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England test cricket

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Re: England test cricket

Post by hancockjr »

The greatest boon to Cricket following this country has seen since 1981 was the 2005 Ashes - so many people got into Cricket from that, in a way no World Cup win would ever achieve.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by forestfan »

The problem is the game would have no narrative to it, it would just be a load of guns for hire as I mentioned. Imagine if Ronaldo played 2 months a year in Spain, 2 in England, 2 in China, 2 in the Middle East... players and teams would just have no real identity. That’s where cricket would be headed under that scenario. Nobody outside India would care and eventually it would shrink back into just that one part of the world.

It will never catch on big time in North America, just as baseball won’t over here. A waste of time and money if they even try.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

forestfan wrote: 28 May 2018, 20:03 The problem is the game would have no narrative to it, it would just be a load of guns for hire as I mentioned. ..

..... Nobody outside India would care and eventually it would shrink back into just that one part of the world.

It will never catch on big time in North America, just as baseball won’t over here. A waste of time and money if they even try.
You are really speaking to the already converted as to the shortcomings of one-day cricket, i'm in total agreement and in your corner, it would be anathema to me.

Premium test series may well survive although even that small crumb is perhaps doubtful, most players would be geared up for one-day cricket if their livelihoods depended on it, so it may well just wither away.

Perhaps I am envisaging a dystopian future and painting a bleak picture but I'm not at all optimistic and can't pretend to be.

Cricket will never match already established 'American' sports, of course it won't rival them, that's just not even on the most rose-tinted future agendas. It can though in such a large country have a niche following in a much smaller way, perhaps one day rivalling men's soccer. The American market is so vast and so diverse that a substantial and sustained breakthrough that makes money for cricket can still be minute in comparison to their major sports.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 28 May 2018, 22:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

hancockjr wrote: 28 May 2018, 20:02 The greatest boon to Cricket following this country has seen since 1981 was the 2005 Ashes - so many people got into Cricket from that, in a way no World Cup win would ever achieve.
You would be hard pushed to find anyone who disagrees with that.

The wider points as to the success and future of tests going forward throughout the world, and therefore the consequences for test cricket going forward in this country, and more immediately how to reverse our current decline in the longer form of the game, are questions with more difficult answers.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

England might still collapse it happens so often but that was never a 174 all out pitch, someone was almost certain to get some runs on it and the Pakistan lower order showed just how bad that total was.

It's still a rubbish total despite the added runs and that's whether England collapse or not, but England are now very handily placed 68 behind, even if losing that second wicket so late in the day was a blow.

The forecast for Leeds tomorrow looks a bit unsettled and there could well be a fair bit of rain. Maybe an on-off sort of day in prospect which is always difficult, it may even be rained off.

England can't really do much about the weather but they've done well today and that was much needed.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by blahblah »

We need a thread about the XI.....

Not sure the pitch was as relevant as the air\atmosphere tbh and this is what should have happened at Lords?

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Just as Root probably should have elected to field first at Lords, it was Safraz Ahmed who possibly made the wrong decision here.

The pitch was straw coloured and looked good for batting but the overheads looked good for swing bowling and England had in Anderson, Broad and Woakes, bowlers who could exploit them.

It was probably a brave decision to bat first against an England team whose morale and confidence has sunk to new depths previously uncharted in living memory, a bold decision to try and stamp on a bedraggled opponents neck and kill them off while they were down.

Pakistan though batted feebly and were all too often complicit in their own downfall, Broad bowled particularly well following the well publicised calls for his replacement by an ex England captain, and England took advantage of some loose Pakistani batting totally bereft of the discipline they'd shown at Lords.

England seemed to take the confidence gained from an encouraging performance in the field into their batting, and although Jennings was once again out in familiar fashion - caught at the crease to one he could have left, he'd shown enough signs of an improvement in technique, with a notably higher backlift and standing slightly further out from the crease to negate the swing, to offer some hope of better things to come.

Cook went just before the close, gloving a pull behind which was a disappointing end to a very good day after doing so much of the groundwork to build a platform to kick on from.

