Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

[morganb]

The whole of football is infested with dodgy business practice owners and greedy agents. The EFL need to do something before more Clubs go.

The only consolation I can muster from this very sad episode is the community togetherness and spirit that tends to surface when you have phoenix club situations.

As for Sky they can do one. Countdown Clock indeed to people losing their livelihoods. A disgrace and whoever thought that a good idea needs firing. And White wearing a black tie rather than his usual bow. Crass.

Seeing as you have referred to phoenix clubs, did you know that Arthur English (of "Are You Being Served?" fame) was president of Aldershot Town Football Club and designed the club’s rising phoenix badge? An interesting bit of history regarding Aldershot Town's formation here:

https://www.theshots.co.uk/june92-meeting/

The new Club badge was introduced for the very first time, featuring a phoenix rising from the flames and designed by experienced artist English over eight drafts across a two-week period. “The badge ended up as a combination of the original phoenix and a pub sign,” he admitted.

[raoul]

all company accounts are viewable through Companies House. Bury:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

You will need to scroll down to the most recently filed Accounts which are annoyingly 2017 but they do not paint a pretty picture even then. Since then there was the change of ownership, and it looks like the entire club was mortgaged for a loan. The provider of the loan is a company whose controlling party used to be … a property developer.

Draw from that what you will.

For an excellent account of what has been going on at Bury this article in the Guardian this morning succinctly details all the murky loan shenanigans and nepotism involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-ruins

I was beginning to think Steve Dale must be quite clever. But setting up a brand new company 2 days before a CVA meeting, buying a huge chunk of debt at a 99% discount to ensure you are the majority creditor and can therefore control the CVA vote, and putting your own daughter's partner in as director of the brand new company? He could have found someone a little less obvious surely.

I hope Mr Dale and family have good personal security arrangements, because I would not want to be them at the moment.

[forestfan]

Even his name suggests he’s an agent for their local rivals. A bit like when Green and White ruined Rangers...

[blahblah]

Have the EU been blamed yet?

I would expect the Inland Revenue to already have an active interest and possibly the Fraud Office, but I doubt that he has actually broken any laws in a provable way....

[bspittles]

I think the main problem is that many clubs sit on valuable land, and the rewards for gambling and succeeding are too high.

If the EFL were to start insisting on sporting covenants being placed on stadia, and TV money were more evenly distributed (so that an owner's ambitions can be restricted to wanting his/her club to compete at the highest possible level for footballing reasons rather than profit) then I think the football in this country would be a lot healthier.

And when the Sky bubble bursts, it won't be League One clubs collapsing, but the big boys.

[bluenosey]

all company accounts are viewable through Companies House. Bury:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

You will need to scroll down to the most recently filed Accounts which are annoyingly 2017 but they do not paint a pretty picture even then. Since then there was the change of ownership, and it looks like the entire club was mortgaged for a loan. The provider of the loan is a company whose controlling party used to be … a property developer.

Draw from that what you will.

For an excellent account of what has been going on at Bury this article in the Guardian this morning succinctly details all the murky loan shenanigans and nepotism involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-ruins

I was beginning to think Steve Dale must be quite clever. But setting up a brand new company 2 days before a CVA meeting, buying a huge chunk of debt at a 99% discount to ensure you are the majority creditor and can therefore control the CVA vote, and putting your own daughter's partner in as director of the brand new company? He could have found someone a little less obvious surely.

I hope Mr Dale and family have good personal security arrangements, because I would not want to be them at the moment.

Absolutely. He seems quite unrepentant/cold when in interviewed - never trust a man with a beard. Nothing generates more passion than someone's football team, especially when it's a close knit community.

In terms of nepostism, it's all a bit Blackpool-ish, but the Seasiders had a lucky escape.

[bluenosey]

I think the main problem is that many clubs sit on valuable land, and the rewards for gambling and succeeding are too high.

If the EFL were to start insisting on sporting covenants being placed on stadia, and TV money were more evenly distributed (so that an owner's ambitions can be restricted to wanting his/her club to compete at the highest possible level for footballing reasons rather than profit) then I think the football in this country would be a lot healthier.

And when the Sky bubble bursts, it won't be League One clubs collapsing, but the big boys.

I think clubs can apply for their grounds to be classified and protected as "Listed" status, can't they ? I'm not sure how safe this makes them, though.

[raoul]

all company accounts are viewable through Companies House. Bury:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

You will need to scroll down to the most recently filed Accounts which are annoyingly 2017 but they do not paint a pretty picture even then. Since then there was the change of ownership, and it looks like the entire club was mortgaged for a loan. The provider of the loan is a company whose controlling party used to be … a property developer.

Draw from that what you will.

