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Man City and FFP

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murf
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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by murf »

Judio wrote: 06 Nov 2018, 11:27 Back in the day when Women's Football was played in front of 25 people
Only need to add 1 zero for the present day. Liverpool v Man City in the new super league at the weekend, attendance = 661.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Another enjoyable detail is City awarded themselves a £5m win bonus for the 2013 FA Cup. Sorry Wigan, this no longer happened.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Embarrassing :D

And yet we all know they'll come to another deal with UEFA and nothing will come of this. :roll:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by forestfan »

They will have to quietly drop FFP to head off the breakaway threat now anyway.

It’s a fair enough idea for the lower leagues to prevent clubs going into administration by unsustainable spending and debt. But if an investor wants to bankroll a club to the top, nothing wrong with that. We all wish it was our club... the “establishment” clubs just want to prevent new challengers from emerging.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

We've been round the block many times about the validity of FFP, should it exist etc etc. The fact is City signed up to those rules and then set out to break them at every turn.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

Like every individual and business in every walk of life the world over.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by raoul »

Zimmerman wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 07:19 Like every individual and business in every walk of life the world over.
Yep.

All of whom then cough up if they are rumbled.

After first working out if they can make a saving by paying lawyers £10m to reduce the penalty by £11m (or better still find a loophole). Unfortunately the free marketer in me types that sentence and then concludes that they are perfectly entitled to do that.

I suppose as a QPR fan I am not really in a position to be talking FFP guilt...

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Re: Man City and FFP

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Darbyand wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 05:55 We've been round the block many times about the validity of FFP, should it exist etc etc. The fact is City signed up to those rules and then set out to break them at every turn.
It probably means the rules are unenforceable. IMO, if owners want to plough money into a club fair enough, but they should be ultimately liable for the debt, not the club as there's no reason why a top flight club should be taking on huge debt. I'm limited to what I can say, but I suspect the motivations for some owners is not all that straightforward.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by raoul »

Tacalabala wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 08:36
Darbyand wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 05:55 We've been round the block many times about the validity of FFP, should it exist etc etc. The fact is City signed up to those rules and then set out to break them at every turn.
It probably means the rules are unenforceable. IMO, if owners want to plough money into a club fair enough, but they should be ultimately liable for the debt, not the club as there's no reason why a top flight club should be taking on huge debt. I'm limited to what I can say, but I suspect the motivations for some owners is not all that straightforward.
limited in what way? Do you know more but dare not be specific or is Fiso at risk if someone posts direct (or even indirect) accusations?

I do not have any specifics on anyone so no accusations here, but would observe the following:

- money launderers would like a massive cash-based business to launder through
- preferably a business where there are a lot of cross-border transactions
- even better if the countries transacting with are somewhat opaque or have a culture of anything goes

Football clubs are perfect for this, and the fact that reported attendances always seem rather higher than the number who turn up may well be a clue that it is happening. Or it might not.

But thankfully all big clubs are owned by people of the highest unquestionable integrity, from countries that are safe as houses, whose money has clearly been earned through legitimate means, so there is nothing to worry about.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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raoul wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 09:30 the fact that reported attendances always seem rather higher than the number who turn up may well be a clue that it is happening. Or it might not.
"Not" in this case I'm afraid. That one is a red herring. Some clubs (coughArsenalcough) regularly - and legally - quote their "attendance" as the number of seats sold which can be vastly different from the number that actually attend due to absent season ticket holders and non-full boxes etc (certain clubs attracting more rich and less fanatical folks who can afford to pick and choose when they turn up).

No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by raoul »

murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
raoul wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 09:30 the fact that reported attendances always seem rather higher than the number who turn up may well be a clue that it is happening. Or it might not.
"Not" in this case I'm afraid. That one is a red herring. Some clubs (coughArsenalcough) regularly - and legally - quote their "attendance" as the number of seats sold which can be vastly different from the number that actually attend due to absent season ticket holders and non-full boxes etc (certain clubs attracting more rich and less fanatical folks who can afford to pick and choose when they turn up).

No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
not suggesting it explains all of it. But it could explain some of it, and it is an easy way to launder.

Personally if it was me, I would buy the tickets and give them to friends and associates knowing a fair number of them will turn up, making it even better at masking what I am up to.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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raoul wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 11:01
murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
raoul wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 09:30 the fact that reported attendances always seem rather higher than the number who turn up may well be a clue that it is happening. Or it might not.
"Not" in this case I'm afraid. That one is a red herring. Some clubs (coughArsenalcough) regularly - and legally - quote their "attendance" as the number of seats sold which can be vastly different from the number that actually attend due to absent season ticket holders and non-full boxes etc (certain clubs attracting more rich and less fanatical folks who can afford to pick and choose when they turn up).

No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
not suggesting it explains all of it. But it could explain some of it, and it is an easy way to launder.

