotes, or diary entries.
That said, I don't think that that is any reason not to discuss possible historical contextualisation, or ask 'irrelevant questions'. By posting the (supposed) diary entry, I was not (apologies if it was seen that way) trying to suggest that Flyman's interpretation was wrong; I thought, however, that the information might contribute to his subjective understanding. It doesn't necessarily have to; however, should we not be allowed to have access to information in formulating our opinion?
You seem to suggest that ideally we should view art without historical knowledge, or pre-conceived ideas, etc. However, clearly thought does not exist in a vacuum.
Finally, Billy: "these confuse our response to it"?! Considering the fluid/malleable nature of our ideas and responses, is it not a positive thing to be continually engaged in a re-definition of our interpretations?
An interesting debate, and I hope this post is taken in the spirit it is intended, and doesn't dramatically mischaracterise anyone's argument!
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"To see, or not to see?
That is the question!"
Hamlet: You say "(supposed) diary entry" but earlier you wrote:
That is, were you saying that the quote 'appears', or is alleged, to be from Munch's diary or that is appears to recalling the scene that day? Two very different meanings, I'm sure you'll agree!
(Isn't English an extra-ordinarily subtle language! )
That is the question!"
Hamlet: You say "(supposed) diary entry" but earlier you wrote:
Was there, perhaps, a wee comma missing after the word 'apparently'?This is a quote from Munch's diary, apparently recalling the scene (from a book on Munch):
That is, were you saying that the quote 'appears', or is alleged, to be from Munch's diary or that is appears to recalling the scene that day? Two very different meanings, I'm sure you'll agree!
(Isn't English an extra-ordinarily subtle language! )
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Flyman and Hamlet – I’m not fundamentally disagreeing with either of you, I’m just developing my theme
Too often in art appreciation, and even more so in literary criticism, people (especially students) are desperate to seek the “answers” to difficult pieces of work. I’ve nothing against discussion of art or literature by you, me or by critics (far from it), but the artist/writer has a unique responsibility not to muddy the waters by trying to interpret his work for us. I agree that’s not what Munch is doing (it’s interesting that this is a diary entry, not an exhibition note. Did Munch intend it to be read by the public?), but there is a danger that some people might take Munch’s comments as a definitive “key” to his painting, and we should bear in mind that it’s nothing of the sort. After all, he called his work “The Scream”, which is a very open-ended title. He didn’t call it “How I felt about my relationship with nature one day when out walking with friends.” As long as the viewer is aware of the difference, no harm is done.
PS Glad you like The Lady of Shallot, flyman. That jpg came from a site called epsilones.com, which has some fascinating pictures and images in its galleries. Browse the site through this link (highly recommended): http://www.epsilones.com/sector17/pagin ... ria-2.html
And here’s another picture from it:
It's by the French painter Balthus (actually he was a Polish count, but he lived and worked in France) and it's called The Golden Days
Too often in art appreciation, and even more so in literary criticism, people (especially students) are desperate to seek the “answers” to difficult pieces of work. I’ve nothing against discussion of art or literature by you, me or by critics (far from it), but the artist/writer has a unique responsibility not to muddy the waters by trying to interpret his work for us. I agree that’s not what Munch is doing (it’s interesting that this is a diary entry, not an exhibition note. Did Munch intend it to be read by the public?), but there is a danger that some people might take Munch’s comments as a definitive “key” to his painting, and we should bear in mind that it’s nothing of the sort. After all, he called his work “The Scream”, which is a very open-ended title. He didn’t call it “How I felt about my relationship with nature one day when out walking with friends.” As long as the viewer is aware of the difference, no harm is done.
PS Glad you like The Lady of Shallot, flyman. That jpg came from a site called epsilones.com, which has some fascinating pictures and images in its galleries. Browse the site through this link (highly recommended): http://www.epsilones.com/sector17/pagin ... ria-2.html
And here’s another picture from it:
It's by the French painter Balthus (actually he was a Polish count, but he lived and worked in France) and it's called The Golden Days
Last edited by Billy Whiz on 15 Dec 2006, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
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- Treebeard
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Flyman - just to quickly clarify: there is no comma missing. Indeed, it's stated in the book that it is a diary entry recalling the scene. I added the 'apparently', and later, the 'supposed', because I'm wary of claiming it as a historical fact - because I haven't read the actual diary or anything.Flyman wrote:"To see, or not to see?
That is the question!"
:lol:
Hamlet: You say "(supposed) diary entry" but earlier you wrote:Was there, perhaps, a wee comma missing after the word 'apparently'?This is a quote from Munch's diary, apparently recalling the scene (from a book on Munch):
That is, were you saying that the quote 'appears', or is alleged, to be from Munch's diary or that is appears to recalling the scene that day? Two very different meanings, I'm sure you'll agree!
(Isn't English an extra-ordinarily subtle language! 8-) )
Anyway: enough for now! Billy, I take your point.
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One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.
It was painted shortly after the war (probably WWII, or though possibly WWI). A can't remember the artists name although I do remember he was German. That's not much to go on is it?
Anyway, the painting is large, let's say 3-4m wide and 2-3m high. It is a landscape. In the background there is a city. Possibly Dresden, Berlin or Frankfurt. The buildings are burnt-out, or are badly bomb damaged. Some are still burning I think. There is smoke. The foreground is a field. There are blackened areas in the field, and some small splashes, blood-red. Up close you see the artist has stuck small clumps of hay to the picture to show the crops in the field.
If anyone has seen this picture I think you will know the one I mean. You can't walk past it. It just howls of despair, of the futility of war, of the destruction it wreaks, of the emptiness it leaves behind.
