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Man City and FFP

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unc.si.
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Man City and FFP

Post by unc.si. »

Only £51m losses in 2013, but some creative accounting may well help them get under the FFP rules, according to reports.

What is staggering from the accounts isn't the losses (which aren't that meaningful for a football club tbh) but the fact that the cash outflow was £156m. Cash outflows in FY12 were £184m and £179m in FY11. That's £519m of cash 'loss' in 3 years, all funded by share issues to the Sheik.

Compare that to Arsenal's c. £45m cash inflow in that same 3 year period (funded in part by £75m of property sale income in the same period, so a £30m outflow, although in reality that will include development costs so the actual total outflow had there been no property sales would have been likely to be significantly less than £30m).

Broadly speaking, City have spent roughly £500m more than Arsenal in the last 3 years.

Level playing field??

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Achiles74 »

No its not a level playing field.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by em9999 »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... rules.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

man city are a joke club

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by bigsheff »

Do any neutrals really care though?

I'm told from friends working in the area, what they've built & are still building (training complex etc) is immense.
Quite simply, they are building an empire.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

unc.si. wrote: Broadly speaking, City have spent roughly £500m more than Arsenal in the last 3 years.

Level playing field??
Sadly large % of fans only care about silverware how its got no relevance, be interesting to hear whats said if UEFA wont accept some of the commercial deals as gen and a high profile club excluded, will they cry foul.
As far as aware its still being looked at with regard to at least 3 clubs by UEFA, only one English.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by em9999 »

kick them out the champions league then they might start caring

its not the way a football club should be run its criminal....

it would really bother me if i was a man city fan to just what is being done to my club .. Yes it may bring them success but at what price if they havent got a football club left in 20 years..

sad really is

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Zimmerman »

Why are they a disgrace?
Why won't they have a football club in 20years?

As Sheff says, they are building (and paying for) an empire.

What's happening to United (or Liverpool to a lesser extent) or to Cardiff or Blackpool is a "disgrace".

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

To be honest, I see this all as no different to a Tesco Metro or Sainsburys Local opening in an area and putting the corner shops out of business etc.

On the plus side for Citeh as opposed to MU\Liverpool etc their owners seem to investing a load of capital in Manchester. So if there is a World League operated as franchises similar to Yank football, they are unlikely to relocate it to the East, or would they?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by stuboy »

em9999 wrote:kick them out the champions league then they might start caring

its not the way a football club should be run its criminal....

it would really bother me if i was a man city fan to just what is being done to my club .. Yes it may bring them success but at what price if they havent got a football club left in 20 years..

sad really is
Em, you know how you get really wound up when you believe people are saying stupid things about Arsenal......

Thanks

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by snout »

Interesting article.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/bos ... her-pompey

Echoing some of what I've suggested before. If you want to pump shitloads of money into a club (and therefore the sport as a whole), fine, you should be allowed to. But there should be safeguards to make sure that money is sustainable, e.g. escrow accounts to make sure commitments are met and another "Portsmouth" doesn't happen.

Plus I'm sure Platini would love the idea of a 10-15% luxury tax on the escrow accounts and what he could do with that money to invest it in "youth football". :wink:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

Not a big fan of way UEFA have put new regs into place, to me it just ensures the haves keep there place on the top table, but something has to be done otherwise the game will destroy its self.
Think half clubs in Spain are pretty much bankrupt, not much better in Italy, you cant have a wage cap as such as that would destroy the league system, honestly dont know the answer, but something has to be done.

Read article and dont think he will win this one, my understanding is nothing to stop owners putting any money they like into club, but if they want to compete in UEFA compe they have to conform to regs of that comp. In F1 no matter how much owner wants to spend on an engine he is limited to regs regarding what he can do, to me same principal.
Think the decision on how regs are going to be applied as yet still not confirmed, seems to be handful of clubs who if regs applied as written are going to fall foul, its how much leeway to allow, especially with regard to commercial deals, it should become clear in next few weeks.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Mark1886 »

FFP is not going to be the saviour everyone seem to think it will be. As one loophole closes, another one opens.

Some creative accounting from Real Madrid and Manchester City;

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-3 ... group.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These are the ones we do know about, there must be loads more to be uncovered. (Or not, sadly)

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

I think the best we can hope for from FFP is that it applies a small brake on the oil clubs i.e. City's relatively quiet summer 2012, Chelsea selling Mata to slightly balance the books, in previous years they may have just stockpiled talent to stop other teams having them.

Would be (pleasantly) amazed if any club is banned from Champs Lge because of it, and let's face it City are still taking the piss with their accounts -£22m of intellectual property for letting the ladies team use their name :roll:

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

Just imagine: they ban\suspend RM and Barca from the CL :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is never going to happen: however, some Russian or Turkish club, then obviously they will...

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by murf »

blahblah wrote:Just imagine: they ban\suspend RM and Barca from the CL :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is never going to happen: however, some Russian or Turkish club, then obviously they will...
Not Real or Barce but I think they would sacrifice Man City to keep everyone else in check......

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by crispybits »

Or maybe even PSG (tho Platini would fight tooth and nail against that...)

