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Message to all TF players

A forum for Totel Football - the weekly tote-style fantasy football game
bennyc
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Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Anyone currently playing this game or considering doing so should read the thread below -

important-update-on-gameweek-18-t81807.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In summary my complaint centres on gameweek 18 when due to bad weather only 3 matches were played resulting in nearly all entries being void and TF refunded these voidable entry fees which TF then said was a valid deduction from their advertised 'guaranteed' prize pool. Myself and chrispyb won the gameweek by targetting the matches that we thought wouldn't be called off and believe we are owed an extra £320 because, whilst TFF may have meant for voidable bets to be a deduction from the prize pool, the terms of the game didn't actually specify that the return of voidable bets was a deduction from the prize pool and using the word 'guaranteed prize pool of 1,000 euros' indicates that this is what the minimum prize pool should be regardless of actual valid entries each week. TFF should therefore increase the prize pool by much more than they have and the winnings they have said are due to us of £158 from the £2 stake should be enhanced to £478.
Last edited by bennyc on 21 Dec 2010, 14:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Richt
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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Richt »

Thanks for this Benny. I read with interest the thread from a few weeks ago and was sceptical. But used my 5 free credits last weekend (week 17). Have also been following your thread from yesterday. (although haven't caught up with this mornings postings).

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Totelfootball »

The rules were followed and you were paid out accordingly. In effect, you staked £2.75 and were paid out of £157.00, not a bad return for such a farcical competition.

You are entitled to refer the matter to the Gambling Commission, go ahead we will see what happens. Admittedly, and not for the first time, our rules could have been clearer on the issue; we have learnt from this experience and made a concise ruling on future cancelled games. Gameweek 18 was very much an unforeseen circumstance and we did our utmost to stage a game where our customers could win half decent money. Although it would have been against our rules, the easy option would have been to void the competition before 3pm on Saturday afternoon.

In the meantime, or at least until the matter is resolved, please refrain from trying to damage our reputation. After all, you've made it quite clear that you feel we are doing a good job of doing so ourselves.

Disputes of this nature are between punter and bet provider, let us keep it that way. If other FISO users choose to play our game it is their decision, to your surprise it is not yours.

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Richt »

However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Totelfootball »

Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by bennyc »

Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?


Possibly from your message on this forum on Sunday.

The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end.

Re. your message above I will continue to warn people off this game as a direct result of my experience. Whether people will heed these warnings i don't know.

You've seen the consensus of opinion on both forums. Has anyone come out to support you yet? No.

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Richt »

bennyc wrote:
Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?


Possibly from your message on this forum on Sunday.

The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end.

Re. your message above I will continue to warn people off this game as a direct result of my experience. Whether people will heed these warnings i don't know.

You've seen the consensus of opinion on both forums. Has anyone come out to support you yet? No.
This and other comments / posts over recent days and weeks.

I am fortunate that I haven't actually lost any "real" money on here and have merely used up my free units. But the constant change of your t's and c's when you realise that you have c*cked up is unprofessional and some could even say cheating.

The quote that Benny has highlighted above is extremely ambiguous, in that you say that there is going to be a guaranteed payout of Euro1000 but then go on to say that there will be no soft xmas presents for punters this weekend.

You did post though that the prize money is guaranteed at 1000 Euros and that you will be making up the shortfall.

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Patrician »

Totelfootball wrote: Disputes of this nature are between punter and bet provider, let us keep it that way. If other FISO users choose to play our game it is their decision, to your surprise it is not yours.
Hmm, the internet gives power to the consumer which you are learning the hard way. I am suprised that you are risking the goodwill of your entire game here for a relatively small amount of cash!

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Totelfootball »

bennyc wrote:
Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?


Possibly from your message on this forum on Sunday.

The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end.

Re. your message above I will continue to warn people off this game as a direct result of my experience. Whether people will heed these warnings i don't know.

You've seen the consensus of opinion on both forums. Has anyone come out to support you yet? No.

The best course of action now is for you to take the matter to the Gambling Commission, let them decide who was right and who was wrong, if we are in the wrong perhaps then you can warn people off our game. You are not the judge of whether our game appeals to other people, similarly other people do not need you to form their opinions.

