Rootin' for Joe etc...

[hancockjr]

Joe Root admitted that England "might have got their selection wrong" in the wake of his side's 381-run drubbing in the first Test against West Indies, but insisted that England would not be deterred from making further bold calls in the future,

Does this sort of thing annoy anyone else as much as me? This was not a "bold" call - putting Rashid in instead of Broad was neither Bold nor "Unbold", it was just a decision and it was wrong, at least in retrospect. Too often people hide behind bad decisions saying "at least it was brave" or "I could have made the easy decision" - just make the correct one!

It wasn't as straight forward beforehand without all the all-knowing hindsight we now possess. The pitch before the match did look mottled, blotchy and ugly and looked at least to the eye as if picking two spinners may well turn out to be the 'bold' decision that gave a significant advantage.

Now we know the pitch, heavily watered beforehand, started slow and tacky, too slow for any real problems for the batsmen once in, but did quicken up appreciably by the evening of day one and was at it's quickest on day two, ideal for pace, before gradually getting flatter as the match wore on.

It's not something that could be predicted that accurately before the match without hindsight and wasn't nearly as 'easy' a decision as you suggest.

We now know it was absolutely the wrong call and by the end of the second day looked very wrong indeed, we know now it didn't in fact give any significant advantage that would win the test match but exactly the reverse, we now know that four seamers was the correct call and Rashid shouldn't have played. We now know leaving Broad out was a clear error, we now know an awful lot more far more clearly than we could possibly have known before the match.

None of this excuses the performance one iota, even with the wrong team we should have played so much better. It was really the batting that badly undermined us.

Hindsight can make fools of anybody. If it had turned out the correct call he would have been lauded as a captain who was brave enough to make it.

Most commentators pre-match thought it looked a wicket where two spinners could, and maybe should play. There were calls to keep all options open by playing Bairstow as keeper and having four seamers and two spinners or dropping a batsman, whichever way he went it was far from straightforward, it was a very difficult decision beforehand and he chose the wrong option, it didn't have any effect on our batting and we should have adapted far, far better.

Thanks, I wasn't criticising the call, agree it was hard to tell beforehand (per above in bold type), just the suggestion that it was "bold" (which is Root/Managements way of making it seem "more excusable", I presume) - keeping Broad in over Rashid would have been no more or less bold. Broad was already dropped from the Sri Lanka series, albeit for a third rather than second spinner, although he came in for the third test when we mixed it up having won the series.

[liquidfootball2]

Duplicate post

[liquidfootball2]

England will ponder changes "in a number of positions" following their first Test thrashing in Barbados, with head coach Trevor Bayliss admitting opener Keaton Jennings is increasingly vulnerable.

After winning eight of the previous nine matches, including a rare overseas whitewash of Sri Lanka, we've had a car crash of a test match with the 381-run massacre by the West indies.

The batsmen were largely responsible, being bowled out for 77 in the first innings while our own attack looked ill-judged, with Adil Rashid and Sam Curran failing to justify their selections.

Bayliss will sit down with the selector, Ed Smith, and the captain, Joe Root, after the team land in Antigua on Monday to discuss options for Thursday’s second Test.

“I’m speechless,” said Bayliss, “I think it gets down to a bit of guts and determination to get through those tough periods. They bowled extremely well against us but we have got to be able to deal with it.”

At the moment Keaton Jennings just hasn't the technique to cope with quality seam bowling. He looks stiff and stilted in his movements, but in some ways does not look too dissimilar to Marcus Trescothick, as Paul Collingwood's analysis showed, it may actually be an extremely slight change that sets him right. A higher backlift worked for Bairstow and similar could for Jennings. However, trigger movements are necessarily altered too, hours of practice are thus needed and time not unlimited.

“Keaton is struggling a little bit,” Bayliss said. “You could look at it and say they’ve put on 85, our best opening partnership. And it takes two guys to tango. I’d be lying if I said we’re not worried about it and I’d be lying if I said he hadn’t been thinking about it.”