The rest of us have to hope they pull someone up. We need that first case, that first bite from FFP. Once Man City (or PSG, or whoever) get caught and punished under it then it sets a precedent and that's priceless. Because once that is set any number of other teams can point to people who have unfairly distorted their leagues with massive injections of external cash and say "hey, look at these guys - they're guilty of the same thing and that's your own precedent for what happens. It doesn't even need to be one of the big clubs, imagine Atletico Madrid missing out on CL by one league place in a few seasons time and then putting the complaint in vs RM or Barca, or Lyon dumping PSG into the dock to be able to take their CL spot from them. It opens the floodgates and that can only be a good thing for everyone except the money dopers...

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

"Amended small print in the 2014 UEFA FFP rulebook, just published, includes two key changes; one allowing clubs to ‘plea bargain’ punishments for overspending, and another that allows other clubs to challenge those plea bargains if they feel the outcomes negatively affect them.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... z2s7A2eWvZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

From the Mail

Thats going to make things interesting, do think a few boardrooms will be just a bit less confident having seen the second bit.
Just about all the historical big clubs now putting pressure on UEFA to bring it in pretty much as written, having maneuvered there people into positions to make it happen, interesting to see how Plattini reacts.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

The second is plain crazy, imho.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Tacalabala »

Seems to me that they are inviting trouble upon themselves, the EU could well get involved. What I will say is that I think it's very hard to argue with a billionaire owner who comes in, throws a fortune at a club, and all the 'new' debt is leveraged solely against him rather than the club.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Darbyand »

Many of the Sunday papers have stories of the big English clubs lining up to challenge City if they pass FFP. Interesting. Maybe they will be everyone's fall guys.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

It depends how much influence City and their owners have with UEFA, imho.

It could even break down into Russian vs Arab vs American vs Home-own clubs; which is why I think it is crazy.

I would expect most\all of the three Prem clubs which do not make the CL to join in, well OK the one that finished 5th will...

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Tacalabala »

Dangerous line to tread though, especially for Chelsea and United. Should imagine Spurs are highly leveraged given this summer's intake.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Henry Chinaski »

Darbyand wrote:Many of the Sunday papers have stories of the big English clubs lining up to challenge City if they pass FFP. Interesting. Maybe they will be everyone's fall guys.
If you think City are going to slip up over this then you seriously underestimate the operation at Eastlands.

These guys will have employed the very best to ensure nothing is left to chance.

I would think UEFA will be scared to death of taking on such wealthy powerful people.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... news/sport+(Sport+-+Manchester+Evening+News+-+RSS+Feed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

Tacalabala wrote:Seems to me that they are inviting trouble upon themselves, the EU could well get involved. What I will say is that I think it's very hard to argue with a billionaire owner who comes in, throws a fortune at a club, and all the 'new' debt is leveraged solely against him rather than the club.
It was EU pressure that started it all in first place, as far as can remember, what has been put in place is pretty much in line with what they wanted, the "name" clubs have in my eyes tweaked it to there advantage, thats where I have problem with it and think name given Fair Play, not a true reflection of it.

Its the disguise of money being pumped in thats the problem, while I think a club with clout is unlikely to be kicked out at early stage of it coming in, do expect a fine to be imposed with a strong warning, regarding iffy commercial deals, and if say wage % stays at unsustainable levels from accepted income then they will act to ban.

Any who think that other than United English clubs have same pull at UEFA as a fair few from other leagues, regardless of owners deep purse, they are living in cloud cuckoo land, City owners brought in manager they have because he is non confrontational the last thing they will want is to take on UEFA, even if they got to me an unlikely legal win it would turn out to be a long term hollow victory.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

Were the EU really behind it? It seems to be against Competition Laws, and I would expect some rich bod to blow it away, just as Bosman did.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

blahblah wrote:Were the EU really behind it? It seems to be against Competition Laws, and I would expect some rich bod to blow it away, just as Bosman did.
Yes they were pretty much told act or have it imposed, for very reason you say Competition Law.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by Tacalabala »

But they appear to be crude instruments that they have put in place, at least to laymen like us.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

mikeg13 wrote:
blahblah wrote:Were the EU really behind it? It seems to be against Competition Laws, and I would expect some rich bod to blow it away, just as Bosman did.
Yes they were pretty much told act or have it imposed, for very reason you say Competition Law.
But they have used it to pull up the ladder, so to speak?

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by mikeg13 »

blahblah wrote:
mikeg13 wrote:
blahblah wrote:Were the EU really behind it? It seems to be against Competition Laws, and I would expect some rich bod to blow it away, just as Bosman did.
Yes they were pretty much told act or have it imposed, for very reason you say Competition Law.
But they have used it to pull up the ladder, so to speak?
At mo 5 Spanish clubs under EU investigation granted for state financial intervention, but principal similar. Spanish government not happy about it as they argue (my reading of it) football clubs involved key elements of national and local culture.
Results should be known sometime this year and would think have implications on how regs are imposed.

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Re: Man City and FFP

Post by blahblah »

I agree about with the Spanish idea: I would assume that a Council helping to build a stadium would fall foul of this sort of thing?

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