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Rootin' for Joe etc...

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Feb 2019, 00:16

hancockjr wrote:This has nothing to do with the toss, etc. Post the "amazingly difficult early conditions" Windies have scored 300 and we're about to score 140. The Windies weren't so far ahead it is a false score or anything like that, where "giving up" is an acceptable option; we're just a lot worse, or playing a lot worse, or both.

The lack of faith shown in the batsmen in Sri Lanka, coupled with the false sense of achievement of beating an utterly dreadful side, is coming home to roost and England are being shown what their true level is - desperately average, if that.

I get that some people like to support England but in reality they are dreadful at the moment, inexcusably bad given the resources at their disposal, and paying the price for some very short term selection decisions.
The highlighted text I completely disagree with and judge it to be so wide of the mark as to deserve an explanation. However having already given my view on it several times before I will not do so again

I really can't comment in detail on today as I didn't see too much of it with going to the match and watching rugby union which, with cricket, has always been my favourite sport. However, from all reports it really was dreadful, a truly feeble effort and predictable collapse.

There are no excuses or reasons that can come anywhere near adequately explaining why a side collapses in such a fashion, and absolutely it just isn't good enough.

However you really can't put aside what has gone on previously in the first two days and say it had no influence whatsoever on today's pathetic performance. That the tosses weren't important, that the tone hadn't been set in those two days and the match all but won already.

Just like the first test the match WAS to all intents and purposes decided within the first two days, not today, but before today. It is not beyond possibility that a side could have rescued the situation today but highly unlikely, overnight facing a likely deficit of well over a hundred in what was always likely to be a relatively low scoring match, was to all intents and purposes fairly hopeless, it was already over, and the match already gone. Yes there should be guts and fight shown, application and determination but it's highly unlikely any dominant side would relinquish such dominance anyway.

Don't get me wrong none of this excuses or mitigates against poor cricket with no real application or effort shown, it doesn't, but the psychology of teams' does get affected if one team is right on top, confident and buoyant, while the other is desperately trying to mount a fairly unlikely rescue, it's human nature and it takes supreme talent AND a really strong character to fight back against such pressure and odds, both in the physical and mental sense.

It's far easier batting second after the opposition has failed badly or even miserably, whatever the circumstances why, than it is to face a daunting first innings deficit when you start batting second time around. It's extremely rare in any test match for one side to gain such a supremely dominant winning position and still be overcome. Sides' heads do drop and winning sides are confident and think and play at the top of their game when their confidence is so high.

It's important to recognise how this came about, how the tone had been set and how one team had come to be in so dominant a position and one team so far behind the eight ball. The first two days were crucial in bringing this state of affairs about and the toss was absolutely decisive in it too. Both captains would have bowled for a reason, and that is precisely because it would confer such a dominant advantage.

Although at no time thereafter was it was ever easy for batting on, the wicket in that morning session of day one was seriously substandard, it really was, not every ball but enough to make batting on it a complete lottery. It did improve as day one went on and day two was much better as apparently was today.

The conditions of the wicket in that morning session were never repeated, the wicket eased up and although never easy was never anything like so bad again.

So of course today there is no excuse, but I've tried to give context to how the match had developed. It's getting in that supreme position of dominance that is so vital, and it's those initial events that deflates the other side's spirit, confidence and morale so that the match takes the course that it does, and the largely predictable events of one team dominating the other follow thereafter.

In the case of these last two tests, they have been very much result wickets, the tests have moved on at a pace, and everything virtually decided by the end of day two. In other tests this process does take far longer and day three, four and five can all be closely contested, however in these two tests the first two days have done so.