"He's one of the hardest workers we've got and he's going to leave no stone unturned in making it better. Let's wait and see."

On the two-spinner, three-seamer balance and Jimmy Anderson and Ben Stokes being bowled into the ground as Sam Curran, Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid struggled, Bayliss added

“You make those decisions thinking the five guys you pick are going to bowl as well as we know they can do. Take Stokes and Anderson out, maybe one spell of Moeen, and we were far from our best in this match. We have a bit of work to do there.

“It was down to Curran or Broad. The gut feel was Curran; he has done well for us over the last seven games. It didn’t work out like that, the young bloke has had his first bad Test in his career. It won’t be his last but he’s a good young player who will learn from it.”

Stuart Broad appears highly likely to return at the Sir Vivian Richards Stadium, his surprise omission in Bridgetown failing to pay off, while pace pair Chris Woakes and Mark Wood, and left-arm spinner Jack Leach will also be looking for a chance.

It was, though, the batting that let England down most in the series opener and Jennings is under most pressure, with knocks of 17 and 14 dragging his Test average down to 25.86.

"We will have some thinking to do in a number of positions," he said. "Every time we lose a wicket it [feels like] the beginning of a collapse.

"We will sit down, have a chat with the guys and try to get to the bottom of it. It's not the first time that we've succumbed in a short space of time. The boys are in the dressing room hurting, I'd be worried if they weren't.

England have had the happy habit in recent times of bouncing back immediately, and sometimes spectacularly too. It really only took a change of attitude and approach then, and Bayliss like Root will be wanting to repeat that here.

[forestfan]

Paul Collymore? Any relation to Stan?

[liquidfootball2]

Paul Collymore? Any relation to Stan?

Thanks, corrected

[Waikikamukau]

Happy new year everyone

Looking forward to another season of Telegraph Fantasy Cricket

Until then, you can follow some cricket today at:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/1 ... -third-odi

Admins....many thanks in advance....please update the thread subject to: Joe & Co Rooted..Again

[liquidfootball2]

Admins....many thanks in advance....please update the thread subject to: Joe & Co Rooted..Again

Until then, you can follow some cricket today at:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/1 ... -third-odi

Unfortunately there's little point, all very predictable, yet another massacre - 0-3, series over with still two to go.

No tests at all this time, not even a mini series so NZ possibly thankful for small mercies.

[liquidfootball2]

"My gut feel is that the person England really want to come in to play in the Ashes is Jason Roy - but you can't just fly Roy out here."

"England have been very good recently, winning eight out of nine Tests [before the Barbados Test] so it's not a time for absolute panic and doom and gloom - but they have some flaws."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain adds his thoughts on possible changes..

Spinners - if they again opt for two spinners then Nasser Hussain reckons England may play Jack Leach instead of Adil Rashid in Antigua as they look to rebound from their hammering inside four days by Windies in the first Test.

Leg-spinner Rashid was rarely used by England skipper Joe Root in Windies' second innings in Barbados, getting through nine overs for 61 runs as Jason Holder (202no) and Shane Dowich (116no) out on a mammoth stand of 295.

Hussain believes left-armer Leach, who took 18 wickets during England's 3-0 sweep in Sri Lanka before Christmas, could add Root greater control if he is selected in the second Test, which starts on Thursday.

"There is a question about Rashid, Root only bowled him for seven overs on day three and then Windies' part-time spinner [Roston Chase] gets 8-60 on day four. Leach is more at you all the time, so they might go for him over Rashid."

Keaton Jennings - Opener Keaton Jennings' place has come under scrutiny after he was caught nicking off for 17 and 14 respectively at Kensington Oval, leaving his Test average at 25.86 from 16 matches.

Jennings' average outside of Asia, where he has scored both of his Test centuries - one in India and one in Sri Lanka - is a lowly 17.5.

But Hussain feels the fact England's spare batsman, Joe Denly, has been featuring in the middle order for county side Kent could work in his favour.

"Jennings at the top of the order is also vulnerable - his playing of seam has been poor, so do they keep him in the side?" Hussain added of the left-hander.

