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Man City and FFP

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AkNotSpur
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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by AkNotSpur »

Red Eye wrote:With or without the CL you will always have a fairly stable elite just because some clubs are massive and have big commercial revenues. But I think its indisputable there would be a more fluid situation at the top without oil doping.
The CL has made a massive difference, because the teams that have qualified regularly for 20 years have enjoyed a massive boost to their revenue which has enable them to build new or bigger stadiums and increase that revenue even further and become global brands. Without oil/financial doping, I could only see a United and Arsenal duopoly with Liverpool banging on the door - hardly a fluid situation. Funnily enough, it appears to be the fans of those 3 clubs that show the most enthusiasm for FFP - IMHO, without FD, they are the only teams who would have ever won the Premiership.

Unfortunately, the days when other clubs can steadily climb the ladder to join the elite are long gone and the only way to compete with what's left of the stable elite is by financial doping - the fast route taken by City and Chelsea (and to a lesser extent Blackburn 20 years ago). During the Premiership era Leeds, Villa, Newcastle, Everton have all attempted to join the elite only to over-stretch themselves financially; Spurs are the latest club to knock on that door regularly, but with the building of a new stadium, may well join that list of failures unless another, extremely wealthy, backer injects more money into the club. It certainly can't be done if the definition of financial fairness is to allow clubs with 4 times Spurs' revenue to spend 4 times as much on transfer fees and wages.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Red Eye »

I didn't say it would be fluid (I said it would be fairly stable), but that it would be more fluid, which I believe is indisputable. We have 4 CL places yet you list only 3 clubs - someone else would qualify and earn the extra revenue. (cue the argument we would lose a place... :roll: ) In my view that revenue is earned so can be spent however a club sees fit and yes that is fair.

You don't think it can be done but I disagree. The Manager is the most important person at any club and if someone like Wenger took over Spurs and managed them for the next 10 years my money would be on them being up there. It's true it can't be done in the next 18 months - 2 years and that is the timescale these 'investors' (and fans these days) are interested in because they are used to buying whatever they want.

The whole thing is seen as far too black and white. Someone could take over Spurs, pay for the stadium and make an on-going net investment on transfers/wages and still be within FFP. But if someone took over and did what Chelsea and city did that would surely only leave all the other clubs worse off and it would totally undermine the sporting aspect. People (cynically) totally ignore this with FFP but it is exactly the same as not letting athletes pump themselves full of drugs - the results you get out do not reflect what you put in.

Some of what has happened in the game just has to be accepted. The days of Notts Forest winning the league are gone, but so are the days of Ajax or Red Star Belgrade winning the CL. What can we do about that? Short of having a full-blown European league with a very equitable TV deal I don't see an answer but I know letting billionaires run amok isn't it.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Red Eye wrote:I didn't say it would be fluid (I said it would be fairly stable), but that it would be more fluid, which I believe is indisputable. We have 4 CL places yet you list only 3 clubs - someone else would qualify and earn the extra revenue. (cue the argument we would lose a place... :roll: ) In my view that revenue is earned so can be spent however a club sees fit and yes that is fair.
Big clubs drop the ball all the time too. Look at Milan. United botching the Fergie succession. Liverpool selling Suarez to an even bigger club. Obviously the previous page was a bit of idle speculation on hypotheticals but on balance, FFP is better for the likes of Spurs and Everton. All things being equal they would finish above City.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Darbyand wrote:FFP is better for the likes of Spurs and Everton. All things being equal they would finish above City.
I'm just glad FFP wasn't around in the 60s, as obviously without financial doping City could have never won the league. :roll: :lol:

Obviously the only fair way to succeed in football, is to become a brand, and sell merchandise to fans around the world, and get 4 official match day sock sponsors, so that you have an unfair financial advantage. :lol:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Well that's the point. A relatively unsuccessful club with two titles, the last one won over forty years ago suddenly wins 2 in 3 years. Because Arab oil billionaires bought them for them.

The way you introduced it was totally irrelevant. In the relevant time period, better for Spurs and Everton.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

So when you said, all things being equal they would finish above City. What you meant is City could have still finished above them, glad we've cleared that up. If you think that City and Chelsea bought the title, and United don't spend big money, you are utterly deluded. The difference is you think that global merchandising, sponsorship partners, and monetising an army of glory supporters, are fine ways for a club to go on to buy success, but you find the idea of someone investing money repulsive, I wonder why.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Thanks for telling me what I meant... When that's not what I meant.

And yes I think they bought the title and yes United do spend lots of their own money.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Well there you go, you could even say that outside investment has increased competition for the title and increased the quality of the league.