The toss in the first test did have a major effect but the one in this test was a lot more decisive. The effort and application put in following the first two days in both tests was nothing short of pathetic, even if events were largely irrelevant to the eventual likely outcome imo, make no mistake both tests had been decided by the end of day two.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 03 Feb 2019, 11:22

Playing down just how promising and bursting with talent and potential this relatively young West Indian side is, is a trap very easily fallen into. The rankings are virtually meaningless when they are based on the results derived on slow or turning wickets either abroad or in recent times even at home. Such wickets negate all the strengths of this attack and their batting has been a major problem for some time.

Although this tour represents the first time this side have made enough, and more than enough runs, have really held it all together so well, this is no complete fluke, their attack has been able to boast real pace and bounce from very tall bowlers as well as hostility and real menace on quick tracks for some time, this team always had the potential for something like this, but were time and again again seriously let down by their batting.

Their batting up to this point has never been good enough to make enough runs to give their bowlers a chance.

Now in the shape of youngsters and slightly more experienced batters from Braithwaite, Campbell, Hope, Chase and for me the real youngster of immense promise in Hetmyer, they have a nucleus of batsmen that can develop something special to make those runs in support of the real stars, their bowlers. Add in the experience of Bravo and a team well led on the field by Holder who hasn't put a foot wrong in this series and you have something.

The seriously quick pacemen in Gabriel and the developing young Joseph, aided by the skilfully executed seam of Roach and supported by Holder's swing and ability to shape the ball will, given quick and bouncy surfaces, cause even the best of batting sides huge headaches. It can be fast, hostile and intimidating, this attack is developing and will get even better, it will be a real force in the right conditions.

In the past West Indies have been let down by the continual mismanagement from their board. Add to this the relatively puny financial rewards to be gained from representing the islands compared to the immense wealth available from franchise cricket around the world, and you can see why their major stars have all made the switch to the T20 millions as soon as they are marketable.

Its a continuing problem for cricket in the West Indies, as soon as they discover potential and have the makings of a fine side, one, two and possibly six or seven disappear to the IPL or Big Bash to make their name and fortune. It is not something that is wrong or to be condemned, far from it, this is their chance to be really known by far more cricket following fans across the world and become extremely wealthy at the same time, of course they should go why shouldn't they?

Unfortunately though, its been the story of Caribbean cricket in the decades of decline since their heyday way back in the 80s, thirty years ago, before most of these cricketers were even born.

It's ridiculous to keep saying they are not Michael Holding or Malcolm Marshall, Joe Root is not Sir Jack Hobbs and Steve Smith not Sir Donald Bradman either, that generation has long gone, it won't come back and comparisons are absolutely ludicrous imo.

This side has potential, given quick wickets and supported by young batsmen who may, only now, at last be beginning to fulfil their promise, these West Indians could become a real force again right at the top of the game. The tragedy for their board is that if this side does continue on a marked upward trajectory, its likely to be broken up in the same way any others of a similar ilk have in the past.

This series has given the West Indians something to be hugely proud of, this team has come of age, it's to be hoped that it is able to develop and revitalise test cricket in this traditional bastion of the game, but unfortunately the odds must be hugely against that happening.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by hancockjr » 05 Feb 2019, 13:33

Excellent article in Cricinfo:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... ck-compton

Including a Joe Root quote:
'you don't win games by batting long periods of time; you win games by scoring big runs'.
!

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 06 Feb 2019, 22:55

Joe Root has had a poor time in this series at number four. The captain moved back to No 4 in the final Test against India last summer and scored a century in that match, following it up two games later with 124 in Kandy as England took a 2-0 series lead over Sri Lanka.

With Bairstow struggling to curb his attacking instincts so high in the order - as well as possibly keeping wicket in this test, a move back to three for Root is being contemplated once again as they try and mould room for possible ashes berths for James Vince - as an opener, and Jack Clarke at three.

Looking longer term to the Ashes, it is understood England are keen to see Clarke bat at three this summer for his new county, Nottinghamshire, and would like Vince to experiment as an opener for Hampshire.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 07 Feb 2019, 21:54

Stokes joins Foakes and Woakes on the injured list with a bruised heel.

