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GW1 BB

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GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 11:05

Not much mention of it this summer.

Is anyone else thinking about it?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 11:09

I have never understood what's the idea in this really.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 11:12

Catch or attraction?

Attraction:
It could be the only time I have 15 starting.
I can have Fab and Lloris with a few GW's to decide which to keep.
It can screw up squads trying to get to 15 playing and DGW's are pants.
I had a really good last GW1 πŸ˜‚

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 11:16

blahblah wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:12
Catch or attraction?

Attraction:
It could be the only time I have 15 starting.
I can have Fab and Lloris with a few GW's to decide which to keep.
It can screw up squads trying to get to 15 playing and DGW's are pants.
I had a really good last GW1 πŸ˜‚
Trying to get 15 starting now will screw your squad anyway, for example having Fabianski on the bench.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 11:23

They will both be on trial πŸ˜‰

I do have cash itb and the only hit would be downgrading Holebas to a 4.5m Watford defender, who would be upgraded to MU\Eve\Lei\Che as part of the GK decision.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by raoul » 01 Aug 2019, 11:24

One of the hard thing with the BB any time after GW1 is the need to create a team with 15 playing members. Naturally it is a lot easier to do this if the week before you have a blank sheet of paper, not an existing team (with 3-4 bench warmers who are probably not playing).

So a BB seems best either after a WC and in a DGW (but might then need some shift from bench to starting XI afterwards) … or in GW1 (in effect after a WC). No double GW bonus, and a risk of poor info, but no damage done (or actual WC use) creating the playing bench. And if the expectation is to use WC1 pretty soon afterwards anyway, it might perhaps have some merit?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 11:31

raoul wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:24
One of the hard thing with the BB any time after GW1 is the need to create a team with 15 playing members. Naturally it is a lot easier to do this if the week before you have a blank sheet of paper, not an existing team (with 3-4 bench warmers who are probably not playing).

So a BB seems best either after a WC and in a DGW (but might then need some shift from bench to starting XI afterwards) … or in GW1 (in effect after a WC). No double GW bonus, and a risk of poor info, but no damage done (or actual WC use) creating the playing bench. And if the expectation is to use WC1 pretty soon afterwards anyway, it might perhaps have some merit?
If there was an outstanding minimum price bench available it would have some merit, but there's isn't at the moment.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 11:34

raoul wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:24
And if the expectation is to use WC1 pretty soon afterwards anyway, it might perhaps have some merit?
Well it is there to be used when wanted\needed, unlike later in the season when it has at least been planned.

Also there are often hidden costs are Transfers are made to try and really use the Chip, which can be quite shite anyway.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 11:37

blahblah wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:34
raoul wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:24
And if the expectation is to use WC1 pretty soon afterwards anyway, it might perhaps have some merit?
Well it is there to be used when wanted\needed, unlike later in the season when it has at least been planned.

Also there are often hidden costs are Transfers are made to try and really use the Chip, which can be quite shite anyway.
Like your additional transfer for ditching your bench goalkeeper?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by White Tiger » 01 Aug 2019, 11:39

I always start crap, so I'd never consider this option :wink:

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 11:50

Finisher1 wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:37
blahblah wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:34
raoul wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:24
And if the expectation is to use WC1 pretty soon afterwards anyway, it might perhaps have some merit?
Well it is there to be used when wanted\needed, unlike later in the season when it has at least been planned.

Also there are often hidden costs are Transfers are made to try and really use the Chip, which can be quite shite anyway.
Like your additional transfer for ditching your bench goalkeeper?
Well it is only 1 and it gives me time to pick the 5th defender too, so not really a hidden cost - especially as I am aware of it. Also both GKs will only have 1 more match vs Citeh after GW2 πŸ˜‰

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 11:57

blahblah wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 11:50
Well it is only 1 and it gives me time to pick the 5th defender too, so not really a hidden cost - especially as I am aware of it. Also both GKs will only have 1 more match vs Citeh after GW2 πŸ˜‰
It is only one but it is also a very likely -4 points. What do you mean it gives you time to pick the 5th defender?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by blahblah » 01 Aug 2019, 12:00

I'm not sure where to go (as above) MU, Che, Eve, Lei etc so a Watford bod is a holding position due to fixtures....

