Rugby discussion

[liquidfootball2]

England lock Maro Itoje is healing fast and making good progress according to England's forwards coach Steve Borthwick.

What a choice this could be with Courtney Lawes having performed so well as his replacement. If fit to start, there's no question Itoje will do so, but Lawes may be battling it out with George Kruis for the other berth at lock with Kruis' ability in the line-out hard to leave out.

[liquidfootball2]

Dan Biggar limped off after 20 mins with his leg heavily strapped today at Northampton.

Gareth Anscombe always looked favoured to take the number ten against England anyway, but perhaps now it's pretty much decided.

[liquidfootball2]

Chris Ashton, a surprise starter against France, has picked up a slight calf injury which will mean he misses the game in Cardiff.

Jack Nowell who replaced him shortly after half time and also started against Ireland, will perhaps start again on the right wing, although there is a realistic alternative too as England head coach, Eddie Jones, does now have the consolation of having Bath’s powerhouse wing, Joe Cokanasiga, back in the reckoning following a ten week lay-off with a knee ligament injury.

The 21-year-old, who won his first cap against Japan in November and followed that try-scoring debut with another against Australia in a 37-18 win, returned to club action on Saturday and scored a try in his team’s 30-13 victory over Newcastle Falcons.

Exeter prop, Alec Hepburn, has also been drafted along with uncapped Worcester Warriors’ hooker, Jack Singleton, and another uncapped player, Gloucester wing, Ollie Thorley, is also included. Bath lock, Charlie Ewels, is also named in a 33-man squad that convened at Pennyhill Park on Sunday evening.

Otoje, Hartley and now Ashton have returned to their clubs with the expectation that both Itoje and Ashton will be involved after the Wales game and Hartley either then or for the Scotland game.


England training squad

Forwards: D Cole (Leicester Tigers), L Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), T Curry (Sale Sharks), B Earl (Saracens), C Ewels (Bath Rugby), E Genge (Leicester Tigers), J George (Saracens), A Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), N Hughes (Wasps), G Kruis (Saracens), J Launchbury (Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton Saints), B Moon (Exeter Chiefs), B Shields (Wasps), K Sinckler (Harlequins), J Singleton (Worcester Warriors), B Vunipola (Saracens), H Williams (Exeter Chiefs), M Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs: M Brown (Harlequins), J Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), E Daly (Wasps), O Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), O Farrell (Saracens) captain, G Ford (Leicester Tigers), J May (Leicester Tigers), J Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), D Robson (Wasps), H Slade (Exeter Chiefs), B Te'o (Worcester Warriors), O Thorley (Gloucester Rugby), M Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), B Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

This will be whittled down later in the week to the 23 man squad for Cardiff.

[DavidLloydIsAHero]

Mako is a big loss but arguably Biggar is more important in this matchup.

Presumably still without Halfpenny Wales would have been looking at Biggar and Williams to shut down England's kicking game and make them try something else. Biggar is also a warrior, nothing I've seen of Anscombe suggests the same and England will target him throughout the game. Is he up to it?

[liquidfootball2]

Mako is a big loss but arguably Biggar is more important in this matchup.

Presumably still without Halfpenny Wales would have been looking at Biggar and Williams to shut down England's kicking game and make them try something else. Biggar is also a warrior, nothing I've seen of Anscombe suggests the same and England will target him throughout the game. Is he up to it?

Dan Biggar's substitution was thank goodness just precautionary and the Northampton coach has since played down any fears of missing Saturday or potential problems, it's an injury he had been carrying going into the game and they took no risks. He apparently said he felt it but could have played on and is therefore expected to be available for Saturday, although it's far from clear if he or Gareth Anscombe will start at 10.

Obviously it's all about opinions and no longer an issue anyway, but 'arguably' is perhaps a very apt word when making the comparison between a prop and stand-off, two very different players in very different roles.

England can't easily replace Mako Vunipola, indeed far from it, there is noone who remotely comes anywhere near covering in reserve. I would go as far as saying that there isn't much of a comparison with whose loss would have been potentially been the greater, but fortunately no such comparison, as imperfect as such a comparison might be anyway, now needs to be made.