This is a huge year ahead for both the test and ODI teams with both the World Cup and the Ashes to come, the pressure on virtually every match will be immense, key players needed and their fitness paramount. By comparison this dead test match is completely meaningless and should be treated as such, nothing can be gained by risking players.

Therefore no risks will be taken with anyone and it's likely all three will miss out.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 07 Feb 2019, 23:10

No Stokes, Woakes, or Foakes? We should call up Sam Vokes... can't do any worse I guess :wink:

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 08 Feb 2019, 20:36

West Indies have replaced the suspended Holder with real pace in the guise of the 20 year old Oshane Thomas - whose bowling has been recorded as reaching 95mph.

England, having already been badly beaten on this tour, could be perhaps forgiven for wanting it to be all over as quickly as possible, Thomas and Gabriel may well oblige them in that at least, it'll be a real test of fire and pace.

Fit again Ben Foakes is dropped to make way for another batsman, they're almost certainly chasing a lost cause but are nevertheless still searching for an antidote to their Caribbean Collapso sickness.

Bairstow will drop down the order and keep, but thanks to picking an unbalanced squad, a spinner too many and a batsman short, and with Root still disinclined to bat at three, they have little choice other than recalling Keaton Jennings to open - surely for his last ever chance as pace really does seem to be his personal nemesis. Denly will bat three and Wood will be in the eleven at the expense of Curran or Stokes. Ben Stokes will only play if fit to bowl.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 08 Feb 2019, 22:37

Jennings and Denly both being hung out to dry really, neither is likely to play another Test if they fail.

Wood might get more out of these pitches than the likes of Curran, but he's still a sicknote who hits the deck but does little with the ball. Maybe we just have to go horses for courses with the bowlers (think all ours have equine flu at the moment though...)

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 16:57

That really was a man swimming out of his depth innings from Jennings, out the same way so many times, he doesn't even learn.

He's good against an all spin attack, and great in India or the subcontinent, but has been found out against pace, time and time again. Unlikely to ever play again for England or at least not until we tour the subcontinent again.

What a major error it was in picking too many bowlers including three, Stone, Woakes and Leach (admittedly injury was a factor) who didn't even play and not picking a Jason Roy, James Vince or Jack Clarke instead.

A spinner less and a batsman more would have been better.

They had no choice but Hobson's choice, Jennings or noone.

(Only caught bits of it as watching the Rugby, but nothing on it anyway)

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 09 Feb 2019, 17:17

It’s typical these days for a Test touring squad to only include one spare batsman, and a number of bowlers for potentially different conditions and higher likelihood of injuries. Additional batsmen typically just carry the drinks. But with such an unsettled top order they really needed more options, with three keepers and a few bowling all-rounders there was surely the flexibility to take another opener.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 17:38

Three spinners was ridiculous imo - maybe hindsight but West Indies don't even have one - the part timer in the first test wasn't a recognised one.

Home teams aren't in the habit of preparing wickets completely unsuitable for their own attack - we should have known better - A major imbalance resulted

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 09 Feb 2019, 19:25

liquidfootball2 wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:38
Three spinners was ridiculous imo - maybe hindsight but West Indies don't even have one - the part timer in the first test wasn't a recognised one.

Home teams aren't in the habit of preparing wickets completely unsuitable for their own attack - we should have known better - A major imbalance resulted
In recent tours the pitches there have been slow. Add to that the success of our spinners in Sri Lanka and they probably thought the momentum was with us in those conditions.

Seems WI are trying to go back to producing quicker pitches given they have their best pace attack since Ambrose and Walsh hung up their boots.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 19:39

Mistake
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 09 Feb 2019, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 19:56

No surprise with their resources suiting quick wickets that they decided to play on quick wickets again

There is an element of hindsight and wise after the event but it does make sense for them to prepare pitches to suit their own bowlers rather than bowlers of a type they don't really have.