In light of the facts, I think you might need to explain what you meant. Do you object to businessmen investing in football clubs?
Having been saved from liquidation by four wealthy businessmen, the club played its first season as Manchester United in 1902–03. The badly needed injection of cash, plus some new players, gave the flagging side the boost it needed. They won 15 league games, notched up 38 points and finished fifth.
The point is, no club has a divine status as a big club and money in football would be a factor in modern football anyway. Fans shouldn't expect their team to win everything, and always be the most successful team.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Red Eye »

Carlos Kickaball wrote:Well there you go, you could even say that outside investment has increased competition for the title and increased the quality of the league.
You could argue that - it's debatable but, i'll say it again, FFP does not prevent outside investment.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Red Eye »

Darbyand wrote:
Red Eye wrote:I didn't say it would be fluid (I said it would be fairly stable), but that it would be more fluid, which I believe is indisputable. We have 4 CL places yet you list only 3 clubs - someone else would qualify and earn the extra revenue. (cue the argument we would lose a place... :roll: ) In my view that revenue is earned so can be spent however a club sees fit and yes that is fair.
Big clubs drop the ball all the time too. Look at Milan. United botching the Fergie succession. Liverpool selling Suarez to an even bigger club.
Of course they do - that's because recruitment (players or managers) is very hit and miss. Spending the most does not guarantee higher performance in the short to medium term - look at Arsenal v city this season, the performances of Kane v Falcao, Sterling v Di Maria etc. You don't always get it right. In the case of Spurs, lets not forget it wasn't long ago they sold Elvis for £80m. They can't argue they have been short of cash - it's just unfortunate they were only able to buy The Monkees and not The Beatles.

The important point is that, for things to be fair, actions should have consequences. Kompany's argument that 'it's not fair - we should be able to invest' falls down because they have been investing!...so much so they failed FFP. What he wants is infinite spending to serve as a vaccine against failure, which clearly would not be 'fair'.

I think its easy to be cynical about the view of a United fan and say its only about self-preservation. Like I said, without FFP, given the fresh interest taken by billionaires in the game, you would end up with a warped 'beauty contest' where a few clubs would 'pull' but the majority wouldn't and there would be light-years between the two groups of clubs. This is not just about United for me because (a) I think we can compete anyway and (b) if it came to it, I'm pretty sure we would pull and not be left on the shelf (you only have to look at the number of 'partners' we have :) ).

I just don't want to see PSG, led by Messi and Ronaldo, beat Monaco in the CL final. More competition - good for the game right? :roll:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Carlos Kickaball wrote:Well there you go, you could even say that outside investment has increased competition for the title and increased the quality of the league.
You could also say that it hasn't increased competition for the title at all; just meant that you have to pay far more than before for the same calibre of players meaning that only those who have money either organically or via doping are now capable of competing.
Carlos Kickaball wrote:
The point is, no club has a divine status as a big club and money in football would be a factor in modern football anyway. Fans shouldn't expect their team to win everything, and always be the most successful team.
No sure what this last bit has got to do with the price of milk to be honest. Who is talking about divine rights or expectation to win everything?

FFP doesn't stop anyone, no-matter how big or small, growing organically and improving their own commercial model to do so over time (or overnight for the likes of City and PSG).

I'd be more than happy to have a cap on total transfer spend per season and maximum per person to help level the playing field, but this would have to be right across the board throughtout UEFA at least (and FIFA for the purposes of fairness in the World Club Cup). I think we all know that this is never going to happen, so what's the next best thing. FFP may not be the perfect answer but it is far fairer than financial doping of the few that were chosen because they were managed so poorly beforehand and rewarded for ineptitude.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Reading co-owner Sasima lauds Financial Fair Play rules

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32395853

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... -fair-play

Pity this stuff doesn't get much coverage yet people feel sorry for City because they're not allowed to spend oil money from the middle east blowing away the competition in the transfer market.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by murf »

It does include Man City's "sponsorship"....

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Well that's a joke obviously. I think the Uefa interpretation looks more at the fair value of those kinds of deals.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Darbyand wrote:Zimm's beat me to it in the main, but to use your own figures back at you, when you secured a shirt and stadium sponsorship deal in 2011 via mates rates it was for £40m a year.

Yet when you went to the open market for a kit deal in 2012 (presumably there are no global sportswear manufacturers and distributors in the UAE?) as Premier league champions elect in May 2012 you got a fairly pitiful £12m a year. That's because those companies demand a return on the investment in terms of visibility worldwide and shirt sales. And City with a small predominantly UK fanbase are an unattractive proposition in those terms.

As for the great charidee works your sugar daddies are doing in the City of Manchester, do me a favour. If the owners want to raise living standards for the poor and disadvantaged they'll find several millions on their own doorstep - see here. It's just another way of false accounting to cheat FFP the huge amounts they're pumping into the club.
Lest we forget...

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Roma and Monaco are among seven clubs who will have their European squads capped next season after breaking Financial Fair Play rules.

Ten clubs in total have agreed settlements with Uefa for overspending.

Besiktas, Krasnodar, Lokomotiv Moscow, Monaco, Roma and Sporting Lisbon can only name 22 players in next season's Champions League or Europa League squads.