"Denly has not had a lot of cricket recently because of the way schedules are with no games in between, and he has been batting in the middle order for Kent in [County Championship] Division Two."

"My gut feel is that the person England really want to come in to play in the Ashes is Jason Roy - but you can't just fly Roy out here.

"This is the quandary they have. They might stick with Jennings and then hope that Roy has early season form "



Other issues the selectors may or may not think about are..

Stuart Broad Broad will obviously return. Broad’s stock rose in his absence and he is often at his best when he a point to prove, like last summer at Headingley when he bowled brilliantly against Pakistan after Michael Vaughan had suggested he was no longer a first-choice pick. That is the case now and Broad has to accept it. Sam Curran does not have the pace to open the bowling and the harder lacquer on the Dukes out here means it swings later in the innings, so England need a bit more with the new ball. Broad feels in fine fettle, thinks his new run-up is working and did well in the warm-ups. Expect a recall.

Drop Ben Foakes??
What? Drop a player who was man of the series against Sri Lanka? Foakes, through his brilliance with the gloves, has upset the balance of the team. It is really why Broad did not play in Barbados. Bairstow does not like No 3 and is still struggling mentally to accept why he was dropped as keeper and worries about having all his eggs in the batting basket. Foakes had his worst Test in Barbados but remains a wonderful gloveman, easily the best of his generation. But what if you left him out, moved Bairstow back to where he is happiest at seven and bring in Denly to bat at three. It would be bold.
It won’t happen.

Axe Sam Curran??
Curran won his first seven Tests, was brilliant (mainly) with bat and ball and landed an IPL gig worth £800,000. A fall was bound to happen. He was done by a brutish short ball in the first innings that will have been noted in Australia. He took one for 123 and is a second-change bowler, not an opening one. The sight of small Sam bowling at 75mph with the new ball at the Joel Garner End was incongruous. He could make way for Broad. But how about adding pace and picking Mark Wood, or Woakes with his extra height, pace and bats (compared to Curran)?

[liquidfootball2]

West Indies have apparently asked for a quick pitch to give their pacemen the best possible chance of clinching a series victory in the second test. Although preparation of the pitch will have been well underway for some time, the wishes of the home team will have influenced it heavily.

The pitch once again may be difficult to read. West Indies overwhelmed Bangladesh on a pacy wicket in the last test here, although previously to that it had always favoured slow bowling. Hopefully this time the England selectors (Ed Smith, Trevor Bayliss and Joe Root) might read it correctly, if in doubt then for me looking at what might suit the West Indies real strength, their quicks, might make sense.

Whatever they decide is bound to heavily alter the balance of the team with even Ben Foakes under some pressure after a poor test.

Broad is certain to play, Rashid certain not to, but a quick pitch may suit Wood or Woakes rather than Curran and four seamers (with Stokes) would be the way to go. If another spinner was required then Leach would play, and with Ali being expensive then Leach may be in with a shout regardless of one or two spinners.

For all they might like to change the failing batsmen, there is no Jason Roy and only Joe Denly (surely a mistake) as an alternative.

At this moment and given a quick pitch probable, I would guess.

Burns, Jennings, Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Foakes, (Woakes or Wood), Broad, Anderson

[liquidfootball2]

Fascinating stuff from Rob Key who for my money is one of the best thinkers on the game around today..


Rob Key looks at why England keep collapsing, explains how attack rather than defence could be the way to prevent future capitulations, and assesses the ways county cricket can better prepare batsmen for Test cricket...

The truth of it is that you've got to give a lot of credit to the Windies, Kemar Roach in particular, because I look back at that batting collapse in Barbados and I can't think of too many bad shots.

If you go wicket by wicket: Rory Burns was unlucky, Keaton Jennings played a poor shot, Jonny Bairstow was unlucky, it came off his elbow, Joe Root's lbw - they never look spectacular but that was a good bit of bowling from Jason Holder. You go through it and from the frontline batsmen there weren't many terrible shots.