[liquidfootball2]

Despite apparently not being included in the thirty three man squad listed in my post of yesterday and my assumption that he'd thus gone back to his club...

Mari Itoje is very much back in the reckoning to start on Saturday at lock.

Courtney Lawes took his place against France with George Kruis the other lock having started both games

'Mitchell: Itoje progressing nicely'

http://www.skysports.com/share/11641407

[liquidfootball2]

The RFU has denied it's made an approach to Warren Gatland to become England's next head coach after Eddie Jones despite sources insisting that he has now indeed become the clear frontrunner with his extensive knowledge of the English game.

Eddie's contract runs until 2021 but contains a break clause depending on how England fare in the World Cup.

[liquidfootball2]

As expected Eddie Jones has made two changes to his England starting side for Saturday's contest in Cardiff against Wales, replacing the injured pair of Chris Ashton and Mako Vunipola with Jack Nowell and Ben Moon.

Bath wing Joe Cokanasiga and Wasps back-rower Brad Shields are named on the bench, included in the match day 23 for the first time this tournament.

Eddie Jones said: “England and Wales is always a big game. Intense rivals and there is the historical context to it, but for us it is our most important game because it is our next game and that is how we are treating it.

“Whenever you play against a Warren Gatland side you are playing against a side that is going to be very physical on the gain line. They are always very fit so you have to make sure you win the gain-line and then find opportunities of where you are going to attack them.

“As you have read in the media, it’s all about Wales, we are playing potentially the greatest team ever. Their players are full of emotion and it’s the biggest game they are going to play in their lives. We have had a good week just focussing on ourselves and focussing on getting our preparation right.”

On his selection planning, Jones added: “Ben Moon will start and Ellis Genge will finish so we will get a great 80 minutes out of those two. It is disappointing to lose a player of the calibre of Mako Vunipola but we have two very good players who will do a great job for us.

“Jack Nowell will start and Joe Cokanasiga will come onto the bench. As we saw in the autumn Joe is a player of great potential so we are looking forward to him adding to the squad.

“Brad Shields comes in for Nathan Hughes as a finisher as we just feel like it is going to be a high work-rate game.”

England squad to face Wales
15. Elliot Daly, 14. Jack Nowell, 13. Henry Slade, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Jonny May, 10. Owen Farrell (captain), 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ben Moon, 2. Jamie George, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Courtney Lawes, 5. George Kruis, 6. Mark Wilson, 7. Tom Curry, 8. Billy Vunipola
Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Ellis Genge, 18. Harry Williams, 19. Joe Launchbury, 20. Brad Shields, 21. Dan Robson, 22. George Ford, 23. Joe Cokanasiga

Jones is clearly expecting plenty of in-field kicking and a breathless pace, which is why Brad Shields has been preferred to Nathan Hughes on the bench.

[trampie]

Wales have gone with Anscombe over Biggar, I personally would have gone with Biggar, Biggar is a better place kicker, a better tackler and great under the high ball and has bags of commitment and passion, Anscombe is more flaky in general play but is a better running back with nice hands, he is capable of hitting the heights and putting in a match winning performance, after all he was the best fly half in NZ at under 20 level hence why Beauden Barrett was fullback in their U20 World Cup winning team and Gareth Anscombe was their starting #10.

If Biggar had started he probably would test Daly under the high ball with Biggar chasing his own kick, with Anscombe starting Wales will probably play a running game, I hope Anscombe is up to slotting his goal kicks and up to tackling Tuilagi and others running his channel, England maybe better off with Moon instead of M.Vunipola as Moon might be a stronger scrummager and with England kicking all the time M.Vunipola being a good player round the field for a prop he might only have been of limited use to them.

