RIP Premiership Predictions / FISO Goals

[admin]

Is it possible the email is an elaborate hoax?

Pretty elaborate if it is.

For those that are interested here is some background reading about the copyright issue of EPL Fixtures which has been going on for years:
http://www.fiso.co.uk/articles/232/Lega ... tures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know it's a shame for you guys to lose the game (at least until the courts rule against the FA/Dataco) but I don't want to run the risk of them taking action against me or FISO Ltd. Forking out a few grand or so a year to licence fixtures that only fiso members can see for a game that only a few hundred people are playing is also not an option.

As an aside, one of the impacts of the FA/Dataco's actions is of course that it's own Fantasy Football game (FPL) goes from strength to strength because smaller games cannot afford the fixture licence fee - so FPL has very little competition apart from a few games run by newspapers (plus OFL). Bit of unfair competition for the smaller guys.


Copy of the email received (no mention from Jack that I couldn't publish it and I suspect they'll be happy about the 'word of Dataco being spread'):

'Dear Sirs,

NetResult Internal Reference: DataCo_NRID 08988

We write on behalf of the Football Data Co Limited which is the appointed
licensee of the FA Premier League, the Football League, the Scottish Premier
League and the Scottish Football League ("the Leagues") in respect of the
licensing of certain intellectual property rights of the Leagues, including
those in Fantasy Football Games, for use by third parties.

We have noticed that your website
http://fiso.co.uk/games/pred/modules.ph ... redictions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
is displaying Football Fixtures in connection with a Fantasy Football
Prediction Game without permission. In order to display this content you
must obtain the necessary licence from Football DataCo Limited.

If you have inadvertently infringed our clients' copyright please take
immediate steps to contact Football DataCo (Email:
jcasbon@football-dataco.com) to obtain the appropriate licence. Please
confirm to us by e-mail that you are now seeking an appropriate licence.
Because of the time sensitive nature of the Fixture Lists you are required
to remove them immediately from your site pending the granting of a licence.

We wish to make you aware that we have a good faith belief that your present
use is an infringement of the Leagues' legal rights and that all such
unauthorised use must cease immediately. Please confirm by return your
agreement to this and give your undertaking to cease all such infringements
on any and all of your web sites. Pending your response the Leagues' rights
are fully reserved.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Yours faithfully,

Jack Newton


NetResult
A Division of Projector NetResult Ltd
Broadway House,
2-6 Fulham Broadway,
London,
SW6 1AA
http://www.nr-online.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and copy of signed attached pdf letter on Football Dataco letterhead:


TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

28 January 2010

Dear Sirs

NetResults Limited

I am the General Manager of Football DataCo Limited.

Football DataCo Limited is owned by The FA Premier League Limited and The Football League
Limited and was established for the purpose of developing, commercially exploiting and protecting
their intellectual property rights in the fixture lists, data and still-images on a worldwide basis.

Under separate agreements the Scottish Premier League Limited and The Scottish Football League
have appointed Football DataCo Limited to develop, commercially exploit and protect their
intellectual property rights in the fixture lists and data on a worldwide basis.
Football DataCo Limited requires any third party that wishes to use or reproduce the fixture lists,
data or photographs to obtain the appropriate licence and pay the appropriate fee(s).

I hereby confirm that NetResult, a Division of Projector NetResults Ltd of Broadway House, 2-6
Fulham Broadway, London SW6 1AA is authorised to undertake the following tasks for and on
behalf of Football DataCo Limited:

• Identify infringements of the intellectual property rights in the fixture lists and data owned by
the respective football league(s).

• Take appropriate action to prevent the unauthorised use of the fixture lists and data by
unlicensed third parties.

• Identify unlicensed use of photographs from football matches that take place under the
auspices of the respective football league(s).

• Take appropriate action to prevent the unauthorised use of photographs by unlicensed third
parties.

Should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours faithfully

David Folker

for and on behalf of Football DataCo Limited'

[barry]

so is

Everton at home to Fulham
Man U at home to Arsenal
etc etc

a breach?

I'm sure I mentioned it to my mate the other night "Did you see the Liverpool v Spurs game?" - should I go turn myself in straight away.....

[admin]

so is

Everton at home to Fulham
Man U at home to Arsenal
etc etc

a breach?

I'm sure I mentioned it to my mate the other night "Did you see the Liverpool v Spurs game?" - should I go turn myself in straight away.....

Dataco's view (not necessarily what the true legal position is though):

Fixtures
® In the UK the leagues have a copyright in their fixtures which the leagues choose to apply to future fixtures listings
® Fixtures used once the match has finished are allowed
® A single fixture appearing as a match preview editorial is allowed in advance of the match – attempting to string several fixtures together in an editorial format is not allowed

from http://www.fiso.co.uk/articles/232/Lega ... tures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[eagle224]

The web is littered with other sites who have had the same letter over the years. They rigorously pursue anyone they deem to be breaching their interests. It's obviously taken them a while to find FISO Goals. Don't you need an account to see FISO Goals?