It's why i'm always so wary of rankings, they can be absolutely no guide whatsoever but just a completely misleading indicator which makes little actual sense and fools of us all.

Home advantage, if the pitches are prepared to suit the home bowlers strengths, and winning the toss can be a far far better advantage and guide to who should win imo. A better example can't be had than Australia's comfortable win in their recent test series against India in the only test where they won the toss and had home advantage.

On England, Jennings and Denly won't be back after this, but more concerning is Joe Root, he did make centuries against India and Sri Lanka but this attack has really found him struggling.

Maybe the pressures of captaincy haven't helped, but the last two series before this have been hugely successful ones for the team, and a winning captain doesn't normally find it as strenuous. Joe's form has seemed to be in a trough for some time, those two centuries aside, win or lose and whether he bats at three or four, he keeps failing whatever the position and wherever he bats.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 21:21

England 205-4 after 72 overs, Stokes and Buttler have unbeaten half centuries.

An extraordinary and quite disgraceful slow over rate from the West Indies - there should be 90 bowled in a day we'll be lucky of it's 78.

Extraordinary incident Ben Stokes out ct and bowled Joseph and back in the pavilion for 52 and the score 194-(5*) but it was discovered to be a no ball before the next ball had been bowled.

Result Stokes is waved back on into the middle and the new batsman Bairstow walking to the wicket has to turn back to the pavilion

Result - the score back to 194-4 and Stokes resumes his innings on 52 not out

Now 205-4

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 22:04

231-4 at the close

Although they lost the toss and were inserted, it wasn't anything like as big an advantage as the second test especially, but even the first one too, not a win the toss win the match this time.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 09 Feb 2019, 22:32

It was one of those toss decisions where they weren't basing it upon the conditions, but the potential mental fragility of the opponent. Joe Root did the same last summer at Trent Bridge when he put India in after their batting was blown away at Lord's, if I recall correctly.

Had it been the first match of the series, I'm confident Brathwaite would've been strapping the pads on - even if there has been a touch of movement throughout the day.

As it was I thought England did what they needed to today - showed the ability to do basic test match batting... Discipline. Wearing down the bowlers. Not panicking if they don't go at 4 an over.

Of course, nobody really got big runs and there will be some lads who are disappointed in their score - however the key today was batting for time (Burns, 100 odd balls, Jennings, Root and Denley, 50 each) laying a platform and as is so often the case, in the last session of the day, with tired bowlers, we had players in Stokes and Buttler to take advantage.

I thought Buttler was scratchy at the start of his innings and really played second fiddle to Stokes (the best player today imo), but eventually got the hang of it and caught Stokes up in the scoring stakes. Their partnership blossomed as the day went on and even though Stokes went back into his shell after the 'no ball fiasco' he should be happy with how he batted, his best in a while.

Now as they go into tomorrow, they need to buckle down for an hour or so of the second new ball and then, providing we aren't blown away with the likes of Wood and Broad at the crease, look to go and get 350+ because it is doable from here.

Do that, on a surface that is offering a bit and there's every chance we can win this test match. Which although ultimately meaningless in the context of the series, will do England some good.

Of course, Jennings needs to be moved on. His inability to get over his deficiency is plain to see. Had far more chances than he should've. It's like he's playing just because he's good at short leg. Denly doesn't look a test match player, but it's such a small sample size, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the Ireland test - barring terrible form in the county summer, although personally I'd move him on too.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 10 Feb 2019, 11:17

A good summary of England’s issues and muddled thinking here.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... ests-ashes

Also a good point that Bayliss and Farbrace’s experience of Sri Lanka made it easier for them to understand what it took to succeed there.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 10 Feb 2019, 14:21

forestfan wrote:
10 Feb 2019, 11:17
A good summary of England’s issues and muddled thinking here.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... ests-ashes

Also a good point that Bayliss and Farbrace’s experience of Sri Lanka made it easier for them to understand what it took to succeed there.
In general I think selection and batting are the two categories where it all went so badly wrong on this tour.