Given the level of your dissastisfaction, it may be an option to you to suspend your account and ignore this forum. We regret losing customers, but this appears the most logical solution in the short-term.

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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by Totelfootball »

Richt wrote:
bennyc wrote:
Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?


Possibly from your message on this forum on Sunday.

The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end.

Re. your message above I will continue to warn people off this game as a direct result of my experience. Whether people will heed these warnings i don't know.

You've seen the consensus of opinion on both forums. Has anyone come out to support you yet? No.
This and other comments / posts over recent days and weeks.

I am fortunate that I haven't actually lost any "real" money on here and have merely used up my free units. But the constant change of your t's and c's when you realise that you have c*cked up is unprofessional and some could even say cheating.

The quote that Benny has highlighted above is extremely ambiguous, in that you say that there is going to be a guaranteed payout of Euro1000 but then go on to say that there will be no soft xmas presents for punters this weekend.

You did post though that the prize money is guaranteed at 1000 Euros and that you will be making up the shortfall.
We did make up the shortfall, but from the guaranteed pool we deducted the sum of the void bets. By the way, we have lost money on this competition.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Certainly won't be ignoring this forum. This forum is designed to allow people to express their opinions about fantasy football games.

You have used it in an attempt to justify your decision not to pay out a guaranteed prize pool - as is your right.

I'm using to warn people about my experience of your game - this is my right.

bennyc
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Re: WARNING TO ALL CURRENT AND PROSPECTIVE TF PLAYERS

Post by bennyc »

Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:
bennyc wrote:
Totelfootball wrote:
Richt wrote:However, you will obviously pay the "original guaranteed" amount though won't you? As you are legally obliged to do.
Where are you quoting from?


Possibly from your message on this forum on Sunday.

The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end.

Re. your message above I will continue to warn people off this game as a direct result of my experience. Whether people will heed these warnings i don't know.

You've seen the consensus of opinion on both forums. Has anyone come out to support you yet? No.
This and other comments / posts over recent days and weeks.

I am fortunate that I haven't actually lost any "real" money on here and have merely used up my free units. But the constant change of your t's and c's when you realise that you have c*cked up is unprofessional and some could even say cheating.

The quote that Benny has highlighted above is extremely ambiguous, in that you say that there is going to be a guaranteed payout of Euro1000 but then go on to say that there will be no soft xmas presents for punters this weekend.

You did post though that the prize money is guaranteed at 1000 Euros and that you will be making up the shortfall.
We did make up the shortfall, but from the guaranteed pool we deducted the sum of the void bets. By the way, we have lost money on this competition.


Therefore the pool is not guaranteed but subject to change.

To put the word "guaranteed" in context.

Take Who wants to be a Millionaire as an example. If you get the £1,000 question correct you are guaranteed to walk away with at least that prize. If you get the £2,000 question wrong Tarrant can't turn around and say "actually that 1k question was a bit too easy we're only going to give you £250."

It's GUARANTEED.

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chrispyb
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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by chrispyb »

Absoloute shambles from TF, who in my mind have lost all credibility again and ruined what is a decent game by discracefull behaviour, amending the terms and conditions and providing shocking customer service.

This really does advertise how NOT to run a sucessfull fantasy football game.

I will say again the prize pot is GUARANTEED no matter how many people choose to play. YOU chose to run the game and should therefore pay out the GUARANTEED prizes on offer to me and bennyc. :evil:

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by pa102aw »

It may be beneficial to the organisers of new games to trial them for half a season on Fiso with a Fantasy Pot for betting purposes and then reward those who contribute the most with €100 worth of credits. This would save them a lot of trouble as we all know that the Fiso Fantasy Football Community is extremely adept at picking holes in the Terms and Conditions of some of these competitions, even the mighty Sun Dream Team game had to make an ex gratia payout because we easily exploited a loophole in their T&C's.

I'm disappointed that this game has apparently hit some problems as I have great admiration for people who have the testes to try and bring something new to the world of Fantasy Football, especially when they choose to pick Fiso as a promotional platform.

