To see less ads Register or Login ----- Daily Fantasy Sports games 18+

Safe Standing

A forum for discussion on Football matters not involving fantasy issues.
User avatar
Giggs11
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 3340
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 22:01
Location: But Gerrard effed it up,again!! Gerrard effed it up, again!!!

Safe Standing

Post by Giggs11 »

Red Eye wrote:
blahblah wrote:The whole thing was a Perfect Storm, with nearly element of a disaster being present. Most of these have have been addressed since; and all those who want to bring back terracing should remember this was the main reason all-seaters were introduced.
'Terracing' is not comparable with safe standing. The emotion surrounding Hillsborough is understandable but it should not prevent us having a reasoned debate about safe standing.
Exactly.

Safe standing could be easily accomplished these days with a limit on the areas reserved for standing and football grounds with atmosphere would soon follow. Never again should so many thousands be forced into such a small area and to infer some want a return to this is absurd. All of the 'new' footy fans could still be satisfied with their seats and packed lunches.

Blazz and the MP's who helped make the decision, watching footy on the telly on the odd occasion, really have no place in any such discussion anyway.

User avatar
murf
FISO Viscount
Posts: 109448
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:28
Location: here
FS Record: Once led TFF. Very briefly.
Contact:

Re: 1989 Hillsborough disaster

Post by murf »

I agree but I don't think a Hillsborough thread is the right place to discuss bring back any form of standing.

Could always start a new thread :D

User avatar
Giggs11
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 3340
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 22:01
Location: But Gerrard effed it up,again!! Gerrard effed it up, again!!!

Re: 1989 Hillsborough disaster

Post by Giggs11 »

Aye, fair point.

User avatar
blahblah
FISO Viscount
Posts: 108494
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:46
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.

Re: 1989 Hillsborough disaster

Post by blahblah »

Red Eye wrote:
blahblah wrote:The whole thing was a Perfect Storm, with nearly element of a disaster being present. Most of these have have been addressed since; and all those who want to bring back terracing should remember this was the main reason all-seaters were introduced.
'Terracing' is not comparable with safe standing. The emotion surrounding Hillsborough is understandable but it should not prevent us having a reasoned debate about safe standing.
But I would use this as reason not to have "safe" standing\terracing, whatever is supposed to be safe about them. It is a recipe for another disaster imho.

User avatar
murf
FISO Viscount
Posts: 109448
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:28
Location: here
FS Record: Once led TFF. Very briefly.
Contact:

Re: 1989 Hillsborough disaster

Post by murf »

murf wrote:I don't think a Hillsborough thread is the right place to discuss bring back any form of standing.

Could always start a new thread :D

User avatar
Karrde
Sir Stormtrooper
Posts: 19895
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:28
Location: Deciding what to BBQ
FS Record: Profitable
Contact:

Re: 1989 Hillsborough disaster

Post by Karrde »

murf wrote:
murf wrote:Could always start a new thread :D
Sorted :D

User avatar
Moist von Lipwig
FISO Knight
Posts: 18227
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 16:08
Location: The Eyrie
FS Record: FPL Spring 16 Winner 2010-11. Murfs F1 Predictions 2012 Winner. Pick Quick 2012-13 Winner. SP4s Predictions League A & Champions League

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Moist von Lipwig »

Theres a european league that has safe standing isn't there? Germany?

User avatar
threeyardmiss
Dumbledore
Posts: 5245
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:33
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by threeyardmiss »

Have I missed something glaringly obvious or would it not be really simple to continue to sell a set amount of tickets in the same way but rather than a seat, you have an allocated space with lines drawn on the floor? Surely the main risk of no seats is overcrowding, which would be impossible if you knew how many spaces you had?

User avatar
paisleypark
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 3515
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:32
Location: Lancashire

Re: Safe Standing

Post by paisleypark »

Going back to the first time I went to Anfield as a lad we used to go in the Paddock. This was a narrow area running down the 2 touchlines in front of the side stands and made for a great view in relative safety compared to the Kop.
If clubs were allowed to take out the first 10 rows of seats then this would allow a standing area all around the ground - separated from the seats and with modern safety standards.
Even rock venues have standing and seats these days and manage them extremely well.
With pre-sold tickets there should be no overcrowding or danger.