If you go to their site and follow the links to the fixture licensing, for internet publication in chronological order of fixtures, it would cost £4,244 (ex. VAT) per year

I bet they even charge the football clubs for the rights to publish their own fixtures as assigned to them by the league - I notice DataCo copyright notices are on all club fixture web pages.

If DataCo win the case, would it be possible to review the way FISO Goals is presented for entry next year or is re-development too much?

[MarquisMark]

A few cases appearing on Google with similar wording in the letters with similar direction to this thread

The bit I'm really interested in tho, is the use of your own name or aliases for the teams, or in the case of the thread I found here anagrams

The excerpt that caught my eye:

Then we got onto our tongue in cheek tactic of removing the fixtures, but displaying anagrams....

He admitted in all honesty, he didn't actually know where they stood legally, despite making it clear in past correspondence that we were breaking the law and infringing on their rights by displaying anagrams which could (with some work) be decifered to make team names. He went on to say, that he'd looked into it and there hadn't been a previous case in UK courts, but they were willing to go to court find out the answer (in order to protect an important revenue stream)

How about changing each team name to their captain.

Fabregas v Shawcross this weekend

[Bramernic]

I've found this interesting page: http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/ro ... o-CJEU.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Previous case law has determined independant data to be a complete fixture i.e. the teams playing, venue and date. ...

Can we not remove the dates from this application completely so that the program says something like "Next/current set of fixtures is 18"? It would be up to the participants to select their predictions in time. Also, if the fixtures in each set were to be ordered alphabetically rather than in kick-off order that might further remove them as being a source of fixtures. Obviously the admin side would need to be able to set dates and times, but as that isn't a publicly accessible (even with a login) page it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm so glad my fixture grid doesn't indicate home/away so the venue can't be determined (until such time as two sides share a ground and play as the only match on a Monday night ).

[murf]

I didn't think it showed the date?

Just the set number and a list of matches.

(EDIT - it shows the set start date but we don't really need that)

[Bramernic]

Yes, it showed the start date and the fixtures were in the order they would be played. I'm suggesting losing the start date and ordering all the fixtures within a set alphabetically rather than chronologically.

[Knulpuk]

Another option - could we just number the teams and use the numbers - eg wigan = 17 - soon get used to it?

[admin]

Don't you need an account to see FISO Goals?

Yes you do. You can only get to FISO Goals if you've signed in to fiso. They would have had to register to see that there were fixture sets.

[admin]

My first season playing FISO GOALS and because i'm top you go and pull the plug through pure jealousy.

Assuming we don't restart FISO Goals before the end of the season then you are the 2010/11 winner. Well done.

[blahblah]

Sounds like the Newspapers are behind this, to protect their revenue streams from FF games.

[Spencer4]

I work for a press organisation and can say, through over a decade of dealings with this lot, that they are a parasite, feeding off the newspapers and restricting uses of data and photos.

Each year they try something a little more restrictive that has the lawyers jump to attention. I don't think they'll be happy until they control every last piece of info, whether that be a match report, a fixture list or a photo of a player or corner flag. Their real agenda is to earn money, squeezing the freedoms of the press as much as they can. They are detestable organisation, the very worst of what we now have in this country, a litigious, evil bunch of saddos. I actually have the home address of one of their lot, come the glorious day... .

[admin]

Sounds like the Newspapers are behind this, to protect their revenue streams from FF games.

As the cat indicates, this is not the case.

I seem to remember one of the newspapers falling out with them and for a period of time on the photos they included in their paper blanked out all the sponsors names on footballers' shirts (and obviously the sponsors weren't happy that the FA, via their licensing company, had upset the paper).

[Jester]

Yes, it showed the start date and the fixtures were in the order they would be played. I'm suggesting losing the start date and ordering all the fixtures within a set alphabetically rather than chronologically.

The fixtures are listed in the order I enter them, and I enter them in order of kick off time deliberately.
It would be just as easy to enter them alphabetically - is this a possible solution?


Also I see pussy features has modified his game in a particular way - could we do this for Goals!
We would have to restrict it to players who have a certain minimum number of posts perhaps, but at least the game could go on.

A quick decision and I could have the 'list of games' up again in a jiffy!

[MarquisMark]

Get some new hosting and change all the team names, that's what I say

Host it independently from FISO so that there is no liability on FISO's behalf.

Put it on a new domain, get basic hosting (Webhost UK's Basic package- £15/year for Linux, £25 a year for Windows)

Could stick it on one of my pro-Linux packages with some space but then that moves control of it to someone else which is not ideal - but if someone were to sign up for a package listed above, and then grab the code/database it'd all be sorted. Would assist in any help needed for that F.O.C. if needed

If Admin wants to either have the game on FISO or not at all then of course that's fair enough, and that's the end of that idea

Then of course comes the issue of whether or not you are infringing on their rights - and to me it looks like you could get away with it as it seems it's enough of a grey area for them not to take to court

They're more concerned about the giving out of info itself rather than playing 'silly' games with it I'd imagine?