Rain though now looks as though it will possibly wash out most if not all of today, but the game is far enough advanced already to hope four days will be enough.

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Re: England test cricket

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With a swinging ball and both the overheads and wicket giving bowlers plenty of assistance - always keeping them interested, batting was never going to be an easy task today, you always felt a batsman could never truly count himself as 'in' even with a start.

Nevertheless nine batsmen scoring between 16 and 49 does continue a far longer sequence of too many getting starts but failing to really go on and convert them.

Without far greater individual contributions, and preferably centuries from the so called test quality batsmen, we will continue to struggle to win enough tests to significantly climb the test rankings, but instead be set for an extended period in the nether regions of the table.

Collectively though England have scrapped well enough and they've now battled their way to take what could be a very decisive lead in this test. With yet another cloudy day on the horizon for tomorrow it's even possible a fourth day may not be needed.

With both swing in the air and off the pitch plus an up and down wicket, batting will only get more difficult still. That lead of 128 with three wickets left is probably worth as many as 200 on another wicket on another day.

Once again though the batting frailties are all too apparent despite everyone contributing something. The very same questions about just how fit for purpose the current County Championship is for producing test cricketers, and especially test batsmen, will be asked.

Has the mushrooming of the big money twenty twenty tournaments around the world meant that most young cricketers now see white ball cricket as a far more likely route to earning a lucrative living from the game, and having ability or practicing to improve at red ball cricket something now just not worth the time and effort?

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

It now looks as if last night's forecast was far too pessimistic and a much brighter and perhaps sunnier day is in prospect.

If it's a batting day it will massively improve Pakistan's chances of turning this around.

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Re: England test cricket

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The biggest problem with our county cricket is the scheduling. Playing in April and September will never develop Test class batsmen and bowlers, as the conditions are so favourable to moderate paced swing bowling. The second biggest is the clampdown on Kolpaks and incentives to play young English players, which has diluted quality and intensity.

Anyway, lead of over 180, there’s no excuse for losing from here, though if we have to chase 150 I expect a few nerves.

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Re: England test cricket

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forestfan wrote:The biggest problem with our county cricket is the scheduling. Playing in April and September will never develop Test class batsmen and bowlers, as the conditions are so favourable to moderate paced swing bowling. The second biggest is the clampdown on Kolpaks and incentives to play young English players, which has diluted quality and intensity.
The Championship played in April and September is largely a consequence of the restructuring of the season to maximise revenue from white ball cricket. However I do fully agree with you on it's detrimental effects of fulfilling it's main purpose, namely the production of test quality candidates for England. Unfortunately given the current voting structures, the necessary majority to enforce change won't be reached any time soon.

The preponderance of result wickets around certain counties doesn't help either, flatter wickets more conducive to producing test quality batsmen are seemingly only found at test venues such as The Oval and Surrey perhaps suffer as a result. Possibly playing with a Kookaburra ball in early and late fixtures may stop 70 mph very ordinary seamers collecting wickets by the bucketfull.

Young players, very often seeing their futures in the white ball versions of the game anyway, will play red ball cricket with those same looser techniques which are so necessary to prosper in the shorter forms of the game. Result pitches mean a ball with your name on it is coming and therefore an attitude of making hay while the sun shines is understandable. Better wickets may not make concentrating hard and trying to stay in for the longer haul so counter productive.

Kolpak players:-

Lancashire do have Shivnarine Chanderpaul and Dane Vilas and their coach Paul Allott has been very vocal on the positive effects this scheme brings for county sides. I haven't really looked around the other counties and if Lancashire are now very much an exception.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... t-12570621
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 03 Jun 2018, 12:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by forestfan »

How about 3 divisions, 10 matches per season, and a message that only players in the top division will be considered for England other than in exceptional circumstances?

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

forestfan wrote:How about 3 divisions, 10 matches per season, and a message that only players in the top division will be considered for England other than in exceptional circumstances?
The time of year that fixtures are played and the largely green seamers they play on (with a prominently seamed Duke ball too) are as you say the main problem.