User avatar
blahblah
FISO Viscount
Posts: 108494
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:46
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.

Re: Safe Standing

Post by blahblah »

threeyardmiss wrote:Have I missed something glaringly obvious or would it not be really simple to continue to sell a set amount of tickets in the same way but rather than a seat, you have an allocated space with lines drawn on the floor? Surely the main risk of no seats is overcrowding, which would be impossible if you knew how many spaces you had?
You are kidding? :?

User avatar
Karrde
Sir Stormtrooper
Posts: 19895
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:28
Location: Deciding what to BBQ
FS Record: Profitable
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Karrde »

I think that would work in principle. 5000 dots on the floor as a rough guide for standing, 5000 tickets. you dont have to stick to a dot, but you do know that there will be an appropriate number of people in there.

User avatar
Red Eye
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 4413
Joined: 07 May 2006, 07:12
Location: Republic of Mancunia

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Red Eye »

I believe the German ones are basically seats but with higher rails in front that allow for something to hold on to if standing. I think the Champions League requires all-seater, so they put them up and stand for league games but put them down to sit in the Champions League. You can't have any kind of crowd surge with them so don't see the problem - clubs should just have a choice.

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/

User avatar
blahblah
FISO Viscount
Posts: 108494
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:46
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.

Re: Safe Standing

Post by blahblah »

Karrde wrote:I think that would work in principle. 5000 dots on the floor as a rough guide for standing, 5000 tickets. you dont have to stick to a dot, but you do know that there will be an appropriate number of people in there.
Just imagine the "I paid for this dot" type rows\fights. :lol:

stuboy
Dumbledore
Posts: 5457
Joined: 01 Sep 2010, 12:25
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Safe Standing

Post by stuboy »

If you can stand at concerts, you can stand at football. Mosh pits would be a more dangerous place than a standing area at football.

Remember, Hillsborough was a massive tragedy due to overcrowding + steel metal fencing. Ensure no such barricades are in place and a standing area is fine.

User avatar
threeyardmiss
Dumbledore
Posts: 5245
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:33
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by threeyardmiss »

blahblah wrote:
threeyardmiss wrote:Have I missed something glaringly obvious or would it not be really simple to continue to sell a set amount of tickets in the same way but rather than a seat, you have an allocated space with lines drawn on the floor? Surely the main risk of no seats is overcrowding, which would be impossible if you knew how many spaces you had?
You are kidding? :?
No. If it works for seats then why can't it work for spaces? It is the exact same system except when you get to where you're looking for you stand and don't sit.

User avatar
blahblah
FISO Viscount
Posts: 108494
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:46
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.

Re: Safe Standing

Post by blahblah »

Shame they didn't have a combined Mods and Rockers concert :lol:

I'm not sure the German example would work here, and is little more than allowing standing in the stands - rather than terracing, or an open area.

User avatar
Karrde
Sir Stormtrooper
Posts: 19895
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:28
Location: Deciding what to BBQ
FS Record: Profitable
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Karrde »

blahblah wrote:
Karrde wrote:I think that would work in principle. 5000 dots on the floor as a rough guide for standing, 5000 tickets. you dont have to stick to a dot, but you do know that there will be an appropriate number of people in there.
Just imagine the "I paid for this dot" type rows\fights. :lol:
Fnar Fnar.

You dont get an assigned dot, you just get the same number of tickets as dots... so you know youre never in a place that has too many people in :D I wouldnt bother with the dots myself, but it still seems a vaild way of doing it to me.

User avatar
threeyardmiss
Dumbledore
Posts: 5245
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:33
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by threeyardmiss »

Karrde wrote: You dont get an assigned dot, you just get the same number of tickets as dots... so you know youre never in a place that has too many people in :D I wouldnt bother with the dots myself, but it still seems a vaild way of doing it to me.
The only problem with this is that people will inevitably crowd to the front. People accept their seat when allocated one, I think they would accept their 'space' when allocated one too.