Conditions were pretty tough and what you need is some to come and try and throw a few counter-punches, sooner than Sam Curran coming in at No 9. Throughout the summer, Curran was so valuable to this side with his batting and what he has done is come in and played shots.

Ben Stokes and over his last 11 Test matches, his strike rate has gone from 63.77 to 45.43. If I was Root, I would be reminding Ben of his knock against New Zealand at Lord's, when Paul Farbrace told him that he would be batting at six on a green seamer and he went out and scored 92 at almost a run a ball.

Now you see him scoring less than half the runs in the same number of balls. I know it is tough at times and in Sri Lanka it was spinning, and you can't always score as quickly, but I would like to see Stokes back to his counter-attacking best. That is one of the things I would be saying as a captain.

That isn't blaming Stokes for the collapse at all, I just think that he is almost trying too hard when actually when Stokes is on top of his game, looking to smash you round the park, there is no-one better in the world at that.

I almost don't care if he gets out playing the worst shot in the history of cricket. I wouldn't care because he is capable of doing something extraordinary.

The similarities between him and Adam Gilchrist were very fair when he got the double hundred against South Africa and I want to see him get back to that. Let the rest adapt, let Root, Jonny Bairstow and Jos Buttler adapt their games, let him go out and look to do something incredible.

During a collapse, the batsmen who have been and gone probably feel the momentum more than the batsman going in. You're the most optimistic you can ever be when you walk out to bat, then you find yourself walking back wishing you'd done something else.


What it actually needs, and I'd imagine Joe Root is good at this, is someone to go up and says 'we're going in and before we know it, we're getting a good ball, somebody go in and at least go down swinging!'

That is a tough thing to do because all we ever hear is about how Twenty20 cricket has ruined batsmen, no-one knows how to bat for long periods of time now and everyone needs to look at Cheteshwar Pujara and how he bats.

That might be the case but there is no point in Root, Stokes, Buttler or whoever trying to bat like Pujara, they've got to play their own way and try and flip the momentum. But that is so hard to do because conditions aren't easy for batsmen at the moment across the planet.

So often these things come back to the domestic game and I don't think county cricket is doing everything it can to help produce top-level batsmen.

The best surface in the country is at The Oval. You can ask any batsman in the country and good bowlers like The Oval as well because it has a bit of bounce too. And who has produced the most cricketers for England of late? Surrey.

Yes, they've got an excellent set-up but they also play on a proper wicket, that's why Rory Burns gets runs, Ollie Pope has been around but you also have to know how to bowl to get wickets there so they produce bowlers as well.

Put it this way, our first-class cricket would be in a much better place if every surface was more like The Oval - it spins there too.

The things that have been done in county cricket - toss rules, no heavy roller - to try and help out first-class cricket, have helped in some ways and hindered in others. First-class cricket now is more intense than it ever was with the pressure on being in the first division and staying there.

That has really added to the intensity but, at the same time, there are not a lot of games that go four days. The result has become so crucial that actually it's become a fast-food version of first-class cricket where 15 or 20 wickets go down on the first day, then again the second day and it's done on the third.

I imagine most umpires book themselves in for a game of golf on the fourth day of every championship game!

That's not hard to change but there has to be a will to do it. I think county cricket is producing some seriously talented cricketers yet they're not having the opportunity to learn the longest form of the game because we're cheating the system a little bit.


Conditions have been tough for batsmen in county cricket in the past couple of years
Somehow, you've got to put a premium on the surfaces that they're playing on, The Oval should be rewarded for the surface they produce, which I'm sure they are in some way. But the problem is, when it comes down to it the first four or five rounds of the County Championship season are so early that it is near impossible.

I'd imagine if you look at the scores ion the first day of the season, in most games there will be five wickets down by lunch and that's not what you want. Then five or six games in, you feeling like you're just trying to claw it back as a batsman.

I have said that I'd like to see Jason Roy open the batting for England and the response is always, "well he doesn't even do that for Surrey!" I would argue that if you're playing in county cricket at most places, that doesn't prepare you for Test cricket anyway.

