How good was Scholes

[Zimmerman]

Spurred on by this (in the United thread) but also a growing tide of appreciation via social media and the mainstream press... how good was Scholes?

We see it all the time with players, that only afterwards do we realise how good they were... but similarly we can build them up to maybe better than they actually were. Pirlo is someone who springs to mind (undoubtedly an amazing, top class player... but in the twighlight of his career he’d become almost god like - not sure he was ‘that’ good. It just became fashionable to appreciate his underrated style.

Used in the slang context of acting pathetically over-the-top rather than becoming liquefied under heat or more tender / loving!!!

Mainly aimed at the tourist fans on social media that rarely get to a game rather than the majority of supporters that get to games and are more level headed. The difference is that the former are the likes that think Beckham was the best of the Class of 92 whereas the latter know that Scholes was by far the best midfielder United and England has had for a number of generations (Gazza and Robson being his nearest challengers not Gerrard and Lampard ).

So what of Scholes? Has he improved like a fine wine that has been put in a cellar somewhere? Or is he worthy of his new found regard and adulation?

Was he the greatest player of his generation?
Or one of Uniteds best ever?

He was top class
He was consistent
He had the all round game
He had longevity

But was he the absolute elite player he’s now regarded as?

Any united fans care to rank him amongst Uniteds other players?

He obviously wasn’t accommodated under various England managers (not his fault... and definitely a case of mismanagement... but by the same token various managers failed to break up the Lampard and Gerrard partnership (despite it not being effective for the team; but their league performances made them undroppable for the national team. They obviously didn’t think the same of Scholes.

Even for Fergie/United;
Only twice did he start 30 or more league games.
Only twice (in a 19 year career) did he manage double figures for league goals
Only 3 times did he make 5 or more assists in a season

Even looking at his 10 year peak period:
Average 27 league starts, 8 goals and 4 assists

On the one hand he was a key player for THE most dominate team for almost 20 years

On the other... despite their dominance as the creative and offensive midfielder supported and supporting the likes of Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, Van Nistelrooy, Cole and Yorke... he stats aren’t ‘that’ impressive are they?

If so good, why didn’t he always play for fergie (in a generation when there wasn’t the same levels of rotation etc)?

[thebillfella]

Well you know my view!!!

Could land a 60 yard pass on a sixpence, rarely gave the ball away, don't recall him ever being dispossessed, had unparalleled vision and was the player who controlled the game from the middle of the park like few others I've seen in the flesh (Zidane and Pirlo being his nearest rivals).

Look at the number of world class ex-pros who name him as the best player they ever played against. He is frequently cited as an inspiration at Barcelona’s La Masia academy. Fergie named him as 1 of only 4 truly world-class players he managed during all his time at United. His playing time was curtailed not by being dropped but by being rested or injured.

One of the biggest travesties in English football history is seeing him moved out to the LHS for England to accommodate both Gerrard and Lampard in the middle when in fact they should both have been competing against each other for the second spot alongside Scholes (and arguably with Carrick behind them and 1 up top).

Stats are like bikinis; they reveal a lot but they don't reveal everything. The assister of the assister doesn't always get the credit they deserve, especially when they are just happy to have a shower and go home afterwards rather than promote themselves and products for mullions of pounds. Sometimes you don't truly realise how good somebody is until they are gone.

[S_sutton87]

I remember xavi saying he was the greatest player he ever played against

Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk

[S_sutton87]

Have a read of some of these

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footb ... t-him.html

[murf]

Better than he was regarded by many and obviously very talented but not the genius some claim as he was almost 'shy' on the pitch, never really stamped his authority on anything or became the spark when needed / on big occasions etc.

I'd rather have him overall than the flashier Beckham, Gazza etc (but I'd bring them on when the chips were down) but not ahead of someone skilled AND imposing like Gerrard.

[Zimmerman]

And yet he only once made the top 20-30 players nominated for the Ballon d’Or (joint 28th in 2000).

[Vid]

My first thought about him - thug!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Scho ... discipline

Scholes received frequent criticism for his discipline, particularly regarding his tackling, which was questioned as frequently inept by multiple pundits, fans and Scholes himself.[97][98] In addition, the potential for malicious intent in some of his tackles has been raised;[99] it has been suggested that he has escaped greater censure due to the admiration that many have for the rest of his game.[100]

Scholes has been criticised for his disciplinary record, amassing the fifth-most yellow cards in Premier League history with 97, and also receiving four red cards.[2][101] He has also been booked 32 times in the Champions League, surpassed only by Sergio Ramos.[101][102] Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger criticised Scholes' tackling, stating, "For me he was not a fair player. There's a little bit of a darker side in him, sometimes, that I did not like. I respect him highly as a quality player but I did not like some things he did on the football pitch."[103] Scholes said in a BBC Radio 5 Live interview that he was not a bad tackler, but that, "If someone got me early in the game, it was always in the back of my mind that I needed to get them back", and suggested that the bookings he received towards the end of his career were influenced by his reputation.

[forestfan]

I'd rather have him overall than the flashier Beckham, Gazza etc (but I'd bring them on when the chips were down) but not ahead of someone skilled AND imposing like Gerrard.

Was Beckham really “flashy” (as a player, as opposed to a celebrity)? OK, he scored the odd spectacular goal, but other than that, his game was about working hard, doing the basics and putting the ball in the right place for his strikers. He certainly wasn’t a flicks and tricks or running past people type of player.