User avatar
Red Eye
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 4413
Joined: 07 May 2006, 07:12
Location: Republic of Mancunia

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Red Eye »

blahblah wrote:I'm not sure the German example would work here....
I don't see why not. :?
blahblah wrote:...and is little more than allowing standing in the stands - rather than terracing, or an open area.
Exactly, not much difference so whats the problem? Obviously if you stand in seated areas as they are now you could potentially fall or be pushed over into the row in front which, whilst not life threatening, isn't safe. So you put a barrier in between every row and problem solved.

Open terraced areas like we used to have are a different matter and I'm not sure comparisons with things like concerts are valid because football fan behaviour is something else. And obviously those sections would be redundant if the stadium was used for games covered by UEFA all-seater rules.

User avatar
Darbyand
FISO Knight
Posts: 10673
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:45
Location: Central Lancs
FS Record: TFF World Cup 2014: 6th. TFF: 2020: 30th. 2022 32nd + 54th. Eggs PL 1st 2022. Tenners: 3rd 2019, 2nd 2020, 1st 2022.
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Darbyand »

Pretty good round-up on the topic here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25269939" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think we'll see some elements of this, probably rail-seating, at a Premier League game within 5 years. The German example is just too big and too similar a case study to ignore.

User avatar
Red Eye
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 4413
Joined: 07 May 2006, 07:12
Location: Republic of Mancunia

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Red Eye »

Interesting that 'most' Football League clubs have voted in favour of safe standing...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26079503

Would love to see these introduced to help with the atmosphere inside grounds and hopefully provide a cheaper ticket option.

User avatar
Darbyand
FISO Knight
Posts: 10673
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:45
Location: Central Lancs
FS Record: TFF World Cup 2014: 6th. TFF: 2020: 30th. 2022 32nd + 54th. Eggs PL 1st 2022. Tenners: 3rd 2019, 2nd 2020, 1st 2022.
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Darbyand »

This is starting to move quickly now:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... boost.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Bristol City have already installed them at Ashton Gate.

User avatar
foxinthebox2001
Dumbledore
Posts: 7334
Joined: 19 Aug 2009, 13:02
Location: The corridor of uncertainty
FS Record: Fiso Cricket - The Limited Overs Game winner 2014

Re: Safe Standing

Post by foxinthebox2001 »

If you are switching from seats to standing in your favourite area of the ground its not unreasonable to expect to pay less.
Unless the club are confident that the reduction in prices will be covered by an increase in attendance, in that same section most will not be over keen.
Rough estimate is if the tickets are reduced by 30%, to cover that loss in revenue it would need a 20% increase in attendance.
At the Emirates, in the upper/lower tiers the seats are very compact.
Get sat next a chap who likes his gravy on both sides and it get it can get like sardines, particularly at this time of year when everyone is wearing winter outer garments.
Even at half time when most stand to stretch their legs its not exactly roomy.
I would suggest its extremely difficult to envisage safely increasing the standing attendance by as much as 20% in the areas I have sat, even in our modern stadium.
Maybe in Germany where the best examples are the changeable seats money isn't the main issue.

User avatar
Darbyand
FISO Knight
Posts: 10673
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:45
Location: Central Lancs
FS Record: TFF World Cup 2014: 6th. TFF: 2020: 30th. 2022 32nd + 54th. Eggs PL 1st 2022. Tenners: 3rd 2019, 2nd 2020, 1st 2022.
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Darbyand »

Think I read that at United at least, ticket revenue now forms about 9% of total revenue. I assume smaller clubs like Arsenal are aiming to get there too :wink: Taking a small hit on that with even more non match day revenues coming in all the time would be a small price to pay to regenerate the fan base (football stadiums are full of fat 30+ year old men as they are the only ones tha can afford it) and improve the atmosphere.

