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Velvet Snow.........

A forum for Totel Football - the weekly tote-style fantasy football game
Totelfootball
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Velvet Snow.........

Post by Totelfootball »

Gameweek 18 will not be remembered for its football, the weekend fixtures were decimated by extreme weather conditions across the country. Only three games survived the big freeze, unfortunately only two of the remaining fixtures were included in our competition, resulting in the vast majority of teams being void. Nevertheless the competition went ahead with three quick thinking TotelFootballers earning themselves an early Christmas present.

Ahead of their clash with Everton, Manchester City were buoyed by the news that Carlos Tevez had retracted his transfer request and vowed to stay with the club. Everything was in place for City to be number one at Christmas for the first time since 1929, however in true City tradition Mancini's men managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Everton put in a superb display despite playing a third of the game with only 10 men, City had numerous unsuccessful penalty appeals before they slumped to a 2-1 defeat.

Tim Cahill was the star fantasy performer, amassing 17 points with another headed goal, an assist and a second best player award.

Gameweek 19 is now open for betting at http://www.totelfootball.com/affiliate/fiso/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, it will be the first of three competitions we host over the festive period. We wish all our customers a very happy Christmas.

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chrispyb
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by chrispyb »

Totelfootball wrote:Gameweek 18 will not be remembered for its football
No erm your quite right. It will also be remembered as another shambolic week for the game known as totel football. Are you serious with this post?

BTW I think I will pass up the opportunity this week thanks. But could you please pay me the money that you owe me from the GUARANTEED prize pool last week.

Thanks
Last edited by chrispyb on 21 Dec 2010, 23:21, edited 2 times in total.

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blahblah
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by blahblah »

Snow as velvet? :shock:

bennyc
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by bennyc »

You'll note when you click on the link on TF's message that it says the prize pool for this weekend is £833.

Which is exactly what it said last weekend......

......when they paid out around a third of that figure.

Unbelievable.

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Richt
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Richt »

The words "dead", "horse" and "flogging" spring to mind.

Surely no one from FISO can never take this game seriously again!?

Totelfootball
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Totelfootball »

This may sound very blunt to you all, but have you ever considered ignoring this forum?

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chrispyb
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by chrispyb »

Totelfootball wrote:This may sound very blunt to you all, but have you ever considered ignoring this forum?
Another piece of classic PR! We are your customers or potential customers :?

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Richt
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Richt »

Totelfootball wrote:This may sound very blunt to you all, but have you ever considered ignoring this forum?
And this may sound rather blunt in reply, but I assume you would like certain people to ignore this forum so you can try and pull the wool of the eyes of other members?

bennyc
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by bennyc »

Just got this from a TF employee who wishes to remain nameless -

Dear Benny,

Please refrain from publishing my name on a public forum, the message I sent to your companion was private. It is not your place to decide whether I would like my name published or not.

I must also add that I am bemused by your readiness to let all and sundry know about this issue. Just to give you a little background, myself and X have years of industry experience; unfortunately the nature of gambling gives rise to a level of customer dissatisfaction. We obviously do not want to court negative publicity and we would prefer if we never ever received a complaint, however my experience tells me that complaints are inevitable and that referrals to arbitration are unfortunate but common place.

We have made our decision on the settlement of your bet and we are confident we settled your bet legitimately. Your complaint may eventually be resolved by an arbitrary panel, in keeping with routing things to this channel we would appreciate if you delayed any further efforts to tarnish our repuatation until the matter is closed. If we send you private correspondance we hope you respect our wishes in keeping it private.

We will respond to your complaint in due course.

Totelfootball
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Totelfootball »

bennyc wrote:Just got this from a TF employee who wishes to remain nameless -

Dear Benny,

Please refrain from publishing my name on a public forum, the message I sent to your companion was private. It is not your place to decide whether I would like my name published or not.

I must also add that I am bemused by your readiness to let all and sundry know about this issue. Just to give you a little background, myself and X have years of industry experience; unfortunately the nature of gambling gives rise to a level of customer dissatisfaction. We obviously do not want to court negative publicity and we would prefer if we never ever received a complaint, however my experience tells me that complaints are inevitable and that referrals to arbitration are unfortunate but common place.

