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Are you religious?

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Are you religious

Absolutely. I live my life by the book (whichever book applies to my faith) and attend place of worship regularly
11
10%
I am, but only occasionally pray and/or attend place of worship
4
4%
I say I am, but I don't take the book literally and rarely attend place of worship but occasionally
5
5%
I say I am, but it has no influence on my life at all
2
2%
I'm ambivalent about it all, doesn't bother me either way
8
7%
I'm not, but not bothered religion exists
12
11%
I'm not, and religion should be abolished
13
12%
I'm not, I don't mind that people have faith and its useful to them... But religion should have no place in politics, news or education
55
50%
 
Total votes: 110

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crispybits
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

If it is it's one of the most committed ones I've seen in a long time (getting 2000 people to sign up for your FB group takes work!)

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murf
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by murf »

Dinosaurs and fossils are real. It is badgers that are made up. Has anyone ever seen a live one? There is a secret society descended from the Knights Templar who take dead cats, smash them up a bit and paint stripes on them before leaving them at the side of the road so we think we have seen a dead 'badger'. bustards.

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DrBunker
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

murf wrote:That has to be a spoof. Please......
Yeah, looks that way. The way that post was written sounds too crafted to be real.

That said there's a girl in my office who doesn't believe in them. Or cavemen.

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crispybits
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

I dunno - the reactions from the OP if you read far enough down seem less crafted and a bit more genuine.

When someone decides to ignore evidence in favour of faith in whatever gives them the warm and fuzzies then never underestimate their ability to come to completely ridiculous conclusions.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

And now for some genuinely sad news

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-isis-take ... eo-1489616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Islamic State (Isis) has published a video showing militants destroying ancient artefacts in a Mosul museum with sledgehammer and pickaxes.

IS fighters are seen unveiling old statues in the Ninawa museum dating back to the Assyrian empire and then dragging them down to the ground, where they fall into pieces.

Then, they are depicted pounding 3,000-year-old sculptures with hammers until they are completely shattered. Tens of militants are seen using ladders, hammers and drills to destroy every statue in the museum, including a winged-bull Assyrian protective deity dating back to the 7th century BC.
This is all future generations will have to view of these 8,000+ year old pieces of priceless history, because "God said so..."

Image

I can't use the word I want to to describe these idiots on this forum without getting myself a long ban....

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Zimmerman
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Zimmerman »

chap

What's the (flawed) rationale they are using for this?

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

If I could find the words I don't think they'd be offensive if I could, they'd just be an expression of how sad this is. I know human casualties are terrible but this is different; humans come and go but these artefacts are gone forever and as when the Taliban did the same in Petra I find it hard to comprehend. :cry:

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

Zimmerman wrote:chap

What's the (flawed) rationale they are using for this?
It says in the article: as in the bible they're not meant to worship false idols and as ppl used to worship the gods represented by these statues they were deemed blasphemous. It all fits a perfect, despicable logic.

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Zimmerman
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Zimmerman »

Just deluded craziness.

Their god is sooooo powerful and great, yet a few old relics are a threat to him?

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crispybits
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

DrBunker wrote:If I could find the words I don't think they'd be offensive if I could, they'd just be an expression of how sad this is. I know human casualties are terrible but this is different; humans come and go but these artefacts are gone forever and as when the Taliban did the same in Petra I find it hard to comprehend. :cry:
Killing people makes me sad. Destroying knowledge/history makes me furious.

I actually hesitated between posting this in here or posting in the modern life is rubbish thread, because this thread has changed from saying if you're religious and your views into "look at all the crazy destructive shit religions cause". Then I realised that we're just justifying why we think in our way about religion with constant real world examples. I'd love for a pro-religion person to come back in here and try and give us anything positive their religion does that is even remotely comparable to the loss of life, liberty, learning and opportunity we can post about on pretty much a daily basis if we chose to and tell us why it's a good idea to treat any religious view with even the smallest amount of respect... I just don't see it...

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by murf »

Zimmerman wrote:Just deluded craziness.

Their god is sooooo powerful and great, yet a few old relics are a threat to him?
Well if a two inch cartoon is.....

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by buu1333 »

Any one in to Buddhism ? I like that religion even though I don't follow it religiously

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

IIRC it isn't officially a religion, more a collection of ideas (I know, that's essentially what all religions are but I didn't make the distinction! :P ).