For the sake of the game I hope that this matter can be resolved amicably and that the winners get what they consider to be their just rewards. I also hope that Totel Football learns from this, moves forward and continues with what was proving to be a inovative and rewarding FF Game.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Chrisharry12345 »

TF, its not like its one person here disagreeing with you, its everyone whos posted on this forum and on the other one. Unfortunatly the way your t+c's are worded means you have to pay out the money. There was no clause stating that the guarenteed pool is no longer guarenteed in the event of cancellations.

The fact that you have added that now its fine for future weels but doesnt avoid that the gaurenteed pool of £833 needs to be paid out this week and take the hit for the good of the game

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Jim Royle »

What a joke im surprised fiso has anything to do with them very unprofessional outfit from what i can see :oops:

bennyc
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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Thanks for the support from people on here and on other forums - really appreciated.

Latest update is this - Chris emailed TF this afternoon proposing a compromise which would have seen a part cash settlement and an issuing of free credits for the remainder.

TF have flatly refused this stating that they have settled as per the terms and conditions.

Obviously Chris, myself and everyone bar TF disagree as a result we have sent this email to TF as the Gambling Commission require people to make a written complaint (and give TF a chance to reply in writing) before they will investigate.

Email -


The Gambling Commission state that a written complaint must be submitted to the company concerned (and a written response received) before they will investigate.

As per section 24 of TF's terms and conditions I'm submitting a complaint in relation in Totel Football's fantasy football competition (Gameweek 18).

The complaint relates to TF's refusal to pay out the full winners share of the £833 guaranteed prize pool in accordance with its terms and conditions.

TF's position has consistently been that it guarantees the basic prize pool each week and adds additional funds if game entries exceed the minimum amount. Every week TF have paid out on this basis.

Due to the inclement weather on the weekend of Dec 18/19 TF notified the FISO forum that the game would run but teams which contained three or more players who did not feature due to weather cancellations would be scrapped.

I entered a team which met TF's criteria for a valid team this weekend. This team beat the other 23 valid entries for that game week.

TF have refused to payout on the basis that they had to refund the majority of entrants as those teams did not meet the correct criteria. At no point did TF's terms and conditions nor TF's messages on the respective forums state that the prize pool was not guaranteed.

In fact TF made the following comments on Sunday -

"The total pool is guaranteed to €1,000 so we will be making up the shortfall in the pool. However, most of the pool will be returned to customers to pay for voided bets so the prize pool will be very much depleted. Afraid no soft Xmas presents available to customers this week-end."

This statement clearly states the total pool is guaranteed and that TF would make up the shortfall. TF's argument that refunding entries that did not meet the criteria permitted it to reduce prize pool is not valid.

The guaranteeing of a prize pool is a tool used to encourage players to play (as poker websites do). It doesn't matter whether 1 person plays or 10,000 the minimum amount to be paid out is guaranteed in advance.

If the prize pool can be reduced then, by definition, it ceases to be a guaranteed prize pool and becomes simply an customer generated prize pool.

For the second time in the last three months TF has amended it's T+C's after the event. Today (December 21st) TF added the following clause to it's rules -

"In the event that 5 or less games are completed in any gameweek, then the total pool will be reduced by the amount of the voided bets refunded to customers. In this scenario there will be no minimum guaranteed pool."

The fact that TF saw it is necessary to add the last sentence clearly implies that it had not stated up until this point that the prize pool was not guaranteed under these circumstances.

It's our position that this new rule change does not apply to Gameweek 18's competition as it came after the event.

It is our contention that TF should pay £478 as the winning share of the £833 guaranteed prize pool as per terms and conditions at point of entry. To date TF have only paid £158.

TF's final position on this in writing is required in order for this to be referred to the Gambling Commission.

We await that response.

Regards


Me and Chris will keep people informed as to the progress and thanks again for the supportive messages.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Exchanged PM's with Chris from TF last night and ended up getting personally abused. Did post the content on here but was asked to remove it by the mods. I appreciate they have ad revenue to protect but still slightly disappointed they made me take it down.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Giggs11 »

Suprised, benny

I'm not.



see the difference mate .......

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Kdub »

I am the Gambling Commision:

Round 1...

FIGHT!

Bennyc

vs

Totel Football (currently in the red)

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Kdub »

bennyc wrote:Exchanged PM's with Chris from TF last night and ended up getting personally abused. Did post the content on here but was asked to remove it by the mods. I appreciate they have ad revenue to protect but still slightly disappointed they made me take it down.
what kind of abuse?

did he call you a knob?