We have made our decision on the settlement of your bet and we are confident we settled your bet legitimately. Your complaint may eventually be resolved by an arbitrary panel, in keeping with routing things to this channel we would appreciate if you delayed any further efforts to tarnish our repuatation until the matter is closed. If we send you private correspondance we hope you respect our wishes in keeping it private.

We will respond to your complaint in due course.
What are you trying to achieve?

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blahblah
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by blahblah »

Snow is not velvetty :evil:

Velvet is warm, soft and luxurious. Snow is effing cold!

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Richt
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Richt »

blahblah wrote:Snow is not velvetty :evil:

Velvet is warm, soft and luxurious. Snow is effing cold!
But can be formed into balls!?

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blahblah
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by blahblah »

Richt wrote:
blahblah wrote:Snow is not velvetty :evil:

Velvet is warm, soft and luxurious. Snow is effing cold!
But can be formed into balls!?
Doesn't have to be, especially if they are velvet thighs :wink:

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mad dog
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by mad dog »

Never played this game.......looks good, whats the crack then? might have a team in this weekend :lol:

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Kdub
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by Kdub »

is the prize money guaranteed?

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chrispyb
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by chrispyb »

Kdub wrote:is the prize money guaranteed?
Yes Guaranteed Prize pool. That is the point here! They have now this week amended the terms and conditions (after the event) however they retrospectively have backtracked on the guaranteed prize pool for last week.

They have paid out a fraction of what was GUARANTEED and this i am afraid is totally unacceptable.

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tedbull
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by tedbull »

Richt wrote:The words "dead", "horse" and "flogging" spring to mind.

Surely no one from FISO can never take this game seriously again!?
Why is TF still allowed to advertise this game on FISO?

We see all sorts of activity banned on the boards Fixture lists, links to streams, libellous comments... yet an advertiser can con the site's members out of money and continue with the site's best wishes? :?

Have we had any opinion from admin or a moderator? I'd be shocked if this issue hasn't reached them.

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murf
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by murf »

tedbull wrote:
Richt wrote:The words "dead", "horse" and "flogging" spring to mind.

Surely no one from FISO can never take this game seriously again!?
Why is TF still allowed to advertise this game on FISO?

We see all sorts of activity banned on the boards Fixture lists, links to streams, libellous comments... yet an advertiser can con the site's members out of money and continue with the site's best wishes? :?

Have we had any opinion from admin or a moderator? I'd be shocked if this issue hasn't reached them.
Who says they have conned anybody? It does appear that way but we are not legal experts and TF seem happy with their rule interpretation / position and are willing to let the Gambling Commission pass judgement.

The things you compare it to that are banned on FISO are because of their (alleged) illegality.

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chrispyb
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by chrispyb »

[/quote]

Who says they have conned anybody? It does appear that way but we are not legal experts and TF seem happy with their rule interpretation / position and are willing to let the Gambling Commission pass judgement.

The things you compare it to that are banned on FISO are because of their (alleged) illegality.[/quote]

So whats you view then on a company guaranteeing a prize, who later pay out a fraction of that prize. They then amend the terms and conditions to suit them? Do you think this is right? and do you feel that you should be promoting this company to fiso members?

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murf
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by murf »

chrispyb wrote:
murf wrote:
Who says they have conned anybody? It does appear that way but we are not legal experts and TF seem happy with their rule interpretation / position and are willing to let the Gambling Commission pass judgement.

The things you compare it to that are banned on FISO are because of their (alleged) illegality.
So whats you view then on a company guaranteeing a prize, who later pay out a fraction of that prize. They then amend the terms and conditions to suit them? Do you think this is right? and do you feel that you should be promoting this company to fiso members?
Is that aimed at me? (i've tidied up the quotes above)

If so.... I was just playing devils' advocate. It appears like they conned you as I said but maybe (note that word) they were playing correctly by the rules.

Amending the T&Cs appears to be to clarify things for the future (the Gaming Commission will rule on the T&Cs as they stood). Surely a very sensible thing and widespread in FF games and the world when confusion arises.