Happy to see Gareth Davies in at scrum half and Cory Hill starting in the second row, George North is an attacking threat but the less said about his defence the better, Liam Williams might have to help him out if England kick behind him, Navidi and Tipuric are flyers in the back row and are quick to the breakdown, in defence they might need to use their speed to help Anscombe.
Liam Williams, Navidi and Tipuric are top players in their positions but if they have to cover for others that would be a concern, as regards England who have a good team are they mentally capable of winning such a big game ?, we are about to find out, England v Wales in rugby is a huge game, one of the biggest head to heads anywhere in the World in rugby, historically not only are they neighbours and the two strongest teams in the Northern Hemisphere but their club teams played each other for a hundred years plus, it was an excellent win and performance for England out in Dublin and they destroyed France but for an English rugby player to try and beat a decent Welsh team in Cardiff would be one of the pinnacles of their career, if one team is better than the other then fine but if its close will one of the teams crack under the pressure, England are lucky they have Farrell in a key position on the field and as their goal kicker but we will see about some of the rest on Saturday.

[liquidfootball2]

The main surprise for me in Gatland's Wales starting line-up is Gareth Davies at 9 to partner Anscombe at 10.

Davies has yet to start a Six Nations game this term, but the Scarlets scrum half has been called up to partner Gareth Anscombe, who, as expected by many, has been chosen over British and Irish Lion Dan Biggar in the No 10 role. 

Davies scored a famous try at Twickenham in the 2015 World Cup and must hope he makes a similar impact on Saturday.

[trampie]

The main surprise for me in Gatland's Wales starting line-up is Gareth Davies at 9 to partner Anscombe at 10.

Davies has yet to start a Six Nations game this term, but the Scarlets scrum half has been called up to partner Gareth Anscombe, who, as expected by many, has been chosen over British and Irish Lion Dan Biggar in the No 10 role. 

Davies scored a famous try at Twickenham in the 2015 World Cup and must hope he makes a similar impact on Saturday.

Davies is a try scoring machine, most bookies will have him as far more likely to score a try than the English scrum half, PS on checking one even has him as twice as likely score the first try than his opposite number although his team is expected to lose by a handful of points.

[liquidfootball2]

You have to go an awful long time ago for Ben Young's as a try scorer against Wales, in fact all the way back to England's last win in Cardiff in the days of black and white TV, 2017 in fact - in England's last victory there, the very last time they played there.

Although tbf he's not normally heading England's list of try scorers and it's hardly surprising Davies is more fancied to score.

That match by coincidence finishing with exactly the same score as the previous encounter in Cardiff 16-21, England will be trying for three successive wins in a row there although it really could go either way for me, very close.

[hancockjr]

England never beat Wales when the year ends in 9. Sad but true.

[liquidfootball2]

England never beat Wales when the year ends in 9. Sad but true.

Yes I heard that too, absolutely bizarre some of the stats they come out with, almost like Spurs used to win the FA Cup in years ending in '1'. Just a statistical oddity though.

[trampie]

You have to go an awful long time ago for Ben Young's as a try scorer against Wales, in fact all the way back to England's last win in Cardiff in the days of black and white TV, 2017 in fact - in England's last victory there, the very last time they played there.

Although tbf he's not normally heading England's list of try scorers and it's hardly surprising Davies is more fancied to score.

That match by coincidence finishing with exactly the same score as the previous encounter in Cardiff 16-21, England will be trying for three successive wins in a row there although it really could go either way for me, very close.

Gareth Davies 11 tries in 35 internationals, Ben Youngs 14 tries in 79 internationals, Davies with a far superior strike rate, same with their club teams and the bookies know it, hence their odds on the merits of those two players scoring.

As regards Wales v England matches over the last 6 years, Wales won the most important two games, England have indeed won the last twice at Cardiff both times by a handful of points, the last time due to a last gasp try otherwise England would have lost, the previous win was a shock result as Wales had won 4 of the previous 5 against England at Cardiff and had been expected to win, those most important games in recent years I mention was a match at the last World Cup in 2015 which was a home World Cup for England but Wales won that match at Twickenham and previously there was the title decider in 2013 at Cardiff with Wales and England playing each other in the last round of games with England going for the Grand Slam and Wales having to win by at least 7 clear points to win the title, it was a massacre with Wales hammering the English by 30 points to 3.

[liquidfootball2]

Stats can be used to prove anything and can usually be interpreted to suit too.

It's hardly surprising that the most relevant encounters to both the current teams and their coaches are by some distance the most recent games between the two sides. These are the ones that are more likely to have contained a greater number of the current crop of players, and doubly so as the current coaches would have been responsible for the selection, set-up and approach of the respective sides.

