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THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 03 Oct 2018, 20:51

I don't want to be cruel and name SAM et al.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 03 Oct 2018, 21:38

blahblah wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 20:51
I don't want to be cruel and name SAM et al.
Well, he’s rarely failed to get a team promoted. I know, same was true of Bruce before this... the chances are they will go for a more adventurous pick this time, the fans might demand it, but it’s not necessarily the right move. Pick another Garde and they could find themselves in the third tier before they know it.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by TheTon » 03 Oct 2018, 22:07

Dean Smith would be my first choice, although I get the concerns about whether it’s too big for him. Personally don’t think it is.

My mate is adamant we should go for Rodgers, I personally think that would be terrible

If I see Big Sam, Pardew, Moyes, McCarthy etc in the seat, I will quit football

I’m not sure about Henry or Terry, I don’t think the timing is right.

Martin O’Neill has been mentioned

Paulo Fonseca isn’t someone I know much about to confidently give him my backing, but would be an interesting one

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 03 Oct 2018, 22:15

Rodgers surely wouldn’t go to the Championship anyway right now, I think he would have better offers (though maybe not for long given the way this season is unravelling) so you’re probably safe from that one if you don’t want him...

O’Neill return would be interesting, a few years ago it seemed a fair few Villa fans blamed him to a large extent for their decline despite the fact he left them in 6th place in the Premier League! I wonder if they still feel the same way... surely too old to be more than a stopgap now though.

Big Sam and Moyes are at least one bracket above Pardew and McCarthy (and perhaps O’Neill belongs in the same one now). I’d say be careful what you wish for by dismissing them as options... you’re half way down the Championship, you’re not Everton, West Ham or Newcastle. Colin might be available as well in a few weeks :lol:

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by TheTon » 03 Oct 2018, 22:28

What I wish for is a manager capable of getting the best out of the players available. If he does that, whoever he is, Villa should go up with the players they have.

Someone with tactical nouse, gets the ball down and plays. Plays players in the right positions. Doesn’t CONSTANTLY chop and change the team and formation. Someone who doesn’t buy/ loan 3 wingers then bench them all. Someone who doesn’t leave a striker on the bench and play 4-5-0 against bottom of the table. Someone who recognises deficiencies in the squad (centre back) and does something about it. Someone that say the EXACT SAME THING after EVERY SINGLE poor performance.

I could go on. I was genuinely one of the first to call for his head a long time ago. Not getting that squad promoted automatically was criminal. Harder to fail with that team than succeed, but he couldn’t do it, then he spent all season saying ‘how close’ we were...living in the past instead of actually moving forward.

I am getting into rant mode but it matters not. He is gone, finally.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 03 Oct 2018, 22:58

If I was asked which available manager had the best chance of getting Villa up this season, I’d say Allardyce without hesitation... you might not want to have him for 3 or 4 years, but getting teams up and keeping them there is what he does. But the old school British managers are a harder sell to fans these days, particularly when you’ve just got rid of one I suppose.

If it’s really the case that if they don’t go up this season then for financial reasons their next move is likely to be down, it has to be a quick fix rather than a wild gamble or a development project appointment.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Oct 2018, 23:06

forestfan wrote:Rodgers surely wouldn’t go to the Championship anyway right now, I think he would have better offers (though maybe not for long given the way this season is unravelling) so you’re probably safe from that one if you don’t want him...
Rodgers is often high in the betting for more lucrative jobs, but it's usually the bookmakers who put him there without any real input from the clubs.

I know at Everton, they were never even slightly interested in him in their last two appointments, they recruited Allardyce as a desperate measure after a catastrophic first process but eventually got their man Silva the second time around, but in neither process were they even remotely interested in Rodgers, despite his short odds at times in both.

It just seems that the Celtic manager is automatically touted and high in the betting for premier league positions, even if the clubs don't shortlist and aren't even remotely interested. Celtic's huge fanbase may explain some of this, as thin markets are easily moved and new favourites readily emerge. Neil Lennon, one of his predecessors, was always being touted for relatively top jobs (premier league, not top four), again including Everton (after Moyes left for a better position at United, with no grounds or interest from the club whatsoever), but eventually had to settle for virtually bankrupt and struggling second tier Bolton Wanderers.