That Roy opens the batting in 50-over cricket against international bowlers on a good surface is probably better preparation than a lot of people are getting in county cricket at the moment.

As for the second Test in Antigua, I would have Joe Denly in there now for Jennings. Otherwise I'm quite happy with who is in there at three, four, five and six. I might swap Stokes and Buttler around, especially with the amount that Stokes is having to bowl at the moment.

The game is simple at times, pick five frontline batsmen, have an all-rounder at six, wicketkeeper at seven and then you pick your best four bowlers for the surface.

https://www.skysports.com/amp/cricket/n ... -in-future

[liquidfootball2]

As there's football on only a quick note on likely team from nets etc today

Woakes isn't being considered

Denly definitely is being considered and had a long net today, possibly in for Foakes with Denly at 3 and Bairstow back down the order or Jennings.

Wood and Broad likely to play

Should get Nick Hoult's predicted lineup tomorrow.

I think Burns, Jennings, Denly, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Bairstow, Ali, Wood, Broad, Anderson

Won't be far away from it, take your pick as Jennings could go for Denly too with Foakes keeper, looking if Wood plays Curran won't to me

[liquidfootball2]

England have named a 12 man squad


England squad: Burns, Denly, Bairstow, Root, Buttler, Stokes, Moeen Ali, Foakes, S Curran, Broad, Anderson, Leach

The headline is Denly for Jennings.

Explaining Jennings' omission, Root said: "It's down to the fact that we are 1-0 down in this series and feel that we want to make a change. We want to change things up at the top of the order and be proactive in making sure that we find ways of winning this series.

"One thing we did in Sri Lanka was we made sure that we didn't concentrate on what was happening six months down the line; we looked at the here and now. Having a very similar approach is very important; I don't think it's a panic selection. It has come down to getting us off to the best start possible.

"Keaton has worked extremely hard at his game and managing certain areas and I think that he will be back again, I really do. I think he's a fine player who will respond well to this and will come back and try to prove people wrong."

Broad and James Anderson - who have 1,003 Test wickets between them - could now be reunited in England's attack for the first time in five Tests. Sam Curran took just one wicket and scored 31 runs in two innings in Barbados, but keeps his place in the squad.

Leach has four Test caps to his name, taking 20 wickets at 25 runs apiece in those appearances, and Root said the Somerset spinner's inclusion in the squad offers the side a different balance.

"We've gone with Leach as a second spin option, depending on the surface, not because of performance throughout the last game but more because of the balance and how we want to approach things if we are going to play two spinners - having someone who can offer a bit more of a holding role," said the skipper.

"Adil's job when he plays for us is to come in and make things happen, use all of his tricks and to offer us a little bit of mystery. Adil is going to go home; his wife is expecting in the next week or so. I think it's important that he goes home and spends some time with his family and can enjoy that moment."

No surprise whatsoever at Denly after his long net yesterday or Jennings really as that option always looked possible.

Wood was apparently considered, but possibly with the batting failing so miserably they wouldn't want to potentially weaken it further. Curran is a genuine bowling all rounder, his first real failure with the bat doesn't materially change that, he is far more suited to the role of fourth seamer than opening the bowling.

Rashid would almost certainly have missed out anyway but is flying back to England with his wife expecting, he will be back for the ODI's.

Leach may play, but I would suspect with Denly and Root available as part timers to help Ali, it will be four seamers.

The West Indies will have an all seam attack, even if a non spinning part timer took a second innings bagful of wickets, pace had won the test well before that, it was virtually irrelevant for me.

If in doubt look at what the home side are doing should be the mantra, play four seamers.

You would think Foakes isn't in the squad to be 12th man so it probably looks a decision between four seamers or two spinners.

Should get Nick Hoult's prediction later, but the pitch was looking very green on Monday and the West Indies are known to want a quick wicket, my guess is Leach to carry the drinks.

[liquidfootball2]

Nick Hoult writes..

Joe Denly will be handed his Test cap by Sir Alastair Cook on Thursday as he becomes the oldest specialist batsman in nearly 25 years to make his debut for England after replacing Keaton Jennings in the side.