Jennings, selected in the now forlorn hope his success on slow spinning wickets would translate over here - on what they had hoped to be vaguely similar wickets, was never going to happen after pace and bounce were required for the home attack.

So yes the selection for this tour was woeful, given likely wickets and West Indies improving pace battery. Two spinners plus Root was plenty for the squad, Jennings shouldn't have gone and Curran isn't tall enough or quick enough for these wickets. If you have neither height or great pace then like Roach you need great skill and mastery of seam, Curran just wasn't suited at all.

As with me yesterday, George is writing with the benefit of hindsight and the squad's glaring weaknesses fully exposed after failing so completely their trial by fire and pace.

His other criticism of batting too frenetically and recklessly, four per over or more, has been taken on board and they've looked at themselves and tried to rectify it in this test match. It can never be a plan that one pace suits all situations, and indeed in the second test the toss did dictate the attitude, making runs then, as many and as quickly as possible on the first morning's minefield was right, it was impossible to survive long and the pitch on that first session was desperate.

In general, and where possible, it is always better for the very top order to bat straight and build an innings gradually, being more expansive later, although even here there are exceptions and Bairstow's fifty at three on the first morning at a super quickfire pace was just what was required and an heroic effort.

The playing of county cricket at the extremities of a season on wickets no different in colour to the outfield, in March, yes March this year, will only continue to bring wickets and no proper openers, there is no real pace in county cricket hence why they look to those who do face real pace occasionally.

Foakes was very unlucky indeed although his keeping, when back to the seamers hasn't been up to his usual standard, and the need to play Bairstow as a keeper looking forward to the ashes perhaps prevailed. Playing Foakes as a temporary non keeping opener may have worked, but there were no really good choices thanks to a thoroughly imbalanced squad. Roy, Vince, Clarke and/or even Pope should have gone in place of a spinner or the injured Woakes.

Forget the opportune reference to rankings, England were second about two weeks ago and fifth now - it is hardly of any significance and just plays better for him to reference them now. The rankings invariably paint a completely misleading picture anyway, it's about wickets to be played on, strengths of the teams, home advantage and often the most crucial of all, the toss.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 10 Feb 2019, 15:12

March first-class cricket is absolutely bonkers, more likely to be snow stopping play! Winter is coming for English cricket, quite literally...

Our strength, the deep batting line-up, works in conditions where the new ball and early swing are key, against fairly vanilla attacks - that’s when they can punish the old ball and turn 150-5 into 350 plus. But against genuine pace or mystery spin, or on a pitch with uneven bounce, you can’t expect the lower order to cash in, and you need genuine top order batsmen to battle through, as if you’re 60-4 you will be 150 all out. I don’t know where we will find them though. What’s happened to our South African scouting network? :wink:

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 10 Feb 2019, 17:52

Yes it's not too surprising home teams prepare pitches to suit their own bowlers and an away teams strengths will be negated or completely neutralised. Our bowling and batting is far better suited to home conditions even if at times last summer on seaming wickets, batting, and especially top order batting, was difficult for all.

Our biggest batting failures have all come abroad and perhaps makes our last two successes abroad in South Africa and Sri Lanka all the more creditable. We have a long standing top order problem

Sides of similar strength who play a large percentage of away tours will always be lower in the rankings than sides that tend to play in similar conditions most of the time.

Its a fallacy to say fix county cricket's scheduling and we will produce top order players, remember the 90s when they did, and we were blown away by virtually everyone. County scheduling changes would absolutely help but a top bowling unit whether real pace or spin in favourable conditions, at home and winning the toss, will always be heavily favoured, and there has never really been an answer to this.