Going back further inevitably has less relevance especially as one side had a different coach, and the number of current players who actually played in those games are generally fewer the further you go back.

So while England may have won six from the last seven encounters only four of them have been since Eddie Jones first season in 2016 and only one in Cardiff.

England have won all four of those matches but three have been at home.

There is therefore little direct comparison with Saturday's game, perhaps only the closely fought match of two years ago coming anywhere close.

Going further back pre-2016 may be enlightening for background but has decreasing relevance.

[trampie]

Jonny May, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs, Courtney Lawes and Billy Vunipola played and lost against Wales in the WC [and they are Englands main players], oddly enough England only had 4 starters when they won 12-6 at home against Wales last season that are going to start on the weekend [if I counted right] and of course Wales were robbed of a legitimate try that might have won them that game, the IRB apologised to Wales, highly unusual but the authorities got it so badly wrong that they apologised, I know it does not work like that but Wales are due a bit of luck [and they are on a big winning streak as well].
A last gasp score and a terrible refereeing decision has skewed the last two meetings in England's favour, I wonder if England will win if they don't get the bounce of the ball this time ?

[liquidfootball2]

I'm afraid it's pointless disputing such minutiae - I know you're a fervent Welsh supporter and I'm not trying to change that.

[trampie]

On the contrary you have done something like 57 posts to my 7 on this thread, I think it is you that is the fervent supporter and I am not trying to change that so keep the posts coming on all things England rugby.

[trampie]

Wales U20 beat England U20 11-10 tonight with Wales scoring the winning try with the last play of the game, I wonder if the seniors will end up having an equally close game tomorrow ?

[forestfan]

Absolutely awful second half from England, that was back to last year’s form.

As I said before, I suspected Wales had their name on it from what happened in the second half in France, just as Ireland did last year, and I can’t see the Irish stopping them taking the Grand Slam. Are they now the effective world number 2 and Northern Hemisphere’s biggest World Cup hope? For England, only pride to play for, the reserves get a run-out against Italy before a finale against Scotland that may well be meaningless.

[liquidfootball2]

Absolutely awful second half from England, that was back to last year’s form.

As I said before, I suspected Wales had their name on it from what happened in the second half in France, just as Ireland did last year, and I can’t see the Irish stopping them taking the Grand Slam. Are they now the effective world number 2 and Northern Hemisphere’s biggest World Cup hope? For England, only pride to play for, the reserves get a run-out against Italy before a finale against Scotland that may well be meaningless.

The table says they're two points behind not twenty-two.

It's hugely disappointing in that the old failing of ill discipline and a penalty count of 9-3 against came back to haunt them, conceding penalties costs field position and points. Too many players didn't perform in that twenty minute period, but ill discipline and the penalty count brought that pressure on, and pressure brings mistakes.

Those two bonus points against Ireland and France could prove crucial. Wales have to beat both Scotland away and Ireland home, possible but away from home is harder and Ireland at home never so easy. Ireland may even beat them and that failure to pick up five points against Italy could yet prove decisive.

* Three extra points are awarded if a team does the grand slam meaning it automatically guarantees winning the championship.

This is massive for Wales but in Japan noone will have home backing, there won't be a stadium behind them and it will be a different atmosphere. Ireland haven't suddenly disappeared off the map and one defeat in the cauldron of the principality stadium doesn't turn England into no hopers.

What this perhaps has done is underline just how important Mako is for England's game plan. The loss of Mako cant be understated they missed him immensely, he's not just possibly the world's best prop, but it's his whole all-round contribution. In the biggest games you really need your best players, especially the top class ones and Mako is arguably the best.

What he brings is multi faceted, not just in the set piece but set plays, their block defence, his ball carrying in set moves - getting over the gain line and setting up quick possession, as well as his scavanging in the loose or broken play. Players often become even better when they're injured as you find out just how much they're missed, but Mako's skills are hard to replicate by any other one player in England's squad right now.

Maro Itoje's loss isn't anything like as keenly felt as we have decent replacements. We can't adequately replace Mako.

There is absolutely no comparison with the injury ravaged side of last year when the team of injured players was far stronger than the actual team.