Everyone knows, including the premier league club owners, just how worthless domestic achievements in Scotland are for a Celtic manager atm, and their European adventures have been rather less than ordinary at best.

Rodgers does though have a decent record previous to that in England with Swansea and Liverpool, and imo is one who does fully justify any interest. Employers though always primarily judge by your most recent position, and so It's a real pity that he too is hit by the same 'Scottish League' stigma.

(Despite Celtic's troubled start, few doubt they'll have it all wrapped up well before season end in what is very much a one team league)

I would think Rodgers could easily be interested in Villa if the salary was right, he's taken Celtic as far as they can realistically go on their spending budget. The standard of the championship is probably a lot higher than Scotland's top league and far more competitive, and the potential of the Villa Park club is still huge.

If he's once again in England it could increase his profile among premier league clubs as achieving something worthwhile, and his prospects of better positions elsewhere in England increase. Alternatively if things work out, then he can complete the task of building Villa back into a premier league club and eventually a real force.

It is easy to see a pathway forward that could attract an ambitious manager, whereas at Celtic there just isn't one available. In Scotland he can only repeat the 'non achievements' of the past two years, and then try to kid himself and his captive domesric audience that they're actually worth something.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 03 Oct 2018, 23:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 03 Oct 2018, 23:11

I think the trebles, unbeaten season etc. put him a level above other recent Celtic managers, added to his decent track record in England. Signs of it going stale though so he probably needs to leave while his stock is still high.

Maybe Everton weren’t interested, and maybe he’s not the man to win ugly and get a team out of a relegation scrap mid-season, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t get a reasonably attractive Premier League job somewhere. The size and potential of Villa might be tempting, but it’s still a troubled club and it could end up a Coleman to Sunderland-style career own goal.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Oct 2018, 23:21

forestfan wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 23:11
I think the trebles, unbeaten season etc. put him a level above other recent Celtic managers, added to his decent track record in England. Signs of it going stale though so he probably needs to leave while his stock is still high.

Maybe Everton weren’t interested, and maybe he’s not the man to win ugly and get a team out of a relegation scrap mid-season, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t get a reasonably attractive Premier League job somewhere. The size and potential of Villa might be tempting, but it’s still a troubled club and it could end up a Coleman to Sunderland-style career own goal.
Everton weren't interested after finishing eighth and getting rid of fire fighter Allardyce either, they also had money to spend and aren't exactly likely to struggle.

Any domestic achievements in Scotland are virtually worthless imo, he didnt really even have another challenger, even a nomark like Ronnie Delia won the league. I'm sure an armchair or other inanimate object as manager would win the league too. I happen to agree on his abilities because of his achievements at Swansea and Liverpool but not Scotland.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 03 Oct 2018, 23:33

liquidfootball2 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 23:21
forestfan wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 23:11
I think the trebles, unbeaten season etc. put him a level above other recent Celtic managers, added to his decent track record in England. Signs of it going stale though so he probably needs to leave while his stock is still high.

Maybe Everton weren’t interested, and maybe he’s not the man to win ugly and get a team out of a relegation scrap mid-season, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t get a reasonably attractive Premier League job somewhere. The size and potential of Villa might be tempting, but it’s still a troubled club and it could end up a Coleman to Sunderland-style career own goal.
Everton weren't interested after finishing eighth and getting rid of fire fighter Allardyce either, they also had money to spend and aren't exactly likely to struggle.

Any domestic achievements in Scotland are virtually worthless imo, he didnt really even have another challenger, even a nomark like Ronnie Delia won the league. I'm sure an armchair or other inanimate object as manager would win the league too. I happen to agree on his abilities because of his achievements at Swansea and Liverpool but not Scotland.
Not losing all season is impressive whoever you’re up against. Whereas Deila won the league despite trying pretty hard not to, and being out of Europe in August each year - he certainly wasn’t being linked with jobs in England.