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Jim Royle »

Im surprised at least the other forums and sites have done the right thing and taken the banners off, they have obviously got more care about those who have been conned on their sites. It makes them as bad as totel in my opinion.
They probably wont like this either so a ban is coming up no doubt but ho hum :D Hope it gets resolved for you all the best.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Jonathan »

Kdub wrote:
bennyc wrote:Exchanged PM's with Chris from TF last night and ended up getting personally abused. Did post the content on here but was asked to remove it by the mods. I appreciate they have ad revenue to protect but still slightly disappointed they made me take it down.
what kind of abuse?

did he call you a knob?
Kdub, I seem to remember the odd rant from you regarding prizes on other games when it hasn't gone your way, so don't treat something as serious as this so lightly.

It is only right and fair that people are made aware of problems with any fantasy game, especially where cash is concerned. Bring back Fantasy Stakes! :|

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by mad dog »

Jim Royle wrote:Im surprised at least the other forums and sites have done the right thing and taken the banners off, they have obviously got more care about those who have been conned on their sites. It makes them as bad as totel in my opinion.
They probably wont like this either so a ban is coming up no doubt but ho hum :D Hope it gets resolved for you all the best.

here here, I'd take down anything to do with them, fantasy stakes was a million times better

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by mad dog »

Kdub wrote:
bennyc wrote:Exchanged PM's with Chris from TF last night and ended up getting personally abused. Did post the content on here but was asked to remove it by the mods. I appreciate they have ad revenue to protect but still slightly disappointed they made me take it down.
what kind of abuse?

did he call you a knob?

even worse....he called him a kdub :lol: the biggest insult :lol:

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by murf »

Mad Dog wrote:
Kdub wrote:
bennyc wrote:Exchanged PM's with Chris from TF last night and ended up getting personally abused. Did post the content on here but was asked to remove it by the mods. I appreciate they have ad revenue to protect but still slightly disappointed they made me take it down.
what kind of abuse?

did he call you a knob?

even worse....he called him a kdub :lol: the biggest insult :lol:
Crikey, I didn't think the dispute had escalated that much :shock:

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Totelfootball »

This is an honest summary of the personal 'abuse' directed at BennyC:

1. I accused him of being childish for repeatedly broadcasting my private messages to him on the FISO TotalFootballl forum, I had already asked BennyC if our conversation and future correspondence could be kept private.

2. I accused him of being self-important, my opinion was formed mainly because it was apparent he thought he knew an awful lot more about our game than our employees. He also referred to the ensuing withdrawal of another customer, I politely told him this was none of his business.

I apologise if BennyC was offended by my comments, but let's live in the real world and call a spade a spade, if you dish it out you must be prepared to take it back. I was not offended by anything BennyC wrote to me and he did not personally abuse me, however he has made efforts to further damage our already tattered reputation. The bottom line to all of this is a disputed bet, the matter will be resolved by a third party, if we are in the wrong we will honour the bet. Is there any point in discussing the matter further until we get a third party ruling?

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Thanks for confirming that you did personally abuse me and that I did not do the same to you.

I engaged in a discussion with you. As part of the discussion I mentioned a message you put up a few weeks ago saying that you didn't understand why fewer people were playing the game. I suggested that incidents like this were not helping the games image and that TF was alienating it's core market.

TF then belittled me for thinking that I knew about their punters - stating that very few entries come from FISO. I pointed out that most of the names on the leaderboard were FISO-ers and that one person in particular had done very well out of the game.

I was quickly told that this was none of my business. TF then questioned whether I had reached puberty (as witnessed and subsequently removed by a mod). I didn't dignify that with a response.

I will wait for your response to the complaint and take it to the gambling commission where I will raise a number of concerns about your operation.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by Totelfootball »

bennyc wrote:Thanks for confirming that you did personally abuse me and that I did not do the same to you.

I engaged in a discussion with you. As part of the discussion I mentioned a message you put up a few weeks ago saying that you didn't understand why fewer people were playing the game. I suggested that incidents like this were not helping the games image and that TF was alienating it's core market.

