RIP Premiership Predictions / FISO Goals

[el_pappje]

It would appear the hand of DataCo is also present when discovering that it is "illegal" to take a photo at a ground and then post it on the internet, without a licence

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/sho ... p?t=282298" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Amazing what you find when googling "DataCo w*nkers".

Also something about a European Court of Justice ruling regarding "sui generis" database protection, which unsurprisingly Datagit had an answer for:

http://www.predictionfootball.com/predf ... php?t=2170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(ps apols if either of those links posted already, have lost track)

[Shaggy365]

... or at the start of the season, you predict all 380 matches at once. Admittedly it would take some time to key them all in, but I don't see that this could infringe anything, since in a season every team plays every other team home & away.

[Mick MacPaddywack]

What a bummer!!
My traditional Friday evening ruined!!
Opened the bottle once the missuz & kids went to bed
Tried to post my predictions & checked out FISODAS to see if Barry was starting season 17
Hoping to get a quick prediction posted & avoid a spanking from Barry for a late return ...
Just the normal Friday, I hoped ...
Poxy News!!

Regardless of the outcome, may I say it has been a great pleasure trying to kick ass with friend & foe over the last couple of years
in whatever competition ... thanks very much to the organisers like the Sheep, the Pussy, Jester & more recently Barry & others unnamed.
Excellent work ... it really has been a pleasure.

I'll keep my eye peeled here in case something more positive comes out of this.
Mac

[hammerddh]

Jilljoys....best season ever as well.

[el_pappje]

As was posted earlier in the thread, there was a hearing on 25 Nov. Here's the link to what the Judges in the Court of Appeal have asked the European Court of Justice (right at bottom of relevant text):

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/p/football ... r-ecj.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My legal interpretation of this (I'm not a lawyer, but 2 family members are) is that Dataco seem on the back foot with the line the Appeal Court Judges have taken (and in the original case 2 of their 3 claimed rights were chucked out).

I think there are good grounds for stating that FISO Goals does not believe it is at fault and (as mentioned earlier) will therefore await the outcome of the Court ruling before complying with the request.

[el_pappje]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 389389.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So DataCo have effectively been on the back foot since 2004. I can't find anything that legally enshrines the rights they claim, therefore they don't have a leg to stand on until they get a ruling in their favour?

[Lone Ranger]

It stinks

[el_pappje]

Saw something on a law firm's site suggesting the Britten pools ruling was a victory for Dataco.

This article suggests the bookies agreed to make a VOLUNTARY contribution to Dataco to help smaller football clubs despite the ECJ ruling and the lack of UK govt plans to 'reopen the issue of database directive'

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/? ... 23b.1395.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[el_pappje]

OPINION: Everyone thought the question of what rights exist in football fixture lists was settled back in 2004 when the European Court of Justice concluded that the then new database right did not protect football fixture lists. It wasn't.

As many in the gambling industry will know, this decision did not stop Football Dataco Limited (and others) from sending out demands for payment for use of football fixture lists.

In response to these demands, companies took one of two views. Either they would pay on the basis that the sum demanded was relatively modest or they would refer Football Dataco to the European case brought by Fixtures Marketing Limited, the predecessor to Football Dataco, and say that they had no legal right to pursue any licence fees.

http://www.out-law.com/page-11467" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DrBunker]

A variation (and clarification) on a couple of suggestions above: can't we just use the relevant FPL fixtures page as a reference (e.g. http://fantasy.premierleague.com/M/fixture.mc?event=18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and then have two columns, home & away, and number the "matches" so they match the order of those on the FPL site. I can't see this causing Jester too much hassle or DataCo too many nightmares.

Could this be a goer? There's no infringement there surely?

[redcanuck]

Didn't realize there was a cut off on the Goals predictions. It's just after midnight here so 5am in England and I can't seem to make my predictions says the competition is closed.

[Vid]

Didn't realize there was a cut off on the Goals predictions. It's just after midnight here so 5am in England and I can't seem to make my predictions says the competition is closed.

You haven't read a single post on this thread have you?