Anything that may be beneficial to altering these must be worthy of consideration.

Eighteen counties could be split into three divisions giving less fixtures and perhaps more flexibility as to the time of year they're played, so I do think that does have some merit.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Two test series are farcical and lack any context at all, they could have split the summer with three tests against Pakistan and one less test against India.

I suppose once the cloud cover came over before the start of play it always seemed likely England would make quick runs and blow them away.

England then proceeded to make more than expected and in quick time too, before Pakistan's batting was even worse than expected.

England may have been suffering a hangover from their tough winter tour at Lord's and underperformed badly, morale and confidence must have understandably been at rock bottom too.

They had to respond and they did so in emphatic fashion even if this win can't paper over the obvious fault lines still there.

Next up is India who are notoriously poor travellers away from the subcontinent even if they are excellent at home on big spinning wickets. They usually don't have a seam attack good enough for English conditions with their backup bowlers particularly weak.

England have won very easily indeed on their last two tours here despite them being number one or two in the world rankings at the time. (Tbf the rankings will always favour India as they play the vast majority of their tests at home or at least on the subcontinent).

Nevertheless with our well documented current batting frailties still far from solved and confidence still brittle despite this win, this time could be a far tougher test for England.

I'm still not convinced Trevor Bayliss should be England coach at red ball cricket and Joe Root has a lot to improve on with both his own captaincy and batting. Although still scoring decently he seems to have lost the ability to convert his starts into centuries since he became captain, maybe the two are connected.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by hancockjr »

Good thing this has been revealed when he has done well:


http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/10 ... nscription

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Re: England test cricket

Post by baganboy »

Is this where we talk about the India in England series? Or is there any other place?

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Re: England test cricket

Post by primitive man »

baganboy wrote: 20 Jul 2018, 06:31 Is this where we talk about the India in England series? Or is there any other place?
You could start a new India in England 2018 thread.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by forestfan »

primitive man wrote: 20 Jul 2018, 10:59
baganboy wrote: 20 Jul 2018, 06:31 Is this where we talk about the India in England series? Or is there any other place?
You could start a new India in England 2018 thread.
There's already two England cricket threads, this one and:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=124671

The other one's in the fantasy cricket section but doesn't feature any fantasy game specific discussion. More sense in perhaps merging these than starting a third one!

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Re: England test cricket

Post by Edmondson »

forestfan wrote: 27 Sep 2017, 23:15 Well, a rather crappy looking Ashes squad overshadowed by the Stokes incident.

Video of the fight just released, doesn't look good, though rumours of strong provocation. But he (and his team-mates, Hales possibly not the only one there) shouldn't have got into that sort of situation, and in the middle of an international series as well.
The first day of trial does not appear to be supporting this idea that he was provoked!! Remember the media running with some kinds of “he was defending 2 gay men” vibe, now sounds like a PR spin to make him out as the hero!! Eye witness at trial stating he was mocking two gay men and flicked his fag end at one of them.

I stated at the time that I hope he goes down for it and from reading about first day of trial would certainly stand by that.

Even his comments after winning the 1st Test about “that should shut people up” we’re big headed / semi threatening, showing he hasn’t really learnt at all, he needs someone sorting him out, rather than pandering to his ego.

A real shame as a big talent, a joy to watch, but a spell inside is what he is looking at now I would think.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Edmondson wrote:
forestfan wrote: 27 Sep 2017, 23:15 Well, a rather crappy looking Ashes squad overshadowed by the Stokes incident.

Video of the fight just released, doesn't look good, though rumours of strong provocation. But he (and his team-mates, Hales possibly not the only one there) shouldn't have got into that sort of situation, and in the middle of an international series as well.
The first day of trial does not appear to be supporting this idea that he was provoked!! Remember the media running with some kinds of “he was defending 2 gay men” vibe, now sounds like a PR spin to make him out as the hero!! Eye witness at trial stating he was mocking two gay men and flicked his fag end at one of them.

I stated at the time that I hope he goes down for it and from reading about first day of trial would certainly stand by that.