The question "Are they now the effective world number 2 and Northern Hemisphere’s biggest World Cup hope?" seems to be knee-jerk at best and based on one second half twenty minute period, eight points was the margin not twenty-eight.

Why is there only pride left to play for (for England)? I'm not too sure you've looked at the table. The biggest negative was the return of ill discipline and a tough penalty count against them.

[trampie]

Well we now know who is currently the better team head to head out of Wales and England and it is Wales, Wales were thoroughly deserving of their victory today over England.

[trampie]

Looking ahead to the next WC and Wales have British Lions Halfpenny and Faleteau to comeback into the mix, previous first choice players like Scott Williams and Lydiate are also to comeback and then there are players like Samson Lee and Ellis Jenkins [who many think is a future captain of Wales] all out injured.
Add some of those players to some of the current team and Wales will have a squad with some depth, smaller countries often struggle to replace injured players due to a smaller player base to pick from but if Wales end up with few or no injured players at some point in the near future they are going to have a lot of strength in depth.

[unc.si.]

Absolutely awful second half from England, that was back to last year’s form.

As I said before, I suspected Wales had their name on it from what happened in the second half in France, just as Ireland did last year, and I can’t see the Irish stopping them taking the Grand Slam. Are they now the effective world number 2 and Northern Hemisphere’s biggest World Cup hope? For England, only pride to play for, the reserves get a run-out against Italy before a finale against Scotland that may well be meaningless.

The table says they're two points behind not twenty-two. Ten points at home against Scotland and Italy would mean Wales effectively having to beat Ireland home and Scotland away with four tries scored in at least one of them, possible but away from home is harder and Ireland at home never so easy.

If you win the grand slam you get extra bonus points, ie if Wales beat Scotland and Ireland they win the championship as well, even without bonus points. Would be a farce if you could win every match and lose the championship on bonus points.

Just got back from the pub after the match (watching with mainly Welsh fans ). Great game to watch. Something wrong with the England coaching though. Why keep kicking to Liam Williams? Should have been a different tactic for Wales, or at least go through a few more phases and then kick if the space opens up. Too many loose kicks on the first couple of phases.

Seems that if Englands Plan A is working then they win, but if not they still don't seem able to adapt. Williams is a world class full back. You're not going to get the ball back if you kick it to him, and you don't win matches without the ball. Can't recall England going through more than a few phases at any point in the game.

AWJ and Liam Williams were immense. Billy V still out of sorts. No Mako and Maro hurts England but they've got a big playing pool and should be able to absorb losing them without too much trouble. In truth I don't think they'd have made the difference today. First half honours even but Wales by far the better team in the second.

[forestfan]

Yeah, the points system sensibly ensures that any Grand Slam winner will be champions. Strangely though the bookies still make England favourites for the title... obviously thinking Ireland will win in Cardiff, which I’m not convinced about, the Irish will surely rotate their squad ahead of the World Cup and not sure they will be really fired up to win the remaining games.

I don’t think there’s much between the three sides (and South Africa) really, any of them could face the All Blacks in the final, depending on how the draw is set.

[sportsmeister]

Yeah, the points system sensibly ensures that any Grand Slam winner will be champions. Strangely though the bookies still make England favourites for the title... obviously thinking Ireland will win in Cardiff, which I’m not convinced about, the Irish will surely rotate their squad ahead of the World Cup and not sure they will be really fired up to win the remaining games.

Wales are away to Scotland first and the bookies are suggesting its an even game with a +2 handicap for Scotland.

If Wales don't win the GS then England's bonus points should carry them to the title

[liquidfootball2]

Absolutely awful second half from England, that was back to last year’s form.

As I said before, I suspected Wales had their name on it from what happened in the second half in France, just as Ireland did last year, and I can’t see the Irish stopping them taking the Grand Slam. Are they now the effective world number 2 and Northern Hemisphere’s biggest World Cup hope? For England, only pride to play for, the reserves get a run-out against Italy before a finale against Scotland that may well be meaningless.

The table says they're two points behind not twenty-two. Ten points at home against Scotland and Italy would mean Wales effectively having to beat Ireland home and Scotland away with four tries scored in at least one of them, possible but away from home is harder and Ireland at home never so easy.