Not to mention that only a small fraction of clubs are able to regularly sell tickets for most or all their home games. Many are played in front of swathes of empty seats so they might as well be filled by paying customers.

aj2k77
Treebeard
Posts: 164
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 19:27

Re: Safe Standing

Post by aj2k77 »

Standing isn't dangerous.

Standing in a crammed metal pen in front of a 10ft high fence is very dangerous.

The way police and at times football supporters in the 80's behaved was disgraceful and i'd like to think we've had 20 years to learn our lessons and have.

User avatar
foxinthebox2001
Dumbledore
Posts: 7334
Joined: 19 Aug 2009, 13:02
Location: The corridor of uncertainty
FS Record: Fiso Cricket - The Limited Overs Game winner 2014

Re: Safe Standing

Post by foxinthebox2001 »

Giving the order to open 2 wide gates just as a game is kicking off which allows hundreds of supporters to surge into standing areas with very little thought of stewardship is even more dangerous.

aj2k77
Treebeard
Posts: 164
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 19:27

Re: Safe Standing

Post by aj2k77 »

foxinthebox2001 wrote:Giving the order to open 2 wide gates just as a game is kicking off which allows hundreds of supporters to surge into standing areas with very little thought of stewardship is even more dangerous.

Criminal.

The whole standing is dangerous concept is a laughable smokescreen and was another attempt to pass the buck and the blame off of an authority that treated football fans with contempt and a police force that treated them like criminals.

I find it unbelievable that some people are still spouting the standing is dangerous mantra and it hasn't moved onto some other more logical reason why we aren't allowed to stand.

Standing has gone on every weekend at football matches for the past 25 years btw and no tragedies. How come? I thought standing was dangerous? Thousands and thousands of games and no fatalities.

User avatar
Red Eye
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 4413
Joined: 07 May 2006, 07:12
Location: Republic of Mancunia

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Red Eye »

aj2k77 wrote:Standing isn't dangerous.

Standing in a crammed metal pen in front of a 10ft high fence is very dangerous.

The way police and at times football supporters in the 80's behaved was disgraceful and i'd like to think we've had 20 years to learn our lessons and have.
Exactly right. Don't want to sound harsh but I'm struggling to see how the Hillsborough families should have any kind of say on this - views such as 'there is no such thing as safe standing' and that rail seats are a 'backward step' are grounded only in the understandable emotion of what happened, not in the available evidence which supports the modern version of standing, which bears no relation to what terracing used to be like.

If Liverpool don't want to install them then let that be their choice. But there is no good reason why clubs should not be free to choose. I for one want to see it happen and not in 5-10 years time.

User avatar
paisleypark
Grumpy Old Man
Posts: 3515
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:32
Location: Lancashire

Re: Safe Standing

Post by paisleypark »

As a Liverpool supporter I have said previously that I would welcome safe standing.
It can be achieved and many LFC supporters would welcome it. The Hillsborough tragedy was caused by bad policing and crowd management but we have moved on and learned lessons so I would suggest that Liverpool wouldn't be the first club to re-introduce standing but once it is established they may well follow.
We have to learn from the past not be held back by it.

User avatar
Darbyand
FISO Knight
Posts: 10673
Joined: 13 Oct 2005, 18:45
Location: Central Lancs
FS Record: TFF World Cup 2014: 6th. TFF: 2020: 30th. 2022 32nd + 54th. Eggs PL 1st 2022. Tenners: 3rd 2019, 2nd 2020, 1st 2022.
Contact:

Re: Safe Standing

Post by Darbyand »

nice post pp.

A frustration whenever I've heard it debated is that they always bring out a Hillsborough victim family member and it's immediately skewed in an emotion rather than evidence based way.

For example, I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty...but if someone killed a member of my family, I'd want them dead, preferably by my own hand....that's why we have society, communality of decision making etc to strip out that emotion and try to do the best for everybody.

View Latest: 1 Day View Your posts
Post Reply

Return to “Football Talk & Events”