I'm not promoting (or defending) anything - I'm just an FF punter and a FISO poster the same as you and most folks round here. I've never played TF and I certainly wouldn't start now.

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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by admin »

tedbull wrote: Have we had any opinion from admin or a moderator?
Not a game I played but having had a look through the topic I think this is a fair summary of what happened:

The complaint centres on gameweek 18 when due to bad weather only 3 matches were played resulting in nearly all entries being void and TF refunded these voidable entry fees which TF then said was a valid deduction from their advertised 'guaranteed' prize pool. Bennyc and chrispyb won the gameweek by targetting the matches that they thought wouldn't be called off and believe are owed an extra £320 because, whilst TFF may have meant for voidable bets to be a deduction from the prize pool, the terms of the game didn't actually specify that the return of voidable bets was a deduction from the prize pool and using the word 'guaranteed prize pool of 1,000 euros' indicates that this is what the minimum prize pool should be regardless of actual valid entries each week. TFF should therefore increase the prize pool by much more than they have and the winnings they have said are due to bennyc and chrispyb of £158 from the £2 stake should be enhanced to £478.

I've added this to bennyc's first post on his 'message' topic to speed up understanding of the issue for anyone reading.

If this is not a fair summary then please let me know what should be amended.

Assuming this is a fair summary then I think that TF are wrong in not compensating bennyc and chrispyb and would have avoided this issue by ensuring that their T&Cs were worded better and covered this circumstance i.e. whilst they didn't intend to provide a 1,000 euro prize pool (which was accepted as subject to a 20% deduction for operating costs) from their own funds if many bets returned they should have specified this in their T&Cs which I believe they now have to prevent a repeat situation. Also if a 'guaranteed prize pool' is offered then it should be clear that this is subject to terms and what they are - as per ASA rules. TF believe they are correct in their interpretation of the situation and Bennyc and chrispyb believe otherwise and are taking their complaint down the right channel and this will be resolved one way or another in due course.

As the complaint relates to specific not-to-be-repeated situation where both parties believe they are in the right and will be resolved by the regulatory body, I don't see any need to remove TF's right to promote their game on fiso.

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ronny10
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by ronny10 »

Chris, what is your stance on TF saying that they do not appreciate the opinions of posters that could harm their game and even suggest that they no longer post on this forum then :?:

I for one will say when a game is working well etc (player manager have had many compliments from myself) but it should also be able to work the other way :!:

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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by admin »

ronny10 wrote:Chris, what is your stance on TF saying that they do not appreciate the opinions of posters that could harm their game and even suggest that they no longer post on this forum then :?:

I for one will say when a game is working well etc (player manager have had many compliments from myself) but it should also be able to work the other way :!:
I saw the content and title of bennyc's posts before he toned things down by editing after my request and can understand why TF then reacted. Both parties and have then been in the wrong (re forum etiquette) with bennyc posting copies of private messages and names (now removed) and TF reacting badly to this (removed as well).

I trust that anyone posting will keep to the facts and be fair to both sides, even if friends of bennyc or chrispyb.

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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by pa102aw »

Ronny, do you remember when we were "conned" out of £2000 by the Sun after they changed their Star Man player announced on their web site to accomodate the different Star Man they had printed in next days paper costing us first place. I wish the Sun had been given the same amount of grief from the Forum at that time. :|

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mad dog
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by mad dog »

pa102aw wrote:Ronny, do you remember when we were "conned" out of £2000 by the Sun after they changed their Star Man player announced on their web site to accomodate the different Star Man they had printed in next days paper costing us first place. I wish the Sun had been given the same amount of grief from the Forum at that time. :|

thats because no one likes the BBM and it was probably kept quiet in a private forum :wink:

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tedbull
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by tedbull »

admin wrote:
tedbull wrote: Have we had any opinion from admin or a moderator?
Not a game I played but having had a look through the topic I think this is a fair summary of what happened:

The complaint centres on gameweek 18 when due to bad weather only 3 matches were played resulting in nearly all entries being void and TF refunded these voidable entry fees which TF then said was a valid deduction from their advertised 'guaranteed' prize pool. Bennyc and chrispyb won the gameweek by targetting the matches that they thought wouldn't be called off and believe are owed an extra £320 because, whilst TFF may have meant for voidable bets to be a deduction from the prize pool, the terms of the game didn't actually specify that the return of voidable bets was a deduction from the prize pool and using the word 'guaranteed prize pool of 1,000 euros' indicates that this is what the minimum prize pool should be regardless of actual valid entries each week. TFF should therefore increase the prize pool by much more than they have and the winnings they have said are due to bennyc and chrispyb of £158 from the £2 stake should be enhanced to £478.