I suppose a former Liverpool manager would never be likely to go down well at Everton anyway - I don’t suppose Benitez has ever made their shortlist either.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Oct 2018, 23:34


forestfan wrote:
The size and potential of Villa might be tempting, but it’s still a troubled club and it could end up a Coleman to Sunderland-style career own goal.
Villa have got new owners and aren't broke, Sunderland are so entirely different, Ellis Short has nothing at all to spend and has been trying to sell it (*supposedly) for years. Villa was always a thankless task and I for one was hugely surprised Coleman took it on without any signs of a sale and Ellis moving on.


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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Oct 2018, 23:48

forestfan wrote:
liquidfootball2 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 23:21
forestfan wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 23:11
I think the trebles, unbeaten season etc. put him a level above other recent Celtic managers, added to his decent track record in England. Signs of it going stale though so he probably needs to leave while his stock is still high.

Maybe Everton weren’t interested, and maybe he’s not the man to win ugly and get a team out of a relegation scrap mid-season, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t get a reasonably attractive Premier League job somewhere. The size and potential of Villa might be tempting, but it’s still a troubled club and it could end up a Coleman to Sunderland-style career own goal.
Everton weren't interested after finishing eighth and getting rid of fire fighter Allardyce either, they also had money to spend and aren't exactly likely to struggle.

Any domestic achievements in Scotland are virtually worthless imo, he didnt really even have another challenger, even a nomark like Ronnie Delia won the league. I'm sure an armchair or other inanimate object as manager would win the league too. I happen to agree on his abilities because of his achievements at Swansea and Liverpool but not Scotland.
Not losing all season is impressive whoever you’re up against. Whereas Deila won the league despite trying pretty hard not to, and being out of Europe in August each year - he certainly wasn’t being linked with jobs in England.

I suppose a former Liverpool manager would never be likely to go down well at Everton anyway - I don’t suppose Benitez has ever made their shortlist either.

There is that yes, even if Benitez was seriously discussed at one point, making any approach due to his past connections would have been a step too far.

The primary reason with Rodgers though was his most recent job Celtic, the way his star had fallen on Merseyside following his dismissal at Liverpool couldn't have helped his cause, but he just wasn't considered. I'm pretty sure that would have been the case without any fan base considerations and unfortunate past connections.

Neill Lennon had no past Liverpool connections but was similarly touted without any foundation. Laughably he was actually still second favourite in the betting despite Everton having a shortlist of six managers without his name being on it.

Everton perhaps a poor example with Rodgers, but not Neill Lennon, and other clubs' recruitment processes have often featured the current Celtic manager at the time too, none actually went that route for a reason, and that reason isn't too hard to think of.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by jimmy ching » 04 Oct 2018, 22:08

Mr Cook; slyly he goes.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 09:21

David Moyes the new favourite

Moyes 5/4, Henry 7/1, Cook, Fonseca 10/1, Smith 12/1, Rodgers 14/1, Allardyce 16/1

Probably a thin market though and small amounts will alter the odds easily

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 16:35

Sacking Steve Bruce looks altogether the wrong decision from the outside to me. I've seen vitriolic social media campaigns on fan sites before and its hard not to get caught up in the clamour for immediate action, crowds turn on managers at matches, the momentum snowballs and just becomes unstoppable. Criticism makes it easier for everyone to join in, to be with the crowd, to have the right opinion and feel part of the movement for change. Any even slightly dissenting view from any quarter is heavily ridiculed by the masses, making it an extremely foolhardy or stupidly brave action to take, and with heavy consequences too.

Even in his last match, Villa didn't particularly look like a team where Bruce had lost the players, they were cruising when suddenly, down to ten, the match turned on its head, even then they forced a late equaliser and missed a last minute penalty which would have given them the three points and put them back up to fifth.

If Bruce hadn't just been sacked by them and was doing reasonably well somewhere else, then he'd likely be top of their list for the new position.