Even his comments after winning the 1st Test about “that should shut people up” we’re big headed / semi threatening, showing he hasn’t really learnt at all, he needs someone sorting him out, rather than pandering to his ego.

A real shame as a big talent, a joy to watch, but a spell inside is what he is looking at now I would think.
Its the prosecutions job to paint his actions in the worst possible light, they won't be holding back or giving any mitigation and will do their best to give only one side of the story.

To comment after the prosecution has called its witnesses and outlined it's case is normally when you've heard the worst possible scenario, there is no defence as they haven't been heard yet.

A more balanced judgement can possibly be reached at a later point.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by blahblah »

Edmondson wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 17:18 and flicked his fag end at one of them.
You mean cig? Or his fag butt :wink: (I have only just thought of those innuendos having just given up after 30 odd years :shock: )

Can there be 2 sets of people both accusing and defending? It seems that there were just 3 fighting, and are all sat next to each other in the Dock? :shock:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45082248
Nicholas Corsellis, prosecuting, said Mr Stokes, 27, had "knocked Mr Hale unconscious and then - after time to pause for thought, to calm - he did exactly the same to Mr Ali".

Mr Corsellis told the jury a bottle was used at the beginning by Mr Ali, and a broken street sign brought into the fray towards the end by Mr Hale.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »


blahblah wrote:
Edmondson wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 17:18 and flicked his fag end at one of them.


Can there be 2 sets of people both accusing and defending? It seems that there were just 3 fighting, and are all sat next to each other in the Dock? :shock:


[/i]
Mr Corsellis has outlined the case for the prosecution, normally in a trial we have the defence outlining theirs, but with the 3 people involved in the fighting all in the dock, we won't bother....

Sounds good?

There can be no defence because there hasn't been any.


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Re: England test cricket

Post by forestfan »

There must be some defence, or you would wonder why he wasn’t advised to plead guilty.

I expect he will get the “celebrity let-off” of a fine and community service/suspended sentence, if found guilty. But the question is what it will do to his cricket career, will his ability to travel be restricted, do England punish him again (after bizarrely suspending him before he was charged then reinstating him after it was made official). Australia cut off their noses to spite their face with Smith, Warner and Bancroft, for something trivial by comparison but, crucially, related to on-field matters. Anyone’s guess what the ECB will do here.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by blahblah »

OK, I think I am with it now: all 3 are charged with Affray ie fighting: which seems freaking obvious as 2 were left unconscious. I had assumed some sort of A\GBH charges due to the broken eye socket etc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45082248

has more words now:

CCTV showed Mr Ali hitting Mr Barry on the shoulder with a bottle.

Mr Stokes threw at punch at Mr Ali, and the pair fell to the ground, the jury were told.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by Edmondson »

liquidfootball2 wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 17:26
Edmondson wrote:
forestfan wrote: 27 Sep 2017, 23:15 Well, a rather crappy looking Ashes squad overshadowed by the Stokes incident.

Video of the fight just released, doesn't look good, though rumours of strong provocation. But he (and his team-mates, Hales possibly not the only one there) shouldn't have got into that sort of situation, and in the middle of an international series as well.
The first day of trial does not appear to be supporting this idea that he was provoked!! Remember the media running with some kinds of “he was defending 2 gay men” vibe, now sounds like a PR spin to make him out as the hero!! Eye witness at trial stating he was mocking two gay men and flicked his fag end at one of them.

I stated at the time that I hope he goes down for it and from reading about first day of trial would certainly stand by that.

Even his comments after winning the 1st Test about “that should shut people up” we’re big headed / semi threatening, showing he hasn’t really learnt at all, he needs someone sorting him out, rather than pandering to his ego.

A real shame as a big talent, a joy to watch, but a spell inside is what he is looking at now I would think.
Its the prosecutions job to paint his actions in the worst possible light, they won't be holding back or giving any mitigation and will do their best to give only one side of the story.

To comment after the prosecution has called its witnesses and outlined it's case is normally when you've heard the worst possible scenario, there is no defence as they haven't been heard yet.