At 32 and after a winter spent carrying the drinks, Denly must have feared his chance for a Test debut had gone but the support of Ed Smith, the chief selector who is here on tour with the England team, and the stunning defeat in Barbados that made batting changes inevitable has handed him a golden opportunity to seal a place for next summer’s Ashes.

Jennings has paid for his inability to cope with sustained pressure when facing seam. If this was a longer series, England would have given him one more match to prove himself but they have been ruthless, particularly after seeing a grassy pitch at the Sir Vivian Richards Stadium that will make batting against the new ball very hazardous. Denly will at least be given two Tests, here in Antigua and St Lucia next week.

Jennings has paid for his inability to cope with sustained pressure when facing seam. If this was a longer series, England would have given him one more match to prove himself but they have been ruthless, particularly after seeing a grassy pitch at the Sir Vivian Richards Stadium that will make batting against the new ball very hazardous. Denly’s selection is about winning this series rather than looking any further ahead.

“It’s a great opportunity for Joe to show what he's capable of,” said Joe Root, the England captain. “At 1-0 down in the series I feel it's proactive to change things up at the top of the order. We're not here to look forward to the Ashes. We're here to win the series. We felt this change was an opportunity to really take that forward.

It became apparent at nets on Tuesday that Denly was in strong contention as he batted with the top order regulars and had a long bowl with his leg spin set to back up Moeen Ali.

Stuart Broad was named in a 12-man squad and will replace Rashid in the starting XI. Jack Leach was named in the 12 but England look set to play four seamers so Sam Curran stays in the side.

The pitch is tufty and been scarified for the first time, dragging up old dead grass which means it is likely to be two paced so hitting the surface hard again will be key, and should suit Broad.

England (probable) Burns, Denly, Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Foakes, Curran, Broad, Anderson.

[liquidfootball2]

Tbf to Nick I've interpreted his comments to give that possible team, I suppose he didnt actually say who would provide the spin option., Jack Leach or Moeen Ali, I wouldn't mind giving Leach a go ...

But combined with Root's comments on Leach

"We've gone with Leach as a second spin option, depending on the surface, not because of performance throughout the last game but more because of the balance and how we want to approach things if we are going to play two spinners - having someone who can offer a bit more of a holding role," said the skipper.

I suspect Leach only plays if two spinners and as Nick says four seamers looks likely.

[DavidLloydIsAHero]

That might be Adil Rashid's last test.

I'd be surprised if he is used in the summer and then we have tours to South Africa and NZ at the end of the year where I doubt we'll play 2 spinners. Sri Lanka again in March 2020 for 2 tests is possible but Rashid will be 32 by then and there is a good chance a younger spinner will be given a go there before the tour to India the following year.

[liquidfootball2]

W Indies won the toss again and bowling

Looks a very obvious decision, green pitch rain this morning. Root admitted he wouldn't have had any hesitation in bowling first but was unlucky to be on the wrong side of it for the second match in a row.

Very much a bowl first day and no surprise Burns out early.

Looking a fantastic toss to win for Holder.

Poor shot from Denly makes it 16-2


Really poor decision to take Denly on tour imo, Second division runs are next to worthless - Jason Roy's time is coming.

[liquidfootball2]

A scary pitch, Root helpless as it lifts from nowhere and hits the bathandle, ct off the rebound too.

A brute of a delivery

34-3, why wouldn't you bowl first?

It really does look a win the toss win the match, dreadful to be on the wrong end of it.

Every reason to get out on this, score as many as quickly as you can because there's an impossible ball coming

[hancockjr]

The batsman considered not good enough to play against Sri Lanka has so far scored 70% of England’s runs.

[liquidfootball2]

Bairstow showing the right attitude, hit out while you're still in, 51* from a total of 71-4

There's a ball with your name on

[liquidfootball2]

Lunch 78-4

England have had a very tough morning on a green and spicy pitch that has offered plenty to all the bowlers fully vindicating Holder's decision to field first.