Bruce had to cope with a club in severe financial difficulty at the end of last season, before the takeover by the new owners. Suddenly from looking to sell any real premium assets, firefighting and lowering the wage bill, he was presented with money and brought players in. These players aren't going to work straight away as they need time to develop understandings and know how the team plays, too many new players can mean a struggle early on, but they're not in any deep water or a situation that can't be rectified quickly enough.

Fulham last season were similar, they came good later on rather than early doors when they struggled in the lower reaches, in this league where you play so often, you win a few games and the whole situation turns dramatically.

It just looks from the outside a very very poor decision indeed to me.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 05 Oct 2018, 16:38

Wasn't it a case of a "functional" manager not delivering points?

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 17:11

blahblah wrote:Wasn't it a case of a "functional" manager not delivering points?
That could also easily describe Neil Warnock, although 'the not delivering points' bit only applying once in the premier league.

I did include mitigating factors for Bruce so won't repeat it, but he has achieved four promotions previously and not all from promising starts either.

Time isn't often given to anybody nowadays, immediate results are always necessary, he has a very decent record and perhaps promised better ahead than is likely with many of the probable replacements
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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 05 Oct 2018, 17:18

But Fulham were knocking about it during their poor start, and looked like a football team?

Hey ho: Fick Mick has announced his desire to manage them, and that he should be above the "foreign nonces" - I paraphrase :lol:

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 18:35

Promotion or relegation can be the result for teams' playing completely different styles of football, in the early stages last year it looked more probable that relegation might be Fulham's fate but happily it all came good. West Ham used to be everyone's second team, they played the West Ham way while being relegated more than once.

Bruce had an extremely difficult summer to negotiate and although the takeover brought financial redemption, he was never in a position to get his business done early, have his team properly prepared and the new signings bedded in.

It's much harder to have a team playing cohesively and to a plan when there are too many newcomers. If that penalty had gone in they would have been fifth, hardly put of the picture.

Four previous promotions and giving Birmingham City there highest ever finish, 10th in the prem, probably says Bruce has all the credentials and may well have come good once again.

Warnock keeps getting his teams promoted because his teams play in a style that gives them every chance in this league. Bruce has also achieved repeated success at this level and achieved creditable finishes in the first tier too.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 19:43

Bruce feels like a manager whose impact has tailed off in recent years, he went from someone who could get teams up and keep them there, to someone who could take teams up but not keep them there, and has now failed to get promotion at all with Villa.

It might have worked out for him given time but fans are less patient when the style of play is not entertaining these days. If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long. I guess Villa fans are also looking up the road and want their own version of SNES?

It could well backfire on Villa, but once the fans turn then there's little chance of a manager turning it around now, I guess the players will quickly down tools and save their energy for the next man once the home atmosphere turns toxic, as they know it's only a matter of time.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 05 Oct 2018, 20:08

forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 20:12

blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:08
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?
For 20 years at Forest I’ve been saying, I’d rather play the Clough way but I’ll take [boring manager X] if he gets results. None of them have done though :lol:

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 05 Oct 2018, 20:22

forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:12
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:08
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?
For 20 years at Forest I’ve been saying, I’d rather play the Clough way but I’ll take [boring manager X] if he gets results. None of them have done though :lol:
So you have turned?

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 21:47

forestfan wrote:Bruce feels like a manager whose impact has tailed off in recent years, he went from someone who could get teams up and keep them there, to someone who could take teams up but not keep them there, and has now failed to get promotion at all with Villa.
Wow such a sweeping sentiment that he's losing his touch, has he really? They lost 1-0 to Fulham in the play-off final last season, and it could easily have turned out much better this time around too.

There is no time for managers nowadays, you're always judged on recent results, if they had started nowadays there would be no history of Sir Alex at United in the future or even double top tier title winner Howard Kendall at Everton, if Clough had had a bad patch at Forest perhaps he could have been sunk early on too.

