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Loan Agreement Headaches

Ultimate Fantasy Premier League - starting 2014/15
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Football Hero
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Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

I'm really struggling to get my head around when it is good to use strategic/performance related loan agreements.

For instance, if I had Rooney from GW4 onwards, then switching him out for Giroud from GW8 - GW10 could be slightly profitable.

Then switching out Rooney to Aguero for GW17 - GW20 could also be profitable.

However, the latter loan deal would mean that I would need to hope that Aguero will be fit and available for when GW17 comes around, and also if I were to do this, I would need to keep 1.5M in the bank to upgrade Rooney to Aguero, so I am going to have a team that is only valued at 158.5M from September to January, compared to my rivals that will likely be using up their whole 160.0M budget. I am then also gambling on Aguero not outscoring Rooney significantly from GW4 - GW16 as well. It looks like I will need an awful lot to go right, in order to eek out a very meagre profit from a couple of loans in the first half of the season.

Is it me or are these loan agreements just for injuries, in which case they kind of suck, since you have already lost out by having one of your big players being injured, and then the loan just helps mitigate some of that loss.

Surely a points penalty of 3 or 4 points for the first week, and then 1 point for every subsequent week of the deal up to a maximum of 4 weeks, would make these loan agreements more appealing and useful.

Thoughts?

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The Catman
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

Playing the beat last year helped make my mind up to steer clean of loans wherever possible.

The 4 week loan seems to be much cheaper but once you have made it you are stuck with it for four weeks as if you wanted to bring, say, Aguero back in you lose the points spent on the loan in the first place.

Football Hero
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

The problem with avoiding loans is that you are surely passing up on a key part of the game, and therefore giving away an edge that with careful preparation you could/should be taking advantage of to get the jump on your rivals.

The reason that I am considering potential loans right now in August, is because I will probably need to set my GW4 team up with the right players in order to have that potential to make the profitable loans I want to do, later on.

I'm just wondering what other people are doing. Are they avoiding loans unless they get an injury?

skip
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by skip »

You pretty much summed it up, I think the loan prices are too high and they are best steered clear of except in extreme situations (double game weeks, injuries to several key players).

Football Hero
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

You pretty much summed it up, I think the loan prices are too high and they are best steered clear of except in extreme situations (double game weeks, injuries to several key players).
Does that not then feel like the game is a bit 'broken' to you then?

I mean really for the first half of the season, we are just hoping that we guess a bit better than our rivals in terms of who are the best prospects for the season, and if you get it wrong, then you just have to ride out the next 17 weeks on auto-pilot until you get to January?

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

No, not broken, just different.

It mirrors the real Prem League - after the window shuts you are stuck with your world beaters/donkeys until January - same in UFPL.

skip
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by skip »

Agreed: not broken, just a different way of managing than we're used to in other games where transfers mean everyone brings in the popular players. Planning ahead, and squad diversity will pay off.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

skip wrote:Agreed: not broken, just a different way of managing than we're used to in other games where transfers mean everyone brings in the popular players. Planning ahead, and squad diversity will pay off.
Having loan agreements that have a better chance of being profitable should keep you on edge more and make the game more fun in between the transfer windows, as your rivals could be usurping you at any moment, (and you likewise with them), due to cheeky little moves in the loan market, that help gain further points on top of the high points you get from having a well balanced squad.

Remember, a profitable loan agreement system still won't cover you fully for not planning ahead and having poor squad diversity, since you have a squad of 25 and you would only be looking to loan a handful of players at once, so therefore a better loan system means that we get a fully all-encompassing game where you have to plan long term and short term in order to be the best fantasy manager.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by reds363 »

My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Striker »

reds363 wrote:My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.
An expensive injured player is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need several other players injured at the same time. Obviously if you have several expensive players injured loans are essential. There's an interesting trade off between different lengths of loans. As the apparent better value for the longer loans means that you are locked in unless you are prepared to subsequently write of some of the cost.

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Billy Bongo
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Billy Bongo »

All seems irrelevant will the extra transfers we get, 15 in first 3 weeks. It's got no real heart this game, doesn't seem to know what it's about, just betwix and between

Football Hero
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

Striker wrote:
reds363 wrote:My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.
An expensive injured player is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need several other players injured at the same time. Obviously if you have several expensive players injured loans are essential. There's an interesting trade off between different lengths of loans. As the apparent better value for the longer loans means that you are locked in unless you are prepared to subsequently write of some of the cost.
So basically you never want to be making any emergency loans and shouldn't plan for any, since the only times when it might be slightly profitable is when you've suffered injuries, and the injuries in themselves hurt you very badly, with the loans just mitigating some of that pain but not all.

Doesn't seem like a particularly good system or game mechanic to me.
Last edited by Football Hero on 26 Aug 2014, 13:07, edited 2 times in total.