A more balanced judgement can possibly be reached at a later point.
I get your point but just applying some judgement. The nightclub bouncer may have been really offended and cheesed off with Stokes but why lie about Stokes actions towards the 2 gay men - risk of being had up for perjury? Just seems a bit much. Wasn’t there cctv footage as well to back it up?

The video released at the time shows Stokes as the aggressor, right after the incident we heard some potential mitigating circumstances which now appear to be shown as being completely reversed by a 3rd party witness.

Will be interesting to hear Stokes defence but feels like Hales stating “Stoeksy was a little bit hyped up but he’s harmless honestly” might be a bit flimsy.

Interesting point on why he didn’t plead guilty if it was that clear cut, maybe some bullish celebrity lawyer type, maybe some dodgy stuff going on behind the scenes, who knows?

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

forestfan wrote:There must be some defence, or you would wonder why he wasn’t advised to plead guilty.

I expect he will get the “celebrity let-off” of a fine and community service/suspended sentence, if found guilty. But the question is what it will do to his cricket career, will his ability to travel be restricted, do England punish him again (after bizarrely suspending him before he was charged then reinstating him after it was made official). Australia cut off their noses to spite their face with Smith, Warner and Bancroft, for something trivial by comparison but, crucially, related to on-field matters. Anyone’s guess what the ECB will do here.

Yes from all the videos you would think on the surface there can be no defence, but he has a top legal team representing him and will have been given the appropriate advice on how to plea, and exactly what consequences that may have, although he doesn't have to take that advice.

An early guilty plea...

offers a one-third discount on a sentence

and indicates remorse and acceptance of responsibility on the defendant’s part which can be taken into account too.

So if he was advised to plead not guilty it does mean there is almost certainly a case to be put.

The prosecution can also give a very slanted version of events, not necessarily very accurate, and what led up to them, both in the causes any provocations and the extent of any injuries both physical and otherwise, it's their job to do so.

I invariably find i'm convinced of the correct verdict after hearing only one side of the story only to possibly alter that view a little later.

From what i've heard....

(although tbf I have discussed it with some lawyer and barrister friends too)

For this type of offence and seriousness, if he is found guilty of affray, a custodial sentence is almost certain although in his particular case they suspect it's likely to be suspended.

A sentence of between four and twelve months (suspended?) is perhaps more realistic than the three years max often touted in the press

Working on the assumption Stokes has no previous criminal convictions and is committed to engaging fully with interventions to prevent a recurrence of such behaviour, the Judge will be more likely to suspend the imprisonment and be lenient.

He may get a community service order in addition but as with footballers they can usually be worked around his work commitments, although touring may be an issue.

For the ECB, who have in effect punished him very heavily already, by banning him from the iconic ashes series and all other cricket for months, even though at that stage he had not been found guilty of anything, to try and meet out a further period of punishment would be ludicrous and highly contentious and may well leave them open to legal action themselves, it would be like being punished not twice but three times for the same crime.

If they had allowed him to carry on playing until found guilty in the civil courts, they would have every right to decide on their own additional measures too, but having punished him once already in missing such an iconic series, that right is far less certain and may in effect have expired to all intents and purposes, although 'unofficially' not selecting him can't be ruled out.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 06 Aug 2018, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Edmondson wrote:
liquidfootball2 wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 17:26
Edmondson wrote:
forestfan wrote: 27 Sep 2017, 23:15 Well, a rather crappy looking Ashes squad overshadowed by the Stokes incident.

Video of the fight just released, doesn't look good, though rumours of strong provocation. But he (and his team-mates, Hales possibly not the only one there) shouldn't have got into that sort of situation, and in the middle of an international series as well.
The first day of trial does not appear to be supporting this idea that he was provoked!! Remember the media running with some kinds of “he was defending 2 gay men” vibe, now sounds like a PR spin to make him out as the hero!! Eye witness at trial stating he was mocking two gay men and flicked his fag end at one of them.

I stated at the time that I hope he goes down for it and from reading about first day of trial would certainly stand by that.

Even his comments after winning the 1st Test about “that should shut people up” we’re big headed / semi threatening, showing he hasn’t really learnt at all, he needs someone sorting him out, rather than pandering to his ego.