I do agree that if the fans have truly turned and he'd lost them completely then it's very difficult to come back, however i'm not so sure he had lost them all entirely, possibly any general feeling against him could in part just reflect recent disappointment rather than anything more permanent. There was a cabbage thrown by one annoyed 'fan' and obvious signs, but it immediately followed on from a disappointingly poor start, even so score that penalty and they're fifth. There was still plenty of reason to expect much better as the season progresses.

Certainly the twitterati and active participants on fan sites, the very vocal ones, yes they perhaps, and after such a disappointment the other night there's bound to be booing or disgruntlement with any crowd, a sending off and last second penalty miss wouldn't make anyone particularly contented.

The team could only really be functional now, as AVB found by spending the Bale money at Spurs and many have after, too many new players all at once rarely works right away. It takes time for any cohesive style to emerge, just keeping in touch had to be the only early aim.

To say Bruce's impact has tailed off, or the feeling is that's the case, seems to go against even last season's evidence.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 22:03

They were lucky to get as far as they did last season. From what I saw they looked a disjointed side with no clear identity, whereas the three who went up all had a clearly recognisable way of playing. It just looked scattergun, plenty of decent individuals for the level they were at, but nothing resembling a coherent team.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 22:17

blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:22
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:12
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:08
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?
For 20 years at Forest I’ve been saying, I’d rather play the Clough way but I’ll take [boring manager X] if he gets results. None of them have done though :lol:
So you have turned?
I’d still take success at any cost. But certain types of manager seem to be finding it harder to come by these days.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by blahblah » 05 Oct 2018, 22:26

forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 22:17
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:22
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:12
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:08
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?
For 20 years at Forest I’ve been saying, I’d rather play the Clough way but I’ll take [boring manager X] if he gets results. None of them have done though :lol:
So you have turned?
I’d still take success at any cost. But certain types of manager seem to be finding it harder to come by these days.
Tbh, I was surprised Colin got them up - hopefully Pullis fails this season.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 22:28

blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 22:26
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 22:17
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:22
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:12
blahblah wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 20:08
forestfan wrote:
05 Oct 2018, 19:43
If you have a "functional" style you'd better be running away with the division or you won't stick around for long.
Yep, and we rarely agree on this?
For 20 years at Forest I’ve been saying, I’d rather play the Clough way but I’ll take [boring manager X] if he gets results. None of them have done though :lol:
So you have turned?
I’d still take success at any cost. But certain types of manager seem to be finding it harder to come by these days.
Tbh, I was surprised Colin got them up - hopefully Pullis fails this season.
Still, young managers aren’t necessarily doing better, as I’m sure you will have noticed... Ipswich, Shrewsbury and Macclesfield are an example of the managerial food chain where everyone loses.

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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by liquidfootball2 » 05 Oct 2018, 22:30

Obviously a game of opinions and with Wolves and Fulham it's easy to agree with them having far more to offer.

Wolves were well financed, and getting absolutely superb deals thanks to a recruitment dependence on super-agent Jorge Mendes that only became all the stronger after his client Nuno Espirito Santos replaced Lambert. Such a set-up almost inevitably became an unstoppable force, and is well on it's way to being established in the premier league. Wolves have the contact and Mendes has the players to deliver.

Fulham played an attractive attacking style which was distinctive and marked them out as deserving of success, they do give the opposition a chance at the back though and with five points from a possible twenty-one may find staying up more difficult than Wolves.

Cardiff though i don't agree, I don't think they had a style any more cohesive than Villa, they battled and won every point they could, very fortunately at times and scrapped their way to promotion. They will however almost certainly be relegated straight away and may even be cut adrift right at the bottom, even Derby's all time low number of points could be threatened. A short lived stay is possibly all they expect having been frugal in their expenditure and that's what they'll almost certainly get.

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forestfan
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Re: THE CHAMPIONSHIP 2018-19

Post by forestfan » 05 Oct 2018, 22:33

Cardiff knew what they were, and it worked. Not that it was necessarily likely to work at a higher level (though I thought they might just end up being Stoke of 10 years ago, maybe it’s just that the Icelandic Delap has been injured...) but they had an identity and a team spirit, and Villa didn’t.

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