Only Denly gave his wicket away and Root in particular received an absolute brute of a ball.

Only Jonny Bairstow has prospered in any way whatsoever, seemingly changing his attitude completely after an initially circumspect start, hit out before i get out became his way, perhaps responding to the situation as he saw it first hand and the tricks the wicket was playing on the batsmen.

[liquidfootball2]

106-6,

Bairstow went straight after lunch and then Stokes nicked behind.

Holder made his call to bowl for the very same reasons that Root admitted he would have bowled too.

I would imagine with the early morning rain the wicket will get easier and batting second on it is a huge advantage.

Every now and then the ball jumps of a goodish length for no apparent reason. You have to be aggressively looking to hit out on any seriously spicy wicket, hopefully they do get a chance later in the match and the fourth innings wont be easy, although with such a disadvantage up front I'd rather be bowling than batting.

With a low total to chase and easier conditions batting second, it's by no means certain West Indies will be batting last on this..

Starting a second innings miles behind has a pressure all of its own regardless of the pitch. The first innings can set the tone and a side can just get completely on top.

I can't really blame the batsmen, Denly aside and even he probably just chased it because of the wicket and the desperate need to score runs.

Its a devilish wicket and a brilliant toss to win.

I don't even think they've bowled particularly well on it.

[liquidfootball2]

174-6

Much easier batting as predicted in that session, the ball a little softer and older, the bowlers a little more fatigued and the sun drying out the green patches and moisture from the morning rain.

England will hope the pitch still misbehaves with the new ball but its looking more and more that the toss, as can sometimes be the case, gives an immense advantage.

Home advantage and more especially winning such a valuable toss is perhaps too decisive an advantage when all down to luck.

You can understand the Indians complaining at Lords especially last summer when everything seemed on our side.

This partnership is crucial but there is a mountain still to climb

Maybe the toss should be given to the away side, it had a big effect in our favour in the summer and is so in this series too.

[liquidfootball2]

187 all out

A clatter of wickets in quick time since tea.

Foakes extremely unlucky to drag on, Ali and Curran deceived by the extra bounce extracted from the quicker bowlers.

There is a major context to this score, it isn't Bridgetown repeated but an extremely difficult surface with up and down bounce as well as seam movement. Its unpredictability making it a minefield in the morning session

Anderson done by a good yorker

[liquidfootball2]

30 without loss (21 overs)

Slightly too short and wide from the England bowlers but only fractionally so, they didn't have too much luck. The openers should be commended for having batted with application and sense, surviving a difficult examination. They haven't got away but they will be glad to still be there, a great start.

The pitch did ease throughout the day, even if it's still by no means an easy or straightforward one. There's still plenty in it for the bowlers and one wicket could bring a clatter.

I do find it far too easy to blame the batting today and then group it together with the Barbados failure and say nothing's changed, they should have found a way. This for me misses the major differences and just how completely different it was, up and down movement, unpredictable bounce, shooting from a good length or keeping low, good sideways movement, all done at pace on a green and unevenly grassed pitch, adds up to a minefield for me. It's nothing like comparable and mitigating reasons are a plenty.

This was far from a normal tricky first morning test match wicket, but something altogether much worse, substandard would be an undeserved compliment. David Lloyd compared it to a park wicket with great clumps of grass taken out. It still has the ridges but the effect of early morning rain and a strong green tinge are going or gone.

180 for me was par for batting first, going by how the wicket played this morning, and would have been very competitive if the wicket had played that way throughout. It did ease as the day wore on and starting this evening was absolutely far more preferable.

Batting second, it isn't easy but nothing like as difficult, so perhaps 300 is a par score batting second.

Many will blame the toss perhaps because it obviously was a major factor, the mitigating circumstances were there for everyone to see. It just seems senseless to underplay it.

[liquidfootball2]

It was the Sir Vivian Richards stadium in Antigua in 2009 that staged the shortest of all the Test matches, as it lasted 10 balls before it had to be abandoned because the ground was unfit. A decade on, it looked as though the second Test of this series would have to go the same way - either to the Recreation Ground down the road, where Tests used to be staged, or else to oblivion.