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 12:02

blahblah wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:00
I'm not sure where to go (as above) MU, Che, Eve, Lei etc so a Watford bod is a holding position due to fixtures....
That has nothing to do with picking a 5.0 bench goalkeeper or playing GW1 BB though.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 12:27

I think you can pick quite astutely regarding the bench. Rico appears to now be a blinding bench boost option for GW1. If I thought Jordan Ibe was a sure starter with his pre-season form and the injury to Brooks, then it'd be a real goer imo. Other than those two, the final slots on the bench would be an additional 4.5mn goalie to effectively rotate with Pope until the WC, and the final slot would be a 4.5mn defender who rotates reasonably with Rico. This is the only realistic opportunity to do the BB before a WC clear-up, rather than the worse option, that being the other way round.

It is very clear (which is why there is very little love for a gw1 bb) that the points you expect to accumulate from the chip in a DGW is more than the points you expect GW1 but for me that's a minor concern. BB is generally quite crap anyway - you can't always rely on sure starters (especially with a gap between WC and BB near the end of the season) over 2 games and also rely on them having decent enough fixtures. (Brighton defence last season were a ridiculous example with a series of incredibly unlikely events transpiring). There is also the problem of carrying money on the bench- you don't really know how much until the time comes. Also, your squad would be a little different on the second WC if not planning to use BB. Using it GW1 doesn't have anywhere near the amount of potential drawbacks of using it later, for what, an average extra 6-8 points? Given how awful the chip is, I would have no qualms about using it. It's incredibly unlikely to be a big error.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by FootballFanatic » 01 Aug 2019, 12:31

I'm doing it. I'm just working out the best cheap bench for it. I don't intend to spend more than 5.0 on any bench player, the rest will be 4.5.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 12:35

Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:27
I think you can pick quite astutely regarding the bench. Rico appears to now be a blinding bench boost option for GW1. If I thought Jordan Ibe was a sure starter with his pre-season form and the injury to Brooks, then it'd be a real goer imo. Other than those two, the final slots on the bench would be an additional 4.5mn goalie to effectively rotate with Pope until the WC, and the final slot would be a 4.5mn defender who rotates reasonably with Rico. This is the only realistic opportunity to do the BB before a WC clear-up, rather than the worse option, that being the other way round.

It is very clear (which is why there is very little love for a gw1 bb) that the points you expect to accumulate from the chip in a DGW is more than the points you expect GW1 but for me that's a minor concern. BB is generally quite crap anyway - you can't always rely on sure starters (especially with a gap between WC and BB near the end of the season) over 2 games and also rely on them having decent enough fixtures. (Brighton defence last season were a ridiculous example with a series of incredibly unlikely events transpiring). There is also the problem of carrying money on the bench- you don't really know how much until the time comes. Also, your squad would be a little different on the second WC if not planning to use BB. Using it GW1 doesn't have anywhere near the amount of potential drawbacks of using it later, for what, an average extra 6-8 points? Given how awful the chip is, I would have no qualms about using it. It's incredibly unlikely to be a big error.
So you are going 3-4-3 with a bench of 4.5 goalkeeper, 4.5 defender, Ibe, Rico?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Billy Bongo » 01 Aug 2019, 12:39

It's an excellent idea and has been debated endlessly, the maths and logic works. Only those that have closed minds to anything different to the herd seem to question it

This year fixtures don't work for me so I'm not doing it

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 12:45

Finisher1 wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:35
Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:27
I think you can pick quite astutely regarding the bench. Rico appears to now be a blinding bench boost option for GW1. If I thought Jordan Ibe was a sure starter with his pre-season form and the injury to Brooks, then it'd be a real goer imo. Other than those two, the final slots on the bench would be an additional 4.5mn goalie to effectively rotate with Pope until the WC, and the final slot would be a 4.5mn defender who rotates reasonably with Rico. This is the only realistic opportunity to do the BB before a WC clear-up, rather than the worse option, that being the other way round.