I'd always thought that if I had to choose from the obvious options I'd plump for Buddhism but I think that was just bc you didn't really have to do anything...

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

Can someone please explain to me how this works (epistomological question rather than a question about God directly):

http://rzim.org/just-thinking/is-our-fu ... ed-or-free
link wrote:Time is not co-eternal with God. But we also know that God was a thinking, feeling, doing Being before He created. Can you imagine a Being who is able to think in the absence of time? Of course not, but we worship a God who not only can do this, He does do this.
link wrote:Can you now see the enormity of the problem? The God whom we worship not only exists outside of time, He can think and act in the absence of time. We, however, can only think in time. Furthermore, we cannot even think what it is like to think in the absence of time, let alone do it.
How can the author claim to know something about which he admits he cannot even think/imagine?

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

Is this not the fundamental problem with religion as well as the basis of faith?

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by murf »

Surely God doesn't need to think as he knows everything.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by dead parrot »

crispybits wrote: I'd love for a pro-religion person to come back in here and try and give us anything positive their religion does that is even remotely comparable to the loss of life, liberty, learning and opportunity we can post about on pretty much a daily basis if we chose to and tell us why it's a good idea to treat any religious view with even the smallest amount of respect... I just don't see it...m
I am not pro-religion but......
Firstly a distinction should be drawn between religions and Christianity. To explain:
Using the definition of religion in which a religion involves the efforts of man seeking 'god' makes all world 'religions' different from Christianity in which the basis is the belief that God has taken the step of 'seeking' man via the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ.
This may seem semantics but this fundamental difference is one of the causes of many of the problems caused by religions. That is men taking action based on their own ideas which are often justified by referring to a god that they have invented. This has of course often, in history, happened also in the name of Christianity but in reality is a corrupted version based on men's ideas rather than on biblical christianity. And corrupted versions of Christianity exist, to varying extents over time, in such bodies as the Church of England and even more so in The Catholic church but in almost every christian organisation that has ever existed there have been problems where men have diverged from right behaviour due to their own failings. This is even documented in the bible new testament on many occasions where the early church suffers from corruptions and errors.

But to answer your question there are many examples of positive outcomes from the actions of christians. Some of them are evident in certain charities. Some in everyday life of individuals.
For examples look at the life saving attempts of many medical missionaries in current and past times. Often these are the result of the faith of individuals sacrificing comfortable living in the west to live in the third world. Sometimes similar actions are carried out by people having no such beliefs but that doesn't decry the actions of those whose motivation has a background of faith.
In history there are examples such as the abolition of the slave trade and other attempted improvements to lives of the poorer members of societies. There are many more negative examples done in the name of a 'god' but ten wrongs don't wipe out one right. It is necessary to analyse more closely those wrongs and rights and notice what the differences really are.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

dead parrot wrote:For examples look at the life saving attempts of many medical missionaries in current and past times. Often these are the result of the faith of individuals sacrificing comfortable living in the west to live in the third world. Sometimes similar actions are carried out by people having no such beliefs but that doesn't decry the actions of those whose motivation has a background of faith.
The difference being that religious individuals carrying out this sort of work do so in the hope of eternal life and togetherness with the lord rather than for purely altruistic reasons.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Zimmerman »

But they are doing it.

Whatever the motive, it is a good thing.

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Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