Personally if it was me, I would buy the tickets and give them to friends and associates knowing a fair number of them will turn up, making it even better at masking what I am up to.
Would be a small drop in the ocean considering the scale of financial doping and money laundering being considered here. Sponsoring and seasonal hiring of boxes etc may be a slightly larger drop.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
raoul wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 09:30 the fact that reported attendances always seem rather higher than the number who turn up may well be a clue that it is happening. Or it might not.
"Not" in this case I'm afraid. That one is a red herring. Some clubs (coughArsenalcough) regularly - and legally - quote their "attendance" as the number of seats sold which can be vastly different from the number that actually attend due to absent season ticket holders and non-full boxes etc (certain clubs attracting more rich and less fanatical folks who can afford to pick and choose when they turn up).

No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
Was it Leeds who got done for Tax Evasion? Some Club were found out by not declaring how many had paid: ie they claimed x thousand, when it was 1.5 or 2 times x.

I think there may be a separate figure given to the Police for evacuation purposes, but tbh that would be pointless as it isn't like a work place type fire evacuation and accounting for all in the building....

Didn't Unc, or someone, go into the details of an extra 10k tickets\seats at £50 is £500k per match, or £10m a season, and Spurs are looking at approx £1,000 million (why did I assume a billion was a million million?) before interest to pay for their new one. As in the ESL thread, they key could be the huge Dressing Rooms, big enough for an NFL Franchise as their only way to pay it off?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

I’m sure that stuff was rife in the days before automated tickets.

Obviously figures are tiny... but the attendances at Blackpool games in the late eighties/early 90s were always a major laughing point amongst the crowd. The stadium only held 8k or so in those days. So when they were jostling for playoff for a few seasons and the ground was full, it’s was blatantly clear that it was more than the 4000 and something announced over the ground announcer.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

Reads like the Club, which I am sure was Leeds, and HMRC should have been on Blackpool too?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
The Emptihad? Not even close!!! :D

[Unless you're referring to The Stone Roses concert :wink: ]

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by jimmy ching »

Darbyand wrote: 06 Nov 2018, 17:33 Another enjoyable detail is City awarded themselves a £5m win bonus for the 2013 FA Cup. Sorry Wigan, this no longer happened.
The joy, the delirium that the Wigan supporters have, is something a big club supporter will never experience.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

thebillfella wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 22:59
murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
The Emptihad? Not even close!!! :D

[Unless you're referring to The Stone Roses concert :wink: ]
There was something I saw the other day alluding to City being one of the most sold out/occupied grounds.

Yet they are always advertising their tickets on the radio like the tinpot club they are

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

jimmy ching wrote: 08 Nov 2018, 07:24

The joy, the delirium that the Wigan supporters have, is something a big club supporter will never experience.
Oh I dunno, I was very happy when Wigan scored that goal :wink:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Zimmerman wrote:
thebillfella wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 22:59
murf wrote: 07 Nov 2018, 10:40
No idea - do Citeh sell out (and/or fill out) regularly?
The Emptihad? Not even close!!! :D

[Unless you're referring to The Stone Roses concert :wink: ]
There was something I saw the other day alluding to City being one of the most sold out/occupied grounds.

Yet they are always advertising their tickets on the radio like the tinpot club they are
Another blag / manipulation, possibly from Abu Dhabi United Group, to cover yet another way of pumping cash into the club without falling foul of FFP (IMO - I have no evidence of this!)!

Wasn't there a report recently eluding to City making up their attendance figures (amd then you need to ask why?).

I know our "20000 empty seats" song is a bit of a piss take but I think there own official figures have an average attendance of some 10000 less than capacity).

I have a few friends who regularly decide on a whim to go to the game on the day and pay at the gate - a concept virtually unheard of at say OT or Anfield.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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thebillfella wrote: 08 Nov 2018, 13:12 I have a few friends who regularly decide on a whim to go to the game on the day and pay at the gate - a concept virtually unheard of at say OT or Anfield.
How much?

But yes, the "Attendance" isn't the actual number of seats with an arse on it as it is a figure close to the Inland Revenue and\or the vat bod's heart\mind as per Arsenal and whoever it was that was caught that way years ago. No-one really knows how many seats have been paid for so they could be laundering cash less tax that way.... While "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves" has a ring of truth to it, this is in a different league?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

City have announced plans to expand their capacity to 63k (up from the current 55k)

a) will they actually install 8k new seats
b) will these 8k seats cost 10k per season
c) will they ever need these additional seats (apart from Spice Girls concerts)?