West indies too have been heavily disadvantaged by being judged on performances on slow, spinning wickets. If, and they won't for perfectly understandable financial reasons, the West Indies could keep this attack together, then they will blow most sides away at home in favourable conditions. However as usual the attack will inevitably break up and they will have to start all over again.

This series has shown once again what is really important to winning test matches, and playing to your real strengths in conditions that maximise those strengths, will always matter far more than meaningless rankings which can often be so heavily unbalanced, full of holes and of extremely limited use
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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by forestfan » 10 Feb 2019, 17:57

In the ‘00s we had a tough County Championship top division, played at sensible times of year, with a decent overseas contingent boosted by Kolpak players. The cream of English talent rose to the top, and we produced players who could hit the ground running in Test cricket. They didn’t always have amazing county averages, that depended in part on where their home ground was, but the selectors could spot who had the ability and temperament to step up.

Now it’s back to scattergun picks from a weak competition like in the 80s and 90s. The scheduling makes things worse as it lets 70mph seamers dominate and gives conventional top three batsmen no chance.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 10 Feb 2019, 18:06

Yes absolutely we will never have players developing proper techniques when they play on surfaces where an out ball is in the next over.

In March or April, you see sides 70-7 and two or three day games aplenty, that's ideal for producing players who will want to score as many as possible in the eleven or twelve balls they're likely to have.

There is no puzzle as to why Surrey produce so many England candidates, the Oval is easily the best wicket in the country.

Somerset are likely to never produce another England batsman, that's not unless he moves to Surrey, Taunton might produce spinners but it also produces a batting lottery with every match.

March and April wickets in freezing cold or wet weather are a recipe for faulty techniques and big shots until you are inevitably done.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 10 Feb 2019, 22:52

After a poor morning with England losing 6 wickets for 50 odd, Mark Wood has inspired them this afternoon with some great pace bowling just before tea. 

It'll lead to questions about his exclusion until this game, as the Windies haven't looked confident at all against bowling around 88-95mph. But still, it's one of the great things in cricket, when you've a fast bowler tormenting the batsman with aggression. Usually it's us on the receiving end so it's nice to see.

A few years ago there was talk of Caribbean pitches dying, being slow and taking spin more than pace. No sign of that on this tour. It's been like the West Indies of my youth.

This is the only test where winning the toss hasn't been so crucial, in fact arguably West Indies should have chosen to bat.

The mistakes with selection, batting tempo and technique have all been well aired above, but for all that, if only Joe Root had called the toss of a coin correctly in either of the first two tests at Barbados or Antigua, then this series would very likely be finishing with a very different result indeed


..... but then there are always 'if onlys' and 'what ifs' and they weren't called correctly and it isn't a different result.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Feb 2019, 17:47

England 160-3 - 283 ahead

Edit - now in effect 300-3

England now miles ahead in this game and, as in the first two tests, it is following a predictable path once a substantial first innings lead has all but decided who wins the game. These runs aren't winning the game - the first innings 277 and Wood's destructive spell did that.

Burns was out of the first ball of the day falling away towards the off as he clipped it in the air to square leg. Jennings' test career is almost certainly done, at least for now that is, he added 50 with Denly and was incredibly unlucky - bowled after a ball drifting down leg got caught up in his trousers and deflected inwards of the thigh pad. When you are really in a slump with technique or form deserting you, Lady Luck tends to hear and puts the knife in too.

Denly out for 69 in his second test, has probably done enough to continue at three in what could well have been his very last chance, he now could be more than just a stopgap and in position to put his hat into the ring for the ashes.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by David Luiz Is A Hero » 11 Feb 2019, 18:17

Denly has thrown his hat into the ring, he'll still need to perform in the Championship in the early season but should he get some runs he'll be treated as the man in possession. They'll be a few eyeing that spot up though (Vince, Gubbins, Browne, Clark). I also think, despite how harsh it is to Foakes, that the balance we see now will continue with Bairstow at 7 and the new in the top 3.