A real shame as a big talent, a joy to watch, but a spell inside is what he is looking at now I would think.
Its the prosecutions job to paint his actions in the worst possible light, they won't be holding back or giving any mitigation and will do their best to give only one side of the story.

To comment after the prosecution has called its witnesses and outlined it's case is normally when you've heard the worst possible scenario, there is no defence as they haven't been heard yet.

A more balanced judgement can possibly be reached at a later point.
I get your point but just applying some judgement. The nightclub bouncer may have been really offended and cheesed off with Stokes but why lie about Stokes actions towards the 2 gay men - risk of being had up for perjury? Just seems a bit much. Wasn’t there cctv footage as well to back it up ..............

......The video released at the time shows Stokes as the aggressor, right after the incident we heard some potential mitigating circumstances which now appear to be shown as being completely reversed by a 3rd party witness.

This is all supposition about causes and intent and evidence based on what may not be a very accurate version of those events. It's the wrong time for any judgements imo.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by Edmondson »

Another day in court, some cross examination from Stokesy’s QC and just seems very flimsy defence, some jumped up expensive legal twit trying to challenge a witness and turn it around on him, with no basis and video footage that strongly supports the witness.

The advice Stokes received looks increasingly like it was bullish bullsh*t aimed at lining the pockets of his defence team. A reliance on the celebrity get away it angle - which I’ve no doubt could still be a factor.

Just looks increasingly embarassing for Stokes, he acted like a complete %#$¥ and should go to prison.

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Re: England test cricket

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Edmondson wrote: 07 Aug 2018, 23:23 Another day in court, some cross examination from Stokesy’s QC and just seems very flimsy defence, some jumped up expensive legal twit trying to challenge a witness and turn it around on him, with no basis and video footage that strongly supports the witness.

The advice Stokes received looks increasingly like it was bullish bullsh*t aimed at lining the pockets of his defence team. A reliance on the celebrity get away it angle - which I’ve no doubt could still be a factor.

Just looks increasingly embarassing for Stokes, he acted like a complete %#$¥ and should go to prison.

If a person doesn't look massively guilty after a prosecution has outlined it's case, and after calling it's witnesses to then support and reinforce that case, then the prosecution probably hasn't done a very good job.

Since he's pleaded not guilty, the likelihood is that he's been briefed to do so, and if so, there's also a very strong possibility of a good defence. Any evidence including videos, recordings or indeed mitigation of any kind, will not be put forward by the prosecution or it's witnesses. Even cross examination of those prosecution witnesses by the defence can only do so much, and even then can sometimes only be mostly aimed at undermining the witnesses credibility.

To judge now is not exactly ideal, most of the time after only the prosecution's case has been put, almost anyone, however actually innocent or guilty, seems to be very guilty of all or most charges brought.

It seems ludicrous to form an opinion having just heard one side of the evidence, if there a case for the defence as seems very likely, it will come later.

As far as the ECB punishment goes, if found guilty, he will be punished by the civil authorities but in addition to this he has already been punished by his employers.

They have already banned him from the iconic ashes series and months of all cricket, so he will have been punished once by the civil authority and secondly his own cricket board.

If the ECB try and punish him for a third time for the same crime, they may well leave themselves open to legal action, as it will then be highly contentious and possibly could be acted upon as a case of harsh and unwarranted behaviour by an employer.

The ECB only lifted it's previous suspension of the player (when at that stage not found guilty of anything) on the advice of their lawyers, fearing they could be sued for restraint of trade with a costly legal case and all the consequent reputational damage if they were to lose again, not to mention the irrevocable split that would inevitably result between the board and player, with Stokes effectively, although not contractually, permanently banned even if he was successful in his lawsuit against them. It would have been a legal nightmare whatever the outcome.

The ECB has a history of losing in the courts going back decades and may not welcome even the hint of possible further action.

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Edmondson
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Re: England test cricket

Post by Edmondson »

Presumably they just wouldn’t renew his contract in October and then be done with him?

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