[Digsby]

The world's gone mad....good luck Chris, hope something gets sorted.

[TheTon]

Gutted

At least i squeezed out an Early Doors Cup win at the start of the season (strangely enough!)

And at least i hadn't started the Ryder Cup comp, which was planned for a second season in the new year.

Any way around this would be appreciated by many i think. Not just those who play FG seriously, and actually have impressive records, but for those who like to keep an interest, despite falling down the league (like me!)

[murf]

those .... falling down the league (like me!)

Do we get to keep these dreadful positions under our names for ever?

[Ave a banana]

Could you get round it by using postcodes?

Saturday kicks off with......

1245 SR5 v BL6

and ends with.....

1730 L4 v SW6

Chelsea and Fulham both share SW6, and Liverpool and Everton share L4. You could use full postcode or maybe SW6B (BLUE), SW6W (WHITE), L4R (RED) and L4B (BLUE)

Would'nt take long to learn them, and this LINK gives all the postcodes, except Blackpool (FY1)

[Deppy]

Another option - could we just number the teams and use the numbers - eg wigan = 17 - soon get used to it?

Surely this idea would work, have the team names and numbers on a seperate page and keep fiso goals with just the numbers and boxes for scores.

[Deppy]

those .... falling down the league (like me!)

Do we get to keep these dreadful positions under our names for ever?

Yes please.

[Vid]

Chris could always check the email source and block that IP from registering/ accessing FISO? What they can't see they can't whine about?

[DrBunker]

Whilst I understand the need to pull the current version there are so many options on this thread that surely one of them would work? Captains, post codes, nicknames, non-date order, initials etc. I guess it's just making sure that whatever we do complies with their ridiculous policies.

[Surprised]

Whilst I understand the need to pull the current version there are so many options on this thread that surely one of them would work? Captains, post codes, nicknames, non-date order, initials etc. I guess it's just making sure that whatever we do complies with their ridiculous policies.

The downside is that they are willing to go to court for any possible infringement, no matter how trivial.

[Vid]

Whilst I understand the need to pull the current version there are so many options on this thread that surely one of them would work? Captains, post codes, nicknames, non-date order, initials etc. I guess it's just making sure that whatever we do complies with their ridiculous policies.

The downside is that they are willing to go to court for any possible infringement, no matter how trivial.

Assuming virtually everyone has a FPL team can't we just do Match 1, Match 2, etc. here and use the order off the FPL site?

edit: although I do think one of the many FF providers that we apparently have good relationships with could do us a favour by covering us with their licence, peanuts to them.

[flyingkillercob]

Well what a bunch of killjoys

I have another idea to add to the mix: FISO Weekly Goals Quiz - each week (or midweek where applicable) you are presented with the same page. This page has 20 lines, each says "How many goals will [Team] will score this week?" The lines are always in alphabetical order from Arsenal to Wolves. This way, there is no possible way of deducing the fixtures from FISO as no indication is given as to which teams are playing each other. It will be up to each player to use an independent source to find this out.

If, as already stated in this thread, post-match fixture lists are allowed, then after matches have finished, the results page can still display the scores as it does now. Only the input page is affected.

So all we see is this every week:

How many goals will Arsenal score this week? [ ]
.
.
.
How many goals will Wolves score this week? [ ]

Absolutely no fixtures, venues or KO times can be deduced from this method.

[bonsey]

What in gods name is the world coming too?? Perhaps this organisation should be taken to court, get a petition get all users on Fiso and FFS etc to sign up but more importantly see if there can be added weight behind from media and other sporting companies.

No one is copying and displaying the original fixture list - all this and other website's are doing is typing a statement of fact - these game are getting played on a weekend. These winkers need a good battering as they are ruining fans enjoyment and in reality restricting access to knowlefge and discussion - for what purpose?

can a suggestion be made again to continue without any code -
simply promte the attched
http://iknowthescore.premierleague.com/landing.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then label each week up eg - GW18
F1 = empty boxes - empty box
F2
F3
F4
F5
ETC

No names dispayed - Fiso promoting FPL and players just putting scores in the empty boxes as it has been doing for years.
F1 refers to fixture 1 on the IKTS pages of FPL.

The parasite's can not touch anyone for this as there is nothing displayed!!

Keep it real lads and keep up the good work !

[WilBert]

How pathetic! In this season of good will to all men where that is far more importantant than money and materialism......

Could we piggyback on another prediction game and start a post:-

Who have you gone in http://www.predictthepremiership.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Until it's sorted out?

[RomynPG]

This came up in Jul in FPL in reference to Fantasy Football Scout having to remove their "ticker" - (a grid with the next ~6 games colour coded for difficulty) - which was based on FPL gameweeks with no dates indicated. FFS had to pay the licence if they wished to keep it - which they did.

I made a rambling post at the time that at least has a few usual links as background
viewtopic.php?p=1579538#p1579538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(sorry Chris I forgot to link this in the article
http://www.fiso.co.uk/articles/232/Lega ... tures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
)