dead parrot wrote:
crispybits wrote: I'd love for a pro-religion person to come back in here and try and give us anything positive their religion does that is even remotely comparable to the loss of life, liberty, learning and opportunity we can post about on pretty much a daily basis if we chose to and tell us why it's a good idea to treat any religious view with even the smallest amount of respect... I just don't see it...m
I am not pro-religion but......
Firstly a distinction should be drawn between religions and Christianity. To explain:
Using the definition of religion in which a religion involves the efforts of man seeking 'god' makes all world 'religions' different from Christianity in which the basis is the belief that God has taken the step of 'seeking' man via the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ.
This may seem semantics but this fundamental difference is one of the causes of many of the problems caused by religions. That is men taking action based on their own ideas which are often justified by referring to a god that they have invented. This has of course often, in history, happened also in the name of Christianity but in reality is a corrupted version based on men's ideas rather than on biblical christianity. And corrupted versions of Christianity exist, to varying extents over time, in such bodies as the Church of England and even more so in The Catholic church but in almost every christian organisation that has ever existed there have been problems where men have diverged from right behaviour due to their own failings. This is even documented in the bible new testament on many occasions where the early church suffers from corruptions and errors.
Christianity IS a religion. I don't know what messed up semantics would place it in a separate category (and the "man seeking god vs god seeking man thing is complete codswallop, Krishna was the avatar of God come to Earth to seek out men, Mohammed was contacted by God, he didn't go looking for him, Joseph Smith was visited by angels, he didn't ask them to come, etc etc.) ALL religion, including Christianity of all forms, including "biblical Christianity" whatever the hell that is, is demonstrably man-made.
dead parrot wrote:But to answer your question there are many examples of positive outcomes from the actions of christians. Some of them are evident in certain charities. Some in everyday life of individuals.
For examples look at the life saving attempts of many medical missionaries in current and past times. Often these are the result of the faith of individuals sacrificing comfortable living in the west to live in the third world. Sometimes similar actions are carried out by people having no such beliefs but that doesn't decry the actions of those whose motivation has a background of faith.
In history there are examples such as the abolition of the slave trade and other attempted improvements to lives of the poorer members of societies. There are many more negative examples done in the name of a 'god' but ten wrongs don't wipe out one right. It is necessary to analyse more closely those wrongs and rights and notice what the differences really are.
Before reading ahead, remember my question was: give us anything positive their religion does that is even remotely comparable to the loss of life, liberty, etc

So charities and missionaries are your examples of good things religions do? Like the charities and missionaries who are right now sending bibles to nepal when the space in the cargo planes could be used for food, water and tents? (https://www.mnnonline.org/news/christia ... -in-nepal/) - that's a christian news source that includes taking 2000 bibles along with other aid - could that money have been better spent I wonder? Like when they did the exact same shitty bible relief for the Haiti earthquake sufferers?

I made that post asking that question at the end of February. Since then a 10 year old girl in Paraguay has been denied an abortion after being sexually abused by her father/step-father because religious reasoning in Paraguay means abortions are banned unless the woman's (girl's!!!) life is in immediate danger (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... d-abortion). Since then ISIS have killed god knows how many people (well into 4 figures) in the name of religious fundamentalism (http://rt.com/op-edge/264241-isis-samar ... yria-west/) - that's just one example of the daily death count. The Vatican has spat upon the civil rights of gay people by calling the Irish referendum a "defeat for humanity" (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... r-humanity).

These are just a small handful of things right off the top of my head and the key difference between this and your doctors example is that this is specifically being done in the name of religion. I haven't even googled the journalists and bloggers being given lashes and put to death in Saudi Arabia for daring to be atheist or criticise Islam, I haven't even touched on the numbers of gay kids that will have committed suicide because religiously motivated bigotry is unbearable, I haven't even bothered to detail the loss of life by the religiously motivated homophobia or fundamentalism rife in areas of Africa right now. And your examples is "well they send a few doctors and make people's lives a bit happier"?

PS the slave trade had many people arguing for scriptural reasons why slavery was fine - religion doesn't get to claim that one, it was on BOTH sides

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Vid »

murf wrote:Surely God doesn't need to think as he knows everything.
A cosmic teenager?

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by DrBunker »

Zimmerman wrote:But they are doing it.

Whatever the motive, it is a good thing.
Of course, and it would be disingenuous to suggest I was staying anything to the contrary. I was just making the point that if the best example of positive religion is someone doing something to save their soul it's a weak argument.

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Carlos Kickaball
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

I'm not religious but this thread seems to have descended into almost bigoted religion bashing. I'm actually really surprised reading some of it [I now see some of it has been deleted, but I'll make my point for the benefit of the thread and those reading it].

Wars, killings, and injustices, that happened in history in the name of religious belief would likely still been emulated in a purely secular world. Cultures would have violent political struggles, murders, bigots, denial of counterintuitive views and differing beliefs on justice whether you had god or not, these are expressions of human nature or perhaps the will to power.

People in here seem very knowledgable on the appalling things done in the name of religion, but somehow quite dismissive or ignorant of all the positives. Religion really only exists as part of human culture, so it's no surprise that it is associated with some of the most heinous crimes, bigotry, suppression of knowledge, corruption, but also some of the most generous acts, drives for equality, high culture, education and philosophy. I am amazed that it has not occurred to people that the actions inspired by and done in the name of religion are not all good, or all bad, but on the whole representative of humanity.