It is very clear (which is why there is very little love for a gw1 bb) that the points you expect to accumulate from the chip in a DGW is more than the points you expect GW1 but for me that's a minor concern. BB is generally quite crap anyway - you can't always rely on sure starters (especially with a gap between WC and BB near the end of the season) over 2 games and also rely on them having decent enough fixtures. (Brighton defence last season were a ridiculous example with a series of incredibly unlikely events transpiring). There is also the problem of carrying money on the bench- you don't really know how much until the time comes. Also, your squad would be a little different on the second WC if not planning to use BB. Using it GW1 doesn't have anywhere near the amount of potential drawbacks of using it later, for what, an average extra 6-8 points? Given how awful the chip is, I would have no qualms about using it. It's incredibly unlikely to be a big error.
So you are going 3-4-3 with a bench of 4.5 goalkeeper, 4.5 defender, Ibe, Rico?
If press conference indicates Ibe starts, I'll be very tempted. They've just signed a winger though I think. Which may well knacker the BB idea.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 12:50

Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:45
Finisher1 wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:35
Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:27
I think you can pick quite astutely regarding the bench. Rico appears to now be a blinding bench boost option for GW1. If I thought Jordan Ibe was a sure starter with his pre-season form and the injury to Brooks, then it'd be a real goer imo. Other than those two, the final slots on the bench would be an additional 4.5mn goalie to effectively rotate with Pope until the WC, and the final slot would be a 4.5mn defender who rotates reasonably with Rico. This is the only realistic opportunity to do the BB before a WC clear-up, rather than the worse option, that being the other way round.

It is very clear (which is why there is very little love for a gw1 bb) that the points you expect to accumulate from the chip in a DGW is more than the points you expect GW1 but for me that's a minor concern. BB is generally quite crap anyway - you can't always rely on sure starters (especially with a gap between WC and BB near the end of the season) over 2 games and also rely on them having decent enough fixtures. (Brighton defence last season were a ridiculous example with a series of incredibly unlikely events transpiring). There is also the problem of carrying money on the bench- you don't really know how much until the time comes. Also, your squad would be a little different on the second WC if not planning to use BB. Using it GW1 doesn't have anywhere near the amount of potential drawbacks of using it later, for what, an average extra 6-8 points? Given how awful the chip is, I would have no qualms about using it. It's incredibly unlikely to be a big error.
So you are going 3-4-3 with a bench of 4.5 goalkeeper, 4.5 defender, Ibe, Rico?
If press conference indicates Ibe starts, I'll be very tempted. They've just signed a winger though I think. Which may well knacker the BB idea.
Personally I don't like 3-4-3 this season.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 12:51

Nor me. I won't be doing that post first WC.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 12:57

Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 12:51
Nor me. I won't be doing that post first WC.
So that's another compromise you make for the sake of GW1 BB.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 13:26

Well it's for a very short amount of time. If you look at the projected numbers for the whole season via various formations then divide that by the number of GWs we are talking about, I think compromise is a little exaggerated. Maybe will cost me on average three quarters of a point...Anyway, Rico is potentially a starter anyway but I wouldn't want to confine myself to a particular formation, I'll probably switch a little bit a few times depending on what players I want. No doubt 3-4-3 will arrive again for me at some point.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by raoul » 01 Aug 2019, 13:29

Pope/Fabs
Robbo, VVD, Holebas, Cathcart, Kelly
Salah, Moura, Fraser, Barkley, Dendoncker
Kane, Wilson, King

Not perfect, but a 15 man squad that looks good for the season start, could BB in GW1, gradual shift out of Watford and some Bournemouth (assuming not doing an early WC).

Looks workable if you wanted to go the BB route?