For the rest of the opening day the odd ball misbehaved when delivered from the Sir Curtly Ambrose, though fortunately never by the eponymous hero himself. Had Ambrose been steaming in on home soil - which, after some strange process of scarification, is interspersed with blotches of grass - West Indies might have won by now, instead of being 157 runs behind with 10 wickets left.

The morning session was that brutal, testing hardly tells the tale, calling it simply tricky analogous to described a ploughed field as not great for football.

Even surviving such a brutal onslaught on this most testing of Antigua tracks to keep any hopes of a series-levelling victory alive was some achievement.

The toss was just that important.

[liquidfootball2]

On a difficult batting track, if not nearly as bad as yesterday morning, all the England bowlers toiled well and were desperately unlucky as the returns hardly reflected the play. Dropped catches didnt help but Broad getting just three when he should have had a 'five for' was a story in itself.

I said yesterday around 180 was par for batting first on that and 300 batting second, I don't think that's far from the mark. Its not easy by any means and all but Curran - who was unfortunately pop gun standard, bowled well without any luck at all.

Don't get me wrong, you have to give immense credit to the batsmen, even if they rode their luck at times, they were patient and showed guts. I always think however, that when facing a low total in slightly better batting conditions, it is far easier to bide your time, there is absolutely no scoreboard pressure whatsoever and just survival is perfectly fine and acceptable, it's all that's needed - take as few risks as possible because you can.

The conditions yesterday morning were so nightmarish, England could easily have succumbed in a session, West Indies sometimes bowled too short and wide, especially Gabriel but the pitch was so devilish it was impossible to survive.

When just survival isn't enough, batsmen have to hit out before the wicket ball gets them out, take risks as Bairstow did, Bairstow played the innings of the match for me. Survival is enough batting second and a completely different style to batting can be adopted in less treacherous conditions

For all that it wasn't easy later yesterday, or today, it was FAR, FAR easier than yesterday morning.

If EVER there was a win the toss, win the match pitch, this was it.

Winning the toss in the first test of the series was a big advantage for West Indies, winning the toss on here was almost like the game itself.

The nightmarish conditions of the first session yesterday won't come back, it was a tough break for England to be inserted and really set the tone

Psychologically, chasing the game from well behind is extremely tough even if conditions have eased, its nothing like batting second knowing you're in a strong position, the mental pressure is a huge added burden, the opposition are baying for wickets.

England have put up a brave performance in this match but once they lost the toss, it meant the dice were heavily loaded against them, they needed everything to go their way today.

It didn't.

[forestfan]

I think Curran’s a modern day Dominic Cork - has the energy and enthusiasm to make game-changing contributions with ball or bat, but not quite the pace to succeed on unhelpful pitches.

[Edmondson]

To sum up the series so far...England are shit.

[hancockjr]

This has nothing to do with the toss, etc. Post the "amazingly difficult early conditions" Windies have scored 300 and we're about to score 140. The Windies weren't so far ahead it is a false score or anything like that, where "giving up" is an acceptable option; we're just a lot worse, or playing a lot worse, or both.

The lack of faith shown in the batsmen in Sri Lanka, coupled with the false sense of achievement of beating an utterly dreadful side, is coming home to roost and England are being shown what their true level is - desperately average, if that.

I get that some people like to support England but in reality they are dreadful at the moment, inexcusably bad given the resources at their disposal, and paying the price for some very short term selection decisions.

[forestfan]

It’s just incredible complacency and lack of fight. I maintain that WI are no better than SL, both are equivalent to average county teams, but we should be a lot more at home in Caribbean conditions than South Asian ones. We win one away series and think we’ve cracked it, then put in one of the worst showings ever by an England Test side next time around.

Seven or eight need dropping to teach them a lesson. Fly some hungry youngsters out for the final Test and just see what they can do.

That said, we won’t start producing Test batsmen again until we stop playing all the four-day county cricket in May and September.