For an excellent account of what has been going on at Bury this article in the Guardian this morning succinctly details all the murky loan shenanigans and nepotism involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-ruins

I was beginning to think Steve Dale must be quite clever. But setting up a brand new company 2 days before a CVA meeting, buying a huge chunk of debt at a 99% discount to ensure you are the majority creditor and can therefore control the CVA vote, and putting your own daughter's partner in as director of the brand new company? He could have found someone a little less obvious surely.

I hope Mr Dale and family have good personal security arrangements, because I would not want to be them at the moment.

Absolutely. He seems quite unrepentant/cold when in interviewed - never trust a man with a beard. Nothing generates more passion than someone's football team, especially when it's a close knit community.

In terms of nepostism, it's all a bit Blackpool-ish, but the Seasiders had a lucky escape.

I think the previous owner also has a lot to answer for. In fact I do wonder if Mr Dale realises he made a big mistake by buying the club, and that buying out the previous owner's debt from administration using his own future son in law was a last ditch attempt insurance policy to ensure he got some money if a sale never happened (which he would see as a likely outcome, given his realisation he had bought a lemon in financial terms).

Would also be interesting to hear from the administrators of the previous owner's fallen empire to understand why they sold a £7m debt for £70k. Did they not do due diligence on the buyer and realise what was about to happen?

[bluenosey]

Would also be interesting to hear from the administrators of the previous owner's fallen empire to understand why they sold a £7m debt for £70k. Did they not do due diligence on the buyer and realise what was about to happen?

Shouldn't the EFL have also picked this up, otherwise what's the point of this "fit and proper test" ?

[bspittles]

I think the main problem is that many clubs sit on valuable land, and the rewards for gambling and succeeding are too high.

If the EFL were to start insisting on sporting covenants being placed on stadia, and TV money were more evenly distributed (so that an owner's ambitions can be restricted to wanting his/her club to compete at the highest possible level for footballing reasons rather than profit) then I think the football in this country would be a lot healthier.

And when the Sky bubble bursts, it won't be League One clubs collapsing, but the big boys.

I think clubs can apply for their grounds to be classified and protected as "Listed" status, can't they ? I'm not sure how safe this makes them, though.

A covenant can be inserted into the deeds of the stadium stating that the land can only be used for sporting purposes. The covenant can be open-ended or have a limited lifespan. They can also be transferred, so a club could build a new stadium and then be able to sell the original for any purpose.

A stadium can also be registered with the council as an Asset of Community Value. This means that, if the site is put up for sale, the person/group making the registration have to be informed and given a period of time to investigate and form a bid. Details of the ACV for Oxford United can be be found here.

[murf]

There is little point in a club/owner doing this though is there?

For example, if, in the future, they want to move to a brand new modern stadium (as Bolton once did IIRC) then they can't finance it by selling their old decrepit stadium for housing as it has a restrictive covenant.

[murf]

Meanwhile, just down the road from Bury and Bolton, Alexis Sanchez has been loaned to Inter by Man U on the (alleged) basis they pay 150k of his 400k a week contract.

£20 million a year. Just the wages on one player for one team. Multiply that up for the 3 (and a bit) mega club squads in the North West area...

[bspittles]

There is little point in a club/owner doing this though is there?

For example, if, in the future, they want to move to a brand new modern stadium (as Bolton once did IIRC) then they can't finance it by selling their old decrepit stadium for housing as it has a restrictive covenant.

The covenant can be moved. I think it was Southampton who had to finish their new stadium before they could sell The Dell.

[blahblah]

Meanwhile, just down the road from Bury and Bolton, Alexis Sanchez has been loaned to Inter by Man U on the (alleged) basis they pay 150k of his 400k a week contract.

£20 million a year. Just the wages on one player for one team. Multiply that up for the 3 (and a bit) mega club squads in the North West area...

Isn't the 400k net?

[murf]

Meanwhile, just down the road from Bury and Bolton, Alexis Sanchez has been loaned to Inter by Man U on the (alleged) basis they pay 150k of his 400k a week contract.

£20 million a year. Just the wages on one player for one team. Multiply that up for the 3 (and a bit) mega club squads in the North West area...

Isn't the 400k net?

No idea - that would just make the point stronger.

[offtopic] - blah, is the typo/spelling mistake in your location deliberate? (only just noticed it!)[/offtopic]

[blahblah]

Which typo?

I'll try and dig out the quote.....

[bluenosey]

Meanwhile, just down the road from Bury and Bolton, Alexis Sanchez has been loaned to Inter by Man U on the (alleged) basis they pay 150k of his 400k a week contract.

£20 million a year. Just the wages on one player for one team. Multiply that up for the 3 (and a bit) mega club squads in the North West area...

Isn't the 400k net?

Either way, wouldn't it be nice if some of the top earning players donated part of their weekly salary to some sort of emergency fund to help Bury or Bolton ?

[Kentish Womble]

Meanwhile, just down the road from Bury and Bolton, Alexis Sanchez has been loaned to Inter by Man U on the (alleged) basis they pay 150k of his 400k a week contract.