The idea that religious people would only do good to save their souls is a rather mean spirited catch-22. It seems to follow that anything bad done by a religious person shows that religious people are bad, but that anything good done by a religious person must show that they are just selfish. Not only that but it singles out religious people claiming their altruism is not true altruism. Quite a strange claim and I would have thought anyone sophisticated enough to construct such an argument would realise that it's possible to say most acts of altruism are undertaken really for the benefit of the individual doing them in some way, and that the idea of a true altruistic act is philosophically complicated in itself.
Last edited by Carlos Kickaball on 02 Jun 2015, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by crispybits »

The point CK, at least with the most recent bit, is that it is far, far, FAR too easy to point to things specifically and solely motivated by religious belief having a detrimental effect on our world. I asked the question about give some examples of religion doing good to try and offer the way in for someone to point out specific examples of religion currently doing good things. I got irrelevance in reply (within the context of the good things at least trying to be comparable to the bad things). It's like you listing all the bad things about FIFA corruption over the last decade (assuming that many more of the facts were already public) and me responding by saying "well yeah but some people are made happier by playing football and they built a pitch in my village so..."

As for the bigoted - I'll accept that I am bigoted against religion, but I am not closed-minded about it. If someone can show me examples of it doing real good in this world that is even comparable with the level of harm it does then I will change my mind. Similarly I am bigoted against racism, is that a bad thing? I am bigoted against homophobia, is that a bad thing? I am bigoted against paedophilia, is that a bad thing? Being a bigot is only an insult if you can show that that specific bigotry does harm, otherwise it's merely a descriptor. Show me the harm I'm doing by pointing out all the damage religion is doing, right now, to people all over the world...

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Re: Are you religious?

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Carlos Kickaball wrote:Quite a strange claim and I would have thought anyone sophisticated enough to construct such an argument would realise that it's possibly to say most acts of altruism are undertaken really for the benefit of the individual doing them in some way, and that the idea of a true altruistic act is philosophically complicated in itself.
Richard Dawkins?

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Carlos Kickaball
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Lots of good things have happened as a result of religion. It has inspired, influenced, or just outright given us a vast swathe of our literature, music, law, and culture in general, either through direct influence or in it's expression and thoughts on religion. For example we obviously wouldn't have the same Kierkegaard without religion, but we wouldn't have the same Nietzsche either. It's also been central in many drives to give education, alleviate poverty, produce equality.

You might ask me which of these actions make up for the deaths of people, but the simple answer is they don't [or will not in many people's opinions], and in that sense humanity can never make up for it's own failings. That's not the fault of religion, that's just the nature of humanity. Imagine if an alien race landed on earth and listed all the bad acts done by humans, you'd struggle to give concrete examples of things that balance them out.

I'll give you an example [the kind of thing you'd have as a cartoon to show how faulty I think anti religious prejudice is]...

1. Religious people build temples.
2. Those that dislike religion claim that religion has given us nothing.
3. Other religious people destroy a historic temple or religious artefact.
4. Those that dislike religion claim this shows that religious people are uncultured and destroying our heritage.

You see why I think this is somehow faulty...
Last edited by Carlos Kickaball on 02 Jun 2015, 20:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Vid »

You've heard of the "dark ages" CK? Global stagnation for 1500 years caused by religion.

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Carlos Kickaball
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Re: Are you religious?

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

That seems a rather brief account of the dark ages. See what I said about the acts of religion being expressions of human nature.

I don't think religion isn't the root cause of morality and culture and without religion we would have neither, but it's not the root cause of deficiencies in these things either, both would have happened in some form anyway and religion has just been along on the ride.

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by dead parrot »

DrBunker wrote:
dead parrot wrote:For examples look at the life saving attempts of many medical missionaries in current and past times. Often these are the result of the faith of individuals sacrificing comfortable living in the west to live in the third world. Sometimes similar actions are carried out by people having no such beliefs but that doesn't decry the actions of those whose motivation has a background of faith.
The difference being that religious individuals carrying out this sort of work do so in the hope of eternal life and togetherness with the lord rather than for purely altruistic reasons.

really?
Have you asked any or all of them?
Is it possible that some are repeating the example of early followers of the christian church who said "we love because he first loved us"?

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Re: Are you religious?

Post by dead parrot »

CK while I don't agree with everything you have said, it is good to see someone taking a balanced and well informed stance and saying a lot of common sense

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