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Finisher1 » 01 Aug 2019, 13:31

Sutter Kane wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 13:26
Well it's for a very short amount of time. If you look at the projected numbers for the whole season via various formations then divide that by the number of GWs we are talking about, I think compromise is a little exaggerated. Maybe will cost me on average three quarters of a point...Anyway, Rico is potentially a starter anyway but I wouldn't want to confine myself to a particular formation, I'll probably switch a little bit a few times depending on what players I want. No doubt 3-4-3 will arrive again for me at some point.
I think having 1 or 2 additional forwards instead of 1 or 2 similarly priced midfielders/defenders costs you a few points per each gameweek.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Stemania » 01 Aug 2019, 14:17

I've never got it either. :?

GW1 is when we have least information about who the starters and formations are, especially the cheap players (who you would want on a bench), as well as the least information about which team is good and which isn't (especially cheap GK/defences, who you would want on your bench).

I've no great issue with deciding not to play it in a DGW once the logistics are clear, or even playing it on the fly when a great bench appears out of nowhere during the season. But, for example, Liverpool will very likely have an extra DGW on their own this year due to the World Club Championship (in which Salah is very likely to be a great TC candidate), so the DGWs could easily come under no pressure chipwise.

The argument for it I have long heard is that it avoids any perceived compromises of having to work BB into your DGW plan if you end up playing it there, but I've never seen a GW1 BB that doesn't compromise the team unnecessarily - and usually has at least as much as any DGWBB team in terms of bench cash. OK, there's a worse argument, which is just to get it out the way, but I think the previous point is the main jist.

Not mentioning that picking a rotating pair of GKs for the first few weeks, whilst also fielding two GKs with good fixtures in GW1, is usually a contradiction, for example. :P

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Stu255 » 01 Aug 2019, 14:39

Seems bonkers, I think you are better off keeping a very light bench for the first part of the season and only begin to allocate money to the bench when the DGW's start to emerge.

Also, I think people tend to overestimate the importance of their 11th best player and underestimate the importance of their captain. Last season, during the BGW and DGW period, I saw a few people tearing up their team and taking hits just to make sure they had 11 players on the field. In any given GW there are usually 3 or 4 players who get over half your points.

Also in BGW's there are actually less points available so the 11th man is even less valuable.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 15:03

Well we could do a points expectation... remember last season with Brighton DGW, where virtually nothing was expected from Wolves(A) Spurs(A), with good reason. That's the kind of potential we save our BB for - the double fixtures are unknown??

Sometimes I look at my team of xi and think there's other players I'd want and can only have in a BB. I think it also depends on one's previous experiences of BB bench scores post WC2 (it might be that I can't fruitfully manage the BB at that time because my bench scores have been dreadful nearly every year). And I would also argue that accurate information at the end of the season can be very precarious too so lack of info is a moot point imo.

There is also the timing of the first WC to factor in. If you are of the opinion that you want to last as long as possible, then a GW1 BB is out of the question. If you feel like me (and Patrician to a certain extent) that there is time limit (or window) such that if you leave it too late, it becomes more and more worthless, then a plan to use it early plays into not carrying that squad for very long at all.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 15:10

raoul wrote: ↑
01 Aug 2019, 13:29
Pope/Fabs
Robbo, VVD, Holebas, Cathcart, Kelly
Salah, Moura, Fraser, Barkley, Dendoncker
Kane, Wilson, King

Not perfect, but a 15 man squad that looks good for the season start, could BB in GW1, gradual shift out of Watford and some Bournemouth (assuming not doing an early WC).

Looks workable if you wanted to go the BB route?
I couldn't play Dendoncker in a BB and I wouldn't spend that much on keepers. I like the Watford picks although Pereyra/Duelofeu would also be in my thinking.

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Re: GW1 BB

Post by Sutter Kane » 01 Aug 2019, 15:12

The current lack of a third striker I like is putting me off the BB though, which has always been the problem. Greenwood could have made that a lot nicer situation but it's not looking that way...

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