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The Catman
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

Football Hero wrote:
Striker wrote:
reds363 wrote:My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.
An expensive injured player is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need several other players injured at the same time. Obviously if you have several expensive players injured loans are essential. There's an interesting trade off between different lengths of loans. As the apparent better value for the longer loans means that you are locked in unless you are prepared to subsequently write of some of the cost.
So basically you never want to be making any emergency loans and shouldn't plan for any, since the only times when it might be slightly profitable is when you've suffered injuries, and the injuries in themselves hurt you very badly, with the loans just mitigating some of that pain but not all.

Doesn't seem like a particularly good system or game mecanic to me.
Almost, but it is there an option, just not a particularily cheap one points wise, I'm definitely regarding it as a last resort, but if last season you had Suarez and Aguero and they both got injured in September then at least you would be able to do something about it.

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Billy Bongo
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Billy Bongo »

I've never viewed the loans as injury cover. You've such large squad as to never need cover. I see them as pure punts for short term cap choices

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The Catman
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

Billy Bongo wrote:I've never viewed the loans as injury cover. You've such large squad as to never need cover. I see them as pure punts for short term cap choices
Interesting. Seeing as your well above me we'll see how it goes.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Striker »

Football Hero wrote:
Striker wrote:
reds363 wrote:My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.
An expensive injured player is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need several other players injured at the same time. Obviously if you have several expensive players injured loans are essential. There's an interesting trade off between different lengths of loans. As the apparent better value for the longer loans means that you are locked in unless you are prepared to subsequently write of some of the cost.
So basically you never want to be making any emergency loans and shouldn't plan for any, since the only times when it might be slightly profitable is when you've suffered injuries, and the injuries in themselves hurt you very badly, with the loans just mitigating some of that pain but not all.
No. What you are missing is that most managers will over the long period between transfer windows get several injuries. Depending on how many you have and who they are, there will sometimes be a good case for making transfers. But one should exercise caution. You are certainly correct in suggesting that one shouldn't plan for loans in advance of the unknown future injuries. As regards to mitigating the pain, that's a good thing as most managers will be suffering at some stage. So if you successfully mitigate - bingo!

You seem determined to be very negative even before you have really got into the game.

Football Hero
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

Striker wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
Striker wrote:
reds363 wrote:My thoughts are it's only for when you have expensive players out injured.
An expensive injured player is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need several other players injured at the same time. Obviously if you have several expensive players injured loans are essential. There's an interesting trade off between different lengths of loans. As the apparent better value for the longer loans means that you are locked in unless you are prepared to subsequently write of some of the cost.
So basically you never want to be making any emergency loans and shouldn't plan for any, since the only times when it might be slightly profitable is when you've suffered injuries, and the injuries in themselves hurt you very badly, with the loans just mitigating some of that pain but not all.
No. What you are missing is that most managers will over the long period between transfer windows get several injuries. Depending on how many you have and who they are, there will sometimes be a good case for making transfers. But one should exercise caution. You are certainly correct in suggesting that one shouldn't plan for loans in advance of the unknown future injuries. As regards to mitigating the pain, that's a good thing as most managers will be suffering at some stage. So if you successfully mitigate - bingo!

You seem determined to be very negative even before you have really got into the game.
I've paid a fiver and UFPL have already messed up the bonus points in my opinion, (dishing out defensive BP's FAR more readily than attacking BP's, as well as inconsistencies on what constitutes a big chance in a match), so I think I have a right to be sceptical from what I have seen so far. I'm a paying customer and I feel as though I've been duped into playing a premium fantasy football game that is not nearly as complicated or well thought out as it actually sells itself to be.

Once GW4 comes, in the following 17 weeks you're almost hoping for an injury to a big gun so that you can loan someone out and mix things up for a bit, since as the rules stand right now, this game will probably become stale after a few weeks where from GW7+ you have a squad of 21 available players, (with four cheapies either dropped or injured by that point), so each week you just choose the best 18 options out of 21 and then place those 18 in match day order and substitute around that. If your rivals have lucked into choosing the better big guns for the season then you are stuffed until January, whereby you could be miles behind and unable to save things at that point.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong, but the omens are not looking good right now from what I have seen and experienced two weeks in.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Lugger »

I used loans last season on the beta to my advantage, no doubt they will come in handy this season also.

Basically if you are loaning in one player for one game week it is no different to taking a points hit on the fpl game, you get -4 points.

An unexpected player might hit form who you might want in for a good fixture, you don't necessarily have to have an injured player to take advantage of the loan system.

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Billy Bongo
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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Billy Bongo »

A loan for a injured player when you should have chosen your squad better seems pointless.

I used loans in beta simply up bring in a big player I didn't have who had fabulous fixtures, that's all.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Football Hero »

Lugger wrote:I used loans last season on the beta to my advantage, no doubt they will come in handy this season also.