If you win the grand slam you get extra bonus points, ie if Wales beat Scotland and Ireland they win the championship as well, even without bonus points. Would be a farce if you could win every match and lose the championship on bonus points.

...No Mako and Maro hurts England but they've got a big playing pool and should be able to absorb losing them without too much trouble. In truth I don't think they'd have made the difference today. First half honours even but Wales by far the better team in the second.

Yes you are right on the first point and I had corrected my original post to reflect this, fully agree it would be a farce and correct to ensure it can't happen.

Wales certainly deserved it, England didnt play at all in the second half perhaps not helped by constantly infringing the laws, you just can't keep inviting pressure.

Obviously opinions are subjective in nature but i haven't heard or read the first half was even too many times and it was far from my impression. For me the first half England looked to be well on their way to a third decisive win but the second half they were very much second best.

Brian Moore amongst many have said the line England are lucky to have so many players to pick from is indeed true, but is only helpful up to an extent. Within any squad there will always be weaker or even weakest points, and players that are so much better than the alternatives that you really can't replace without a huge or at least very significant detrimental effect.

England can replace Maro with Courtney Lawes or Joe Launchberry without it being too disastrous and there they are indeed lucky. But I'm afraid they can't with Mako, they have props who undoubtedly can do a job, perhaps scrummage well and are decent, but nowhere near him for other facets, he is one in their current squad they just find impossible to replace with anything remotely like for like.

Liam Williams is a top player and a Lion for a reason, he knows how to play full back and follow the play limiting the space available for kicks in behind, he can therefore field such kicks far more quickly as his positioning is far better, and from there run or kick it back. This is a real difference from ireland or France who fielded centres or wings at full back and generally conceded space.

Yesterday England were on top in the first half but just didn't perform in the second. Lack of discipline and constantly infringing yielding field position, pressure and points was key. You can't invite so much pressure by your own indiscipline as pressure brings mistakes and your whole game just disintegrates as you can't even get started, lose any flow and all parts of your game, including the kicking become woeful and infected.

Kicking can't just be dismissed though, it just has to be used in the right areas and at the right times, the key is knowing where the space is and when to kick and when to spread the ball, but the best way to beat a rush defence is often kicking into the space behind, it just needs more accuracy and precision.

[liquidfootball2]

Yeah, the points system sensibly ensures that any Grand Slam winner will be champions. Strangely though the bookies still make England favourites for the title... obviously thinking Ireland will win in Cardiff, which I’m not convinced about, the Irish will surely rotate their squad ahead of the World Cup and not sure they will be really fired up to win the remaining games.

I don’t think there’s much between the three sides (and South Africa) really, any of them could face the All Blacks in the final, depending on how the draw is set.

Ireland will rotate for Italy, but I very much doubt they will rotate in such a crunch game in which they could yet be competing with Wales and England for the title. (Wales have no bonus points and have played Italy, an Irish win if they get a bonus against Italy and maybe one with four tries could get them a second or even third bonus (depending on round five vs France). Odds are they will be very fired up for it.

I agree with the poster above on Scotland Wales, home advantage is invariably huge and Scotland at Murrayfield a completely different proposition, that game could be hard to call too.

Strangely though the bookies still make England favourites for the title... obviously thinking Ireland will win in Cardiff, which I’m not convinced about,

Maybe the bookies just don't agree with you that England have only 'pride' to play for?

Scotland at Murrayfield is in that calculation too.

[unc.si.]

Can the title be altered to Rugby Union discussion?

Very misleading.


I came on to talk about proper rugby and the thread is about a load of public schoolboys kicking the ball and playing 'all pile on' for eighty minutes.

Was at the DW yesterday (Wigan - Hull) and saw the first 'Golden point' win in Superleague history. 22-22 at full time. Unfortunately Hull got a drop kick within the first minute of extra time and Wigans last 20 minute comeback was for nothing.

Not sure whether I like it or not - I'd have liked it a lot more if it was Wigan getting the golden point

Nice day out in the sunshine. Was sat a few seats away from Andy Gregory and also got a big cheer for my crowd catch from a penalty kick to touch