Jennings is done. Regardless of how unfortunate he was today he just doesn't have a working technique at this time. Roy will likely get the gig unless someone really gets some early season runs. I wouldn't rule out Stoneman or Robson getting another go round. Bell-Drummond an outside bet as well.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Feb 2019, 19:45

Yes agreed, although being one of Ed Smith's picks, and with at least one opener finished, could play into his hands having only played two tests himself.

As for Atherton making the point of so many county games in between...

The playing of county cricket at the extremities of a season on wickets no different in colour to the outfield, in March, yes March this year, will only continue to bring wickets and no proper openers, there is no real pace in county cricket hence why they look to those who do face real pace occasionally.

How many potential replacements will such an inadequate testing ground throw up as competition? There is just too much of a difference in levels for it to be a reliable guide.

A batsman at county level could be averaging 50, but as we've seen time and time again with the likes of Ballance, Westley, Vince etc their techniques are found wanting when tested at a higher level, unless they radically change them the same faults will find them out again.

Denly averages 30 odd and plays second division stuff but as with Trescothick (averaging 20 odd when called up) and Vaughan, the selectors can sometimes disregard county stats completely when they are such a poor guide and just go on gut feel.

There is just too much of a difference in levels, there is little confidence in the county game as constituted now with no pace bowlers and 70mph seamers being prolific. Techniques aren't honed or tested properly and green wickets in March and April a lottery.

For instance i think they like Burns' temperament as much as anything having no real runs at test level to back it up. He looks to still have it in him, and admittedly the first two tests were on extremely tough surfaces to bat on, so he looks there to stay atm. He does however need a score to be a definite, and not only at county level either, as he seems to get planted right in front of all 3 stumps to the seamer coming from round the wicket. Test level again finds out faulty techniques and temperament and gut feel is just as important, I think Burns has it but the jury is still out.

Buttler was picked from white ball cricket as much on ability and character and the fact that he has experience against top test match bowlers albeit in the shorter version.

County cricket will no longer produce perfect techniques and the selectors have to look at players they think have the right character regardless of whether or not their first class averages stand up or even whether they play red ball cricket at all.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by hancockjr » 11 Feb 2019, 21:58

Trescothick was picked for his one day ability first, in the ODI side, and it was his one day performances that got him into the test side. He was not only a fast scoring opener with a decent average in one day cricket he was an effective 3rd/4th seamer at that point too.

Anyway with inconsistent selection, chopping and changing the batsmen, and people getting excited about winning a dead rubber (not on here especially) it's just like the 90s again!

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Feb 2019, 22:29

hancockjr wrote:
Anyway with inconsistent selection, chopping and changing the batsmen, and people getting excited about winning a dead rubber (not on here especially) it's just like the 90s again!

Who is getting excited, are you???

They know the series is won and this means nothing, so does everybody I listen to too.

Due to the poor initial imbalanced squad they had very limited selection options for this meaningless test and perhaps made the call on Bairstow solely with the ashes in mind and only one more test after this to get it right.

Jennings wouldn't have ever been recalled under normal circumstances but this test is meaningless anyway and perhaps Bairstow back to keeper was thought more important.

Trescothick's case just echoes the policy of looking to the wider form and their character and not just four day red ball cricket as well as not basing solely on unreliable first class averages - there are quite a few white ball specialists who convert well, David Warner being another.

I still think Burns and Jason Roy could easily be opening.

The series had gone the winners trophy should have been presented but they have the ceremony again after disappointment and anti climax - it won't change.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 11 Feb 2019, 22:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rootin' for Joe etc...

Post by hancockjr » 11 Feb 2019, 22:47

Yes, people I know (hence "not on here"). I wasn't even excited about Sri Lanka, remember :wink:

Agree should be Roy and Burns, in the Ashes.

The really irritating thing about this series is that England seem to be learning from their mistakes, but the mistakes are utter basic cricket lore that they decided didn't apply. But it did.

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