TF then belittled me for thinking that I knew about their punters - stating that very few entries come from FISO. I pointed out that most of the names on the leaderboard were FISO-ers and that one person in particular had done very well out of the game.

I was quickly told that this was none of my business. TF then questioned whether I had reached puberty (as witnessed and subsequently removed by a mod). I didn't dignify that with a response.

I will wait for your response to the complaint and take it to the gambling commission where I will raise a number of concerns about your operation.
There really is little point engaging with you, I'm not sure if you realise this but corresponding with you is incredibly frustrating; no matter what your argument is, you are always correct.

Abuse is a heavy word to be using, I don't think your experience compares with those who have really been abused. If you think you were abused then fair enough, but I've been called an awful lot worse and never felt the need to broadcast it.

The puberty quip was light-hearted. You were behaving like a little boy, continually posting private messages against my wishes, it was akin to something my daughter would do.

For the record you didn't just point out that one FISO user was doing particularly well, you named a fellow customer who was intending to make a large withdrawal. I pointed out this didn't concern you, something I maintain, I imagine your fellow FISO customer may feel the same.

Following on from this I imagine you will need the last word on the matter, I am fine with that; but after your response can we please leave this matter in the correct channel that it belongs? It is Christmas time and nobody wants bad blood at this time of year.

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Re: Message to all TF players

Post by bennyc »

Totelfootball wrote:
bennyc wrote:Thanks for confirming that you did personally abuse me and that I did not do the same to you.

I engaged in a discussion with you. As part of the discussion I mentioned a message you put up a few weeks ago saying that you didn't understand why fewer people were playing the game. I suggested that incidents like this were not helping the games image and that TF was alienating it's core market.

TF then belittled me for thinking that I knew about their punters - stating that very few entries come from FISO. I pointed out that most of the names on the leaderboard were FISO-ers and that one person in particular had done very well out of the game.

I was quickly told that this was none of my business. TF then questioned whether I had reached puberty (as witnessed and subsequently removed by a mod). I didn't dignify that with a response.

I will wait for your response to the complaint and take it to the gambling commission where I will raise a number of concerns about your operation.
There really is little point engaging with you, I'm not sure if you realise this but corresponding with you is incredibly frustrating; no matter what your argument is, you are always correct.

Abuse is a heavy word to be using, I don't think your experience compares with those who have really been abused. If you think you were abused then fair enough, but I've been called an awful lot worse and never felt the need to broadcast it.

The puberty quip was light-hearted. You were behaving like a little boy, continually posting private messages against my wishes, it was akin to something my daughter would do.

For the record you didn't just point out that one FISO user was doing particularly well, you named a fellow customer who was intending to make a large withdrawal. I pointed out this didn't concern you, something I maintain, I imagine your fellow FISO customer may feel the same.

Following on from this I imagine you will need the last word on the matter, I am fine with that; but after your response can we please leave this matter in the correct channel that it belongs? It is Christmas time and nobody wants bad blood at this time of year.


There you go with the personal comments again. Quite amazingly unprofessional. Throughout all this I have not made personal comments at all. Have I become very scathing of your business? Yes. I have been for quite some time. This debate about terms and conditions is not the first one we've had is it? But I've never got personal.

When a business and a customer have a dispute it's normal practice for the business to remain dignified and professional because otherwise they risk damaging their reputation. Your failure to adhere to this pretty standard adage has seen TF's reputation severely damaged. Comments to others on here questioning why they bother reading the forum etc. also seem really strange. Thought you might have kept your dignity.

In response to your annoyance about me mentioning another FISO-er withdrawing money. I simply made the point because you had implied that FISO-ers didn't make up much of your market. The person concerned has has made a few bob and spends plenty each week as well. I've known him for a long time and believe you me if he minded me mentioning it he won't be afraid to let me know in person.

You're right - nobody does want bad blood at Christmas. Another £300 would have made a nice difference to me and Chris on xmas week but then again this game hasn't been making much money and i guess your daughters presents have to paid for by some means.

This is as personal as I will get - I have spoken to Declan twice and he seems like a decent man who believes in weekly fantasy football and wants the game to succeed. I found him polite, amiable and knowledgeable. Quite what he's doing in business with someone like you I have no idea.

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