I've added this to bennyc's first post on his 'message' topic to speed up understanding of the issue for anyone reading.

If this is not a fair summary then please let me know what should be amended.

Assuming this is a fair summary then I think that TF are wrong in not compensating bennyc and chrispyb and would have avoided this issue by ensuring that their T&Cs were worded better and covered this circumstance i.e. whilst they didn't intend to provide a 1,000 euro prize pool (which was accepted as subject to a 20% deduction for operating costs) from their own funds if many bets returned they should have specified this in their T&Cs which I believe they now have to prevent a repeat situation. Also if a 'guaranteed prize pool' is offered then it should be clear that this is subject to terms and what they are - as per ASA rules. TF believe they are correct in their interpretation of the situation and Bennyc and chrispyb believe otherwise and are taking their complaint down the right channel and this will be resolved one way or another in due course.

As the complaint relates to specific not-to-be-repeated situation where both parties believe they are in the right and will be resolved by the regulatory body, I don't see any need to remove TF's right to promote their game on fiso.
You've got members taking action against a service provider for not honouring a fantasy sports prize, with the unanimous agreement of their peers, and in your opinion with a valid claim.

At what point might you consider it morally questionable to point your site's members towards this game?

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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by admin »

tedbull wrote: You've got members taking action against a service provider for not honouring a fantasy sports prize, with the unanimous agreement of their peers, and in your opinion with a valid claim.

At what point might you consider it morally questionable to point your site's members towards this game?
It's not a unanimous agreement from what I see. Whether or not the claim is valid will be decided by the appropriate authority. I don't have the full picture/documents so can't decide for sure what the right decision should be but hope bennyc and chrispyb get compensation as a lesson for TF to ensure that rules/terms are fully displayed and cater for all eventualities.

Not at this point. There's been disputes with game providers in the past over T&Cs/rules (e.g. SDT) and much worse examples over the years and certainly some have been removed from fiso but TF won't be one of them yet.

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ronny10
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by ronny10 »

Mad Dog wrote:
pa102aw wrote:Ronny, do you remember when we were "conned" out of £2000 by the Sun after they changed their Star Man player announced on their web site to accomodate the different Star Man they had printed in next days paper costing us first place. I wish the Sun had been given the same amount of grief from the Forum at that time. :|

thats because no one likes the BBM and it was probably kept quiet in a private forum :wink:

DO ONE DAN :!:

I really don't understand you drivel surrounding a syndicate that you were part of but continuinely slag off.
We are a syndicate made up of Fiso members who joined on a first come first served basis apart from a couple.
Why would people not like us when we have previously provided numorous amounts of info to the forum what could have been kept private.

You even blame us for the downcurve of the Dreamteam forum :roll:

Why don't you waddle off to your new buddies and have a chat with them, well I say chat, I meant just quote what other people post in here. :wink:


ps sorry guys couldn't help myself

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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by bennyc »

Comments from admin seem fair in the main. Not quite sure why Chris doesn't see it as being unanimous though :? Anyone spoken in favour of TF apart from themselves?

As far as banning advertising is concerned I understand why this site wouldn't want to go down that road at this point. Situation not resolved and advertising as a revenue stream.

FISO are keen to keep their integrity but that works both ways. Allowing advertising for a game that has had its integrity called into question is fine but ridiculously censoring some comments (as occured last night) makes a mockery of an open discussion in my view.

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mad dog
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Re: Velvet Snow.........

Post by mad dog »

ronny10 wrote:

DO ONE DAN :!:


You even blame us for the downcurve of the Dreamteam forum :roll: FACT

Why don't you waddle off to your new buddies and have a chat with them I don't waddle I'm not over weight?

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