£20 million a year. Just the wages on one player for one team. Multiply that up for the 3 (and a bit) mega club squads in the North West area...

Are you blaming the mega rich clubs? Don’t get me wrong, I detest some of their operations and the money spent on agents and wages but not sure how you equate the two. Bury has just been badly mismanaged and a rogue has taken over thinking he can make a quick pile of dosh.

[murf]

Not blaming anybody.

Just highlighting the anomalies and extremities in (blighting?) our beautiful domestic game.

[murf]

GOOD NEWS.

It appears that BOLTON are SAVED.

Takeover signed off.

[forestfan]

Well, no consolation to Bury fans but at least one of them was saved, assuming it’s not another false dawn for Bolton.

They’re almost certain to be playing League Two football next season, but hopefully now they can at least bring in some players who will allow them to field a competitive side for the rest of this one.

[raoul]

Well, no consolation to Bury fans but at least one of them was saved, assuming it’s not another false dawn for Bolton.

They’re almost certain to be playing League Two football next season, but hopefully now they can at least bring in some players who will allow them to field a competitive side for the rest of this one.

might put a couple of quid on them staying up. Sign of support and all that.

Or maybe I should donate it to Bury's redundant staff instead.

[forestfan]

A couple of logistical issues... FA Cup round one proper is a team down, so maybe a bye or a lucky loser as per Man Utd 2000?

Also, Bury’s scheduled last day opponents Fleetwood will now finish a week early, so what happens if they are in the promotion or relegation picture? Multiple games reshuffled?

[mikeg13]

There is little point in a club/owner doing this though is there?

For example, if, in the future, they want to move to a brand new modern stadium (as Bolton once did IIRC) then they can't finance it by selling their old decrepit stadium for housing as it has a restrictive covenant.

The covenant can be moved. I think it was Southampton who had to finish their new stadium before they could sell The Dell.

There was a covenant on the old Afc ground its why for many years no football there on a Sunday, can not remember how it was got round, probably Church of England who inserted it originally agreed but not sure.
To me we have to look at the German system, think clubs have to submit a type of business plan for up coming season (not sure of detail) at mo as far as can see clubs are judged on financial data thats out of date, with wages and transfer fee's at all levels its easy to understand how clubs chasing promotion or avoiding another season of being near bottom will get themselves quickly into trouble.
Prem TV money should have a larger portion used as bank to ensure that players/staff wages are paid and governing body holding the right to take over ownership of all non Prem teams. Its not just the sport thats lost when small clubs like Bury are lost but its often the heart of small towns. Just love our present league set up and once lost thats when we will discover just how wonderful it is.

[Zimmerman]

Nick Mason (Pink Floyd drummer) is part of the consortium that have bought Bolton.


Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream
Think I'll buy me a football team

[bluenosey]

There is little point in a club/owner doing this though is there?

For example, if, in the future, they want to move to a brand new modern stadium (as Bolton once did IIRC) then they can't finance it by selling their old decrepit stadium for housing as it has a restrictive covenant.

The covenant can be moved. I think it was Southampton who had to finish their new stadium before they could sell The Dell.

There was a covenant on the old Afc ground its why for many years no football there on a Sunday, can not remember how it was got round, probably Church of England who inserted it originally agreed but not sure.
To me we have to look at the German system, think clubs have to submit a type of business plan for up coming season (not sure of detail) at mo as far as can see clubs are judged on financial data thats out of date, with wages and transfer fee's at all levels its easy to understand how clubs chasing promotion or avoiding another season of being near bottom will get themselves quickly into trouble.
Prem TV money should have a larger portion used as bank to ensure that players/staff wages are paid and governing body holding the right to take over ownership of all non Prem teams. Its not just the sport thats lost when small clubs like Bury are lost but its often the heart of small towns. Just love our present league set up and once lost thats when we will discover just how wonderful it is.

The problem is not enough money filters down to the lower leagues.

Happy for Bolton though. They'll go down this year but still have there club

[Zimmerman]

Why is it about filter down? Why aren’t they self sufficient?

Do Tesco help bail out your local butchers?
Pizza Hut help support your local cafe?

Bury were quite content to mock blackpool in their fight against Oyston. Karma can be a right bitch.

These clubs do get some kickback.
If Wiki is correct, League 2 sides get £470k a season (which is about 50% of Bury’s gate receipts).

[murf]

They also make a lot of money from bigger clubs (averaged across the years) by selling on young players and getting lucky in cup draws.

[bspittles]

Why is it about filter down? Why aren’t they self sufficient?

These clubs do get some kickback.
If Wiki is correct, League 2 sides get £470k a season (which is about 50% of Bury’s gate receipts).

How much would they get if they won promotion (which they did)? Was the potential reward for success too high to resist?

[Zimmerman]

League One they get £700k (and presumably greater money from FL pot too)?