[thebillfella]

Better than he was regarded by many and obviously very talented but not the genius some claim as he was almost 'shy' on the pitch, never really stamped his authority on anything or became the spark when needed / on big occasions etc.

I'd rather have him overall than the flashier Beckham, Gazza etc (but I'd bring them on when the chips were down) but not ahead of someone skilled AND imposing like Gerrard.

The top ex-pros appear to all beg to differ with you murf.

Scholes probably didn't need to be the one to stamp his authority on a game as much (Keane did that best when required anyway) as he wasn't surrounded with as much shite as Gerrard was at the time, but Gerrard was no way as skilled as Scholes when it came to controlling a game or passing/shooting skills (although he was of course very good) IMO.

Gerrard was a better engine room; Scholes was a better cultured libero / quarterback - so maybe space for both (at Lampards expense!).

Gerrard was a better tackler as well Vid!!!

[murf]

Explain the Ballon d'or stat then. Pros and writers only like him with hindsight?

[thebillfella]

Who knows?

Why did Messi win the Balon D'Or this year rather than Van Dijk?

Pirlo didn't make the UEFA Team of the Year that many times - was that because he wasn't very good?

Why have Aguero and David Silva only been in the PFA Team of the Year once (or maybe twice?) in total?

Who votes for Balon D'Or anyway. Thought it was just international journalists and national team managers and captains - so not a truly professionally informed representative electorate?

[thebillfella]

The comparison is very subjective of course, which is why the comments from the tops pros who did get into the UEFA Team of the Years more than anyone else are so telling - this story from Cristiano Ronaldo says it all. ‘Scholes took the ball and pointed to a tree which was about 50m from where we were standing. He said, I’m going to hit it in one shot. He kicked and hit the tree. He asked me to do the same; I kicked about 10 times, but still couldn’t hit it, with that accuracy. He smiled and left.’ Legend.

Thierry Henry said: "I can’t understand why Scholes has never won the player of the year award. He should have won it long ago. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t seek the limelight like some of the other ‘stars’."

This is starting to become a "who was better, Scholes or Gerrard?" debate now - quite frankly they were both brilliant and I would have had them both in my midfield if picking an all time Prem XI. However, if it was worldwide, Gerrard would have to make way for Zidane

[Archy]

I used to really rate Paul Scholes, his ability to play the perfect pass at the right time and dictate the tempo of a game.

BUT I also remember him being a horrendous tackler, and the quotes from Vid show this wasn’t just due to being bad at it (I used to write off his terrible tackling as being largely ‘innocent’ and just badly timed), but now it seems Scholes himself has admitted he was actually quite malicious.

The stats quoted also don’t paint a particularly flattering picture. His goal scoring and creative stats were nothing out of the ordinary, whilst his disciplinary stats show he was one of the worst offenders of his generation.

For me, therefore, I used to really rate him, but, looking back, and considering the stats, I don’t think he did enough to elevate himself to being a true great.

(That said, I’d still have rather had him in my England team than Gerrard But that’s another story )

[Zimmerman]

Who knows?

Why did Messi win the Balon D'Or this year rather than Van Dijk?

Pirlo didn't make the UEFA Team of the Year that many times - was that because he wasn't very good?

Why have Aguero and David Silva only been in the PFA Team of the Year once (or maybe twice?) in total?

Who votes for Balon D'Or anyway. Thought it was just international journalists and national team managers and captains - so not a truly professionally informed representative electorate?

Scholes got in the PFA team of the year twice (never voted Player of the year though). That’s voted for by fellow professionals.

Aguero suffers from the fact that despite being absolutely clinical and consistently so... maybe as a result of his injuries, he never actually ends up top scorer (has he done it once I think); and he’s not the sort of player that does a massive amount else, so there will always be others taking the votes.

David Silva I would suggest is another of those whose stock is rising as his career winds down. A gem of a player and truly gifted (technically brilliant) but there are always others that are better or more influential overall (at a club, league and national level).

[buu1333]

Scholes was great got the ball up the pitch to wingers and forward for them to do their stuff, don't underestimate the build up players, they help keep opposing team on back foot and they always need to be defensively aware. Pirlo was the same, I didn't watch a lot of him but he was lethal at euros and world cup and has won a world cup, I guess England underestimated that kind of player.

david silva is and was great and got loads and prises in first 5 years and the longer he was there the less prise he got in media ect, maybe it got normal and he is not English so less praise. But he is the player ozil wish he was in the premier league.

anyway here stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/4 ... ilva/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/3 ... oles/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1 ... rard/stats

[Zimmerman]

So in ten years... Silva has been player of the month once? He did get in the PFA team of the year twice.

Scholes four times monthly player of the year (in 19 years) and also in the PFA team of the year twice.

[Archy]

Interesting stats on those links.

Apparently Scholes scored 107 goals in his career: 13 of which were with his right foot, 2 with his left foot and 3 with his head. Any idea which part(s) of the body he scored the other 89 with?

[eastcentral1]

He didn't have the on field personality of the great midfield generals, like Zidane, Pirlo, Maradona, or even Gerrard, who was a level below those three but still able to boss big games in a way that Scholes never did.

The praise from other footballers sounds more patronising than anything else.

[blahblah]

Another thing is that we didn't really have his position in the 442 obsessed game, unlike today...

[thebillfella]

4-4-1-1 strictly speaking for United then blah!!!

[murf]

Another thing is that we didn't really have his position in the 442 obsessed game, unlike today...

Must be a limited player if he can't adapt to a formation....

[thebillfella]

Don't talk soft murf