Basically if you are loaning in one player for one game week it is no different to taking a points hit on the fpl game, you get -4 points.

An unexpected player might hit form who you might want in for a good fixture, you don't necessarily have to have an injured player to take advantage of the loan system.
No, because in the standard game you aren't forced to swap back after a week, so if you take a hit for someone and then keep him for three weeks in the standard game, it is -4 + 0 + 0 = -4 for the three week spell. In the Ultimate game that same move would cost you 9 points. You are correct if you mean that you also plan to swap your new transfer out for the week after, in which case it is the same in that specific instance, but that is rare that you do that, (at least it should be if you want to win).

For the standard game, in general points hits are negative expected value if you are only doing it for a one week only thing, (save for double gameweeks etc.), but points hits in the standard game can be positive expected value if you are getting a player in for multiple weeks due to there being no additional points penalty for keeping them longer than one week.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by gooberman »

Typical that one of my players - Debuchy gets injured just after the transfer window closes. I would imagine it could be a fairly long term injury too. Why couldn't this have happened last GW!! I could have swapped him for Chambers and upgraded another player.

Not sure what to do now. The emergency loan thing is a good idea but they have priced it wrongly in my opinion and made it too costly in terms of points lost. To lose 10pts to bring a replacement in for 4 weeks doesn't seem worth it. Even if the player you bring in gets a couple of clean sheets in that period, the overall gain isn't that much, and that is assuming the other defenders in your squad who would have played instead get no clean sheets. I think I may just have to make do without him.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

gooberman wrote:Typical that one of my players - Debuchy gets injured just after the transfer window closes. I would imagine it could be a fairly long term injury too. Why couldn't this have happened last GW!! I could have swapped him for Chambers and upgraded another player.

Not sure what to do now. The emergency loan thing is a good idea but they have priced it wrongly in my opinion and made it too costly in terms of points lost. To lose 10pts to bring a replacement in for 4 weeks doesn't seem worth it. Even if the player you bring in gets a couple of clean sheets in that period, the overall gain isn't that much, and that is assuming the other defenders in your squad who would have played instead get no clean sheets. I think I may just have to make do without him.
Similar here - took Chambers out for Debuchy :roll: Stuck with him now.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by gooberman »

The Catman wrote:
gooberman wrote:Typical that one of my players - Debuchy gets injured just after the transfer window closes. I would imagine it could be a fairly long term injury too. Why couldn't this have happened last GW!! I could have swapped him for Chambers and upgraded another player.

Not sure what to do now. The emergency loan thing is a good idea but they have priced it wrongly in my opinion and made it too costly in terms of points lost. To lose 10pts to bring a replacement in for 4 weeks doesn't seem worth it. Even if the player you bring in gets a couple of clean sheets in that period, the overall gain isn't that much, and that is assuming the other defenders in your squad who would have played instead get no clean sheets. I think I may just have to make do without him.
Similar here - took Chambers out for Debuchy :roll: Stuck with him now.
I just can't think of any situations were it would be worthwhile to take a 4pt hit just to bring in a player for 1 week only so it seems a bit of a pointless facility. It's been suggested somewhere else that it could be a worthwhile move to captain a big hitter who has a favourable fixture. However, you could argue that when you have players playing on separate match days, you have 2 and sometimes 3 chances to get some points from your captain anyway.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Calvin1979 »

What's everyone doing about Rooney? I'm tempted to bring in Pelle for GWs 8 and 9.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Bert. »

Calvin1979 wrote:What's everyone doing about Rooney?
Selling :roll:

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Calvin1979 »

Bert. wrote:
Calvin1979 wrote:What's everyone doing about Rooney?
Selling :roll:
Cracking contribution as always. Anyone with a valid opinion?

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by bspittles »

Calvin1979 wrote:
Bert. wrote:
Calvin1979 wrote:What's everyone doing about Rooney?
Selling :roll:
Cracking contribution as always. Anyone with a valid opinion?
I don't have him, but if I did I'd be looking at Welbeck or Costa depending on my squad make up.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Bert. »

Calvin1979 wrote:
Bert. wrote:
Calvin1979 wrote:What's everyone doing about Rooney?
Selling :roll:
Cracking contribution as always. Anyone with a valid opinion?
Well, Cally, no opinion at all would be more valuable than asking stupid questions that demand obvious answers as you're prone to doing.

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by The Catman »

Calvin1979 wrote:What's everyone doing about Rooney? I'm tempted to bring in Pelle for GWs 8 and 9.
Making do without having to use a loan - not sure how successful that will be though

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Re: Loan Agreement Headaches

Post by Calvin1979 »

Bert. wrote:Well, Cally, no opinion at all would be more valuable than asking stupid questions that demand obvious answers as you're prone to doing.
Are you actually playing UFPL?

Send my regards to Ernie.

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