It was painted shortly after the war (probably WWII, or though possibly WWI). A can't remember the artists name although I do remember he was German. That's not much to go on is it?
Anyway, the painting is large, let's say 3-4m wide and 2-3m high. It is a landscape. In the background there is a city. Possibly Dresden, Berlin or Frankfurt. The buildings are burnt-out, or are badly bomb damaged. Some are still burning I think. There is smoke. The foreground is a field. There are blackened areas in the field, and some small splashes, blood-red. Up close you see the artist has stuck small clumps of hay to the picture to show the crops in the field.
If anyone has seen this picture I think you will know the one I mean. You can't walk past it. It just howls of despair, of the futility of war, of the destruction it wreaks, of the emptiness it leaves behind.
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Don't think it's in Gothenburg Wyld. Can't say for certain (obviously) but me and M-girl were in the Konstmuseum and didn't see it.Wyld wrote:One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.
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Is it this? The "clumps of hay stuck to the picture" makes me feel it is. It's by the German painter Anselm Kiefer.Wyld wrote:One of my favourite paintings is either in Copenhagen, Gothenberg, Melbourne or Paris. I can't truly remember which -- I just know I saw it in a gallery in one of those cities about ten years ago.
It was painted shortly after the war (probably WWII, or though possibly WWI). A can't remember the artists name although I do remember he was German. That's not much to go on is it?
Anyway, the painting is large, let's say 3-4m wide and 2-3m high. It is a landscape. In the background there is a city. Possibly Dresden, Berlin or Frankfurt. The buildings are burnt-out, or are badly bomb damaged. Some are still burning I think. There is smoke. The foreground is a field. There are blackened areas in the field, and some small splashes, blood-red. Up close you see the artist has stuck small clumps of hay to the picture to show the crops in the field.
If anyone has seen this picture I think you will know the one I mean. You can't walk past it. It just howls of despair, of the futility of war, of the destruction it wreaks, of the emptiness it leaves behind.
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I don't think I've ever had a single favourite piece of art, however I'd say I tend to rate Dutch painters of the 15th and 16th century the most. Bosch, Bruegel, van Eyck and so on.
I also like Pre-Raphaelites and 20th century Spanish stuff. I used to be a big Caspar David Friedrich fan when I was younger.
But this was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the topic of this thread:
Albrecht Altdorfer - "The Battle of Issus"
I saw it for the first time when I was about 14 and it made an enormous impact on me. Maybe it's this fancy thing in the top that adds extra quality to the painting? Anyway whenever I look at the picture I got a feeling it is something I saw once. A forgotten dream or a retrospective memory of a former incarnation? Probably the former but maybe the latter...
I also like Pre-Raphaelites and 20th century Spanish stuff. I used to be a big Caspar David Friedrich fan when I was younger.
But this was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the topic of this thread:
Albrecht Altdorfer - "The Battle of Issus"
I saw it for the first time when I was about 14 and it made an enormous impact on me. Maybe it's this fancy thing in the top that adds extra quality to the painting? Anyway whenever I look at the picture I got a feeling it is something I saw once. A forgotten dream or a retrospective memory of a former incarnation? Probably the former but maybe the latter...
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sorry billy.
i actually came to arts forum to post a couple of amusing articles featuring well, different artists.
can't find an 'arts news' type thread so will just start a separate one.
but since i'm here
i'll share one of my favs i saw at the cleveland art museum a few years ago...
gray and gold by john rogers cox
i actually came to arts forum to post a couple of amusing articles featuring well, different artists.
can't find an 'arts news' type thread so will just start a separate one.
but since i'm here
i'll share one of my favs i saw at the cleveland art museum a few years ago...
gray and gold by john rogers cox
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Re: Post your favourite work of art here
I should think we have a few new members who haven't see this topic.
My current favourite is August Macke's Leute am blauen see.
http://en.easyart.com/art-prints/august ... 62864.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An honourable mention for Monet's Regatta at Argenteuil and Picasso's Don Quixote.
I'm trying to remember the artist who painted hundreds of interesting small human
figures in one picture - don't think it was Lowry - any ideas?
My current favourite is August Macke's Leute am blauen see.
http://en.easyart.com/art-prints/august ... 62864.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An honourable mention for Monet's Regatta at Argenteuil and Picasso's Don Quixote.
I'm trying to remember the artist who painted hundreds of interesting small human
figures in one picture - don't think it was Lowry - any ideas?
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Re: Post your favourite work of art here
Nice bump, Mr claimer. Was it Bruegel?
It may be dismissed as not high art by some on here (although I'm a big believer that there is no high art and low art, only good and bad), but I just can't get enough of David B's comic art at the moment. Anyone with an interest in any kind of literature should check out his magnum opus, Epileptic. Here's a few samples:
It may be dismissed as not high art by some on here (although I'm a big believer that there is no high art and low art, only good and bad), but I just can't get enough of David B's comic art at the moment. Anyone with an interest in any kind of literature should check out his magnum opus, Epileptic. Here's a few samples:
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Re: Post your favourite work of art here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 633386.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I heard some art critic trying to explain to the R4 interviewer that although these look like a child could have produced them they are actually very good!
They certainly don't do it for me - I like to be able to enjoy art for arts sake without having to research or 'understand' what the artist was trying to say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an uncouth pleb but I'm just as likely to enjoy a Jack Vettriano or a Dali as I am the other stuff on here
I heard some art critic trying to explain to the R4 interviewer that although these look like a child could have produced them they are actually very good!
They certainly don't do it for me - I like to be able to enjoy art for arts sake without having to research or 'understand' what the artist was trying to say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an uncouth pleb but I'm just as likely to enjoy a Jack Vettriano or a Dali as I am the other stuff on here
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