Inter Milan, who may not qualify for Europe, have been capped at 21.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32666094

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

What ended up happening with Barcelonas ban?

Was it served or is it still pending appeal?

EDIT: banned from signing anyone in 2015 http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30633737

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

Shit just got real (if Pep to City is legit).

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Judio »

Zimmerman wrote:What ended up happening with Barcelonas ban?

Was it served or is it still pending appeal?

EDIT: banned from signing anyone in 2015 http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30633737
They appealed so they could spend 100 million last summer while the appeal was being heard !!!

Same may happen with Madrid clubs this summer if so De Gea will get snapped up

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Anyone got a realistic idea how much City could spend this summer without falling foul of FFP again? Seem to recall they had about a 50m budget last summer before anything raised from sales. Not sure what the deal with Bony was...offset against Negredo who Valencia are compelled to buy this summer??

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Maybe they knew this capitulation was coming from UEFA making FFP even more toothless (and probably shows where the real power in football lies when push comes to shove)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32784375

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Worrying stat for City?

2014/15 PL mins (players now 23 and under):
Spurs - 14,157
Liverpool - 12,512
Man Utd - 5,963
Arsenal - 5,862
Chelsea - 5,665
Man City - 137

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Red Eye »

Could be depending on what they do with FFP. If they make significant changes city could potentially blitz the transfer market again - no need for forward planning or youth development - just cherry pick new players until you win and discard the old players with cost an irrelevance.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Maybe but I think the old guard are ready this time. In 2009-10 there was a bit of a self imposed recession amongst the big.clubs and City blew them out of the water on fees and more importantly wages.

This time round, not so much. If Pogba is wanted in Spain he'll go to Spain. If an Aguero was on the domestic market he'd probably stay there.

Similar back here. If United and City go head to head this summer I'd fancy our chances. Arsenal won't be giving away their best players for want of a decent pay rise.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Red Eye »

Yes that's true - they won't it all their own way as far as specific targets are concerned. But in general if FFP changes there might not be anything budget-wise to stop them signing 6 or 7 new players to lower the age profile - it's just a question of who those players might be.

If FFP stays as it is, they'll have to limit losses, which constrains spending, necessitates player sales etc. In other words they'd have to demonstrate managerial skill/business acumen - perish the thought. Totally unfair I say.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by thebillfella »

Manchester City have had restrictions on transfer spending and Champions League squad size lifted after meeting their Financial Fair Play target.

After breaching Uefa rules, City's spending in 2014 was capped at £49m and their European squad cut to 21 players.

They were also fined £16.3m but, after meeting break-even compliance targets, restrictions have been eased.

Paris St-Germain, who were given the same punishment last year, have also had sanctions lifted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33381403

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

This debate was from 2014....
snout wrote: 06 Aug 2014, 15:45
Darbyand wrote:So you're saying those deals were fair.market value for a club of city's size? Which deals trumped it? Presumably done by far bigger clubs. You can't compare City's shirt deal with United, not even in the same ballpark.
Let's compare figures shall we? [I've done my best to look through the smoke-and-mirrors that plague these deals but here goes...]

Emirates shirt/naming deal + Puma kit = £60m a year for Arsenal (£30m py each)

£75m per year for United's Adidas shirt deal plus £53m per year from Chevrolet for shirts. £128m total

Estimated £35m per year for Ethiad stadium naming rights/shirt deal plus £12m from Nike. £47m py total.

United £128m (without a stadium naming deal). Arsenal £60m. City £35m. I would say we've undersold ourselves and should be looking at £50m minimum, maybe £60m. PL champions twice in three years, we should look to re-negotiate the deal.



On fair market value with the Ethiad stadium/shirt spon deal, that same link from above has some interesting thoughts. Couple of years old but worth a re-read.

Some interesting analysis here (with associated infographic) on what clubs could earn if they re-negotiated (or started) naming rights.


Not really bothered in which thread City chat gets correlated. As you say it all comes down to the money, especially the money being pumped in to regenerate a blighted area of Manchester and develop the country's best academy facilities, as a solid grounding for future success without the need for further massive investment into the industry. Oh and you may not have seen this; funnily enough it wasn't reported very widely at the time, maybe because of Yayacakegate.

A lot of City fans are quite happy to us to be making quiet, successful progress under a dignified manager. We shall let empty vessels make more noise.
It turns out City stadium rights in the latest deal were funded by £8m from the sponsor with a £59m top up from Abu Dhabi i.e. the owners. That stinks.

https://twitter.com/TelegraphDucker/sta ... 25637?s=19

Pity I probably need them to win the league this season or I'd be looking for major punishment. :D

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Judio »

The involvement of the current FIFA president is also disgraceful

I am sure I read that the women's team had a multi million pound sponsorship deal

Back in the day when Women's Football was played in front of 25 people

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

City ladies PAY for the privilege of using the Man City name/colours don’t they 😂

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