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Re: Man City and FFP

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Darbyand wrote: 05 Nov 2018, 20:58
It turns out City stadium rights in the latest deal were funded by £8m from the sponsor with a £59m top up from Abu Dhabi i.e. the owners. That stinks.

https://twitter.com/TelegraphDucker/sta ... 25637?s=19
Looks like uefa have focused on this particular detail.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... estigation

Talk of a Champions League ban doesn't seem to fit the crime. The fans that turn up hate the CL and boo the anthem. I'd strip them of their 2012 and 2018 domestic titles.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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Relegate them to League 2 like Rangers. See how many superstars and glory hunting 'fans' stay with them then.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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Hate the financial doping of clubs, but sadly see no enforceable way to prevent it, what would like to see (but sadly probably again unenforceable) that 51% of shares in a club playing in a top country league must be owned by citizens of the country, if not the case entry to European comps barred, as an Afc fan we would be one of the clubs but it would in the long term stop the in my eyes cheating, with silver ware won by what a club has achieve on the pitch and not by owners wallet

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Re: Man City and FFP

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mikeg13 wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 19:21 Hate the financial doping of clubs, but sadly see no enforceable way to prevent it, what would like to see (but sadly probably again unenforceable) that 51% of shares in a club playing in a top country league must be owned by citizens of the country, if not the case entry to European comps barred, as an Afc fan we would be one of the clubs but it would in the long term stop the in my eyes cheating, with silver ware won by what a club has achieve on the pitch and not by owners wallet
I'd rather the owners' wallet than an unbreakable cartel of top clubs. At least it allows other fans to dream of being the next Man City etc.

It's only "doping" if it's money they don't have. Owners should be able to put in what they want, but include an up front security bond of X years' planned spending to the football authorities to ensure it is sustainable.

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Re: Man City and FFP

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mikeg13 wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 19:21 Hate the financial doping of clubs, but sadly see no enforceable way to prevent it, what would like to see (but sadly probably again unenforceable) that 51% of shares in a club playing in a top country league must be owned by citizens of the country, if not the case entry to European comps barred, as an Afc fan we would be one of the clubs but it would in the long term stop the in my eyes cheating, with silver ware won by what a club has achieve on the pitch and not by owners wallet
But those Clubs will just form the European\World Super League?

Didn't your lot have the cash (many) decades ago?

I think the lack of it was part of the appeal of my once beloved Ipswich in the early\mid 1970's, but my ire wasn't so much at the teams that pipped us to trophies but the likes of Spurs who injured loads in 1981 (including ruining Burley's career) and cost us the League, FAC Cup and UEFA Cup treble.

I kinda like the Big Club fans moaning about Citeh and splashing cash. Was there a similar Blackburn and Leeds reaction?

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Re: Man City and FFP

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forestfan wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 19:27
mikeg13 wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 19:21 Hate the financial doping of clubs, but sadly see no enforceable way to prevent it, what would like to see (but sadly probably again unenforceable) that 51% of shares in a club playing in a top country league must be owned by citizens of the country, if not the case entry to European comps barred, as an Afc fan we would be one of the clubs but it would in the long term stop the in my eyes cheating, with silver ware won by what a club has achieve on the pitch and not by owners wallet
I'd rather the owners' wallet than an unbreakable cartel of top clubs. At least it allows other fans to dream of being the next Man City etc.

It's only "doping" if it's money they don't have. Owners should be able to put in what they want, but include an up front security bond of X years' planned spending to the football authorities to ensure it is sustainable.
When I typed my reply I did think of your lot and Francis et al - where did that come from?

My lot were owned by very prudent (for want of a word) owners of a local brewery, and that patriachal type ownership was typical ie Arse the local muntions company, WHAM local ironworks, Lpool clubs by the Moores (Littlewoods) etc

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

blahblah wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 19:35
Didn't your lot have the cash (many) decades ago?

I think the lack of it was part of the appeal of my once beloved Ipswich in the early\mid 1970's, but my ire wasn't so much at the teams that pipped us to trophies but the likes of Spurs who injured loads in 1981 (including ruining Burley's career) and cost us the League, FAC Cup and UEFA Cup treble.

I kinda like the Big Club fans moaning about Citeh and splashing cash. Was there a similar Blackburn and Leeds reaction?
For most of my lifetime club was in the hands of 2 families the Bracewell-Smiths and the Hill-Woods, yes both wealthy families, but to best of my knowledge neither put money into club or again my knowledge took any big amounts out. Before them guy call Norris was the main man but most of the big clubs of the time had pretty much equal sugar daddies some a little more than others but nothing like today, Afc started at the Arms factory but no finance from them, Forest gave us original shirts and Glasgow Rangers early investors in us, I was heartbroken when few years ago they sold there original stake in us.
Have no problem with owners putting money into clubs i.e investing but have big problem when money is to the degree that competition is no longer a remotely level playing field

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

That's the point isn't it. Big difference between Jack Walker putting in a lifetime's hard earned (and even that was "only" £30m or similar) versus a state investing sovereign wealth of £2-3bn and taking a middleweight* club far beyond its peers. Pretty pathetic when fans say they'd like it to happen to their club, aspire higher.

*As I've said before it doesn't really damage the other big clubs, the "cartel" continues if they're well run. It's clubs like Everton and Southampton who've had a top 6 finish but a chance at the Champions League and the revenues from it denied them by City and Chelsea leapfrogging into the top 4 then dropping anchor. Becoming the new cartel.

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