[admin]

As was posted earlier in the thread, there was a hearing on 25 Nov. Here's the link to what the Judges in the Court of Appeal have asked the European Court of Justice (right at bottom of relevant text):

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/p/football ... r-ecj.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My legal interpretation of this (I'm not a lawyer, but 2 family members are) is that Dataco seem on the back foot with the line the Appeal Court Judges have taken (and in the original case 2 of their 3 claimed rights were chucked out).

My reading of the main aspects of the judgement is (and bear in mind it's quite early in the morning):

1. The FA/Dataco claim there is a) 'judgement and skill' in compiling the fixture lists (not just a mechanical process) and/or b) that just by compiling the data together there is copyright over that database.

2. The UK Court believe the European Directive don't give copyright over 1b - rather whether any copyright exists depends just on the works themselves included in the compilation/database.

3. Re 1a above - before the European Directive, UK law had required there to be 'artistic skill' before copyright could exist over the created works but the European Directive only refers to 'the author’s own intellectual creation'.

The Courts are now asking for clarification on 2 and 3 from the European Court of Justice i.e. what did the Directive actually mean in relation to these issues and their impact of football fixture lists.

I think the man in the street would find it a joke that the FA are claiming that by arranging the matches in a sensible order to be played during each season that as 'authors' (or rather a Mr Glenn Thompson at The FA is the 'author') they have created an 'intellectual work' that has copyright and no-one else can copy it without permission/payment. I mean we could all come up with a sensible fixture list couldn't we, based on likely Police and Sky/ESPN requirements as well as ensuring no more than 2 consecutive home or away matches! Also there's always going to be a fixture list for the season so to say they've 'created' one is in a way laughable - all they've done is put it in a reasonable order (by Mr Thompson putting in some hard work over a short period) and then try and profit from it by hanging their hat on a dubious legal argument and aggresively pursuing any 'transgressors'.

As also mentioned in the judgement, if the FA/Dataco win the case then copyright will probably exist over other non-artistical compilations such as TV listings.

[kingmackay]

Got in late last night and couldn't do my predictions thought there was an issue with the website or something, then i stumbled across this thread.

GUTTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Cathryn Tate's nan would say what a FxxKING LIBERTY!!!!

[Rick]

Yours faithfully

David Folker

for and on behalf of Football DataCo Limited'

He is a bit of a Folker isn't he.

Sad day.

Mind you there are plenty of options with the FPL run 'I know the score' and the talksport competition doing pretty much the same thing. I would suggest a Fiso league in the talksport prediction competition http://predictor.talksport.co.uk/default.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to replace this next season.

[Spencer4]

There are over 100 people in the Fiso I know the Score Leagues right now.

[blahblah]

Didn't realize there was a cut off on the Goals predictions. It's just after midnight here so 5am in England and I can't seem to make my predictions says the competition is closed.

You haven't read a single post on this thread have you?

Or is it post modern irony?

[RomynPG]

A variation (and clarification) on a couple of suggestions above: can't we just use the relevant FPL fixtures page as a reference (e.g. http://fantasy.premierleague.com/M/fixture.mc?event=18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and then have two columns, home & away, and number the "matches" so they match the order of those on the FPL site. I can't see this causing Jester too much hassle or DataCo too many nightmares.

Could this be a goer? There's no infringement there surely?

One of the thoughts I had when this all came up in respect to the various FPL (GW based) Fixture Grids was to do something with GreaseMonkey. (It was really only due to lack of time and little knowledge of GM that I didn't take it anywhere).

The thought goes like this...

GreaseMonkey is an add on to Firefox (so any solution would be limited to FF & Chrome I think) that allows you to run additional external javascript files against websites. (There is one for the FPL game that provides extra stats on the Transfers page for example). For Fixtures GM could run an extra script that reads through the Fixtures on FPL site and then constructs a Grid based on that data and colour codes each Fixture on-the-fly based on rules within the extra script. This Grid is then displayed within FPL's site - so there's no copying and storing of the fixtures as that is done every time the page refreshes. Then when on the FPL Fixtures page you would see the fixtures as normal but have the option to view in Grid form.

The principle could also be used I would have thought to embed the Predictions game within a GM script, (which I assume could also have some session with FISO and Ajax Prediction data back to the FISO servers), within a site that has the fixtures (FPL or BBC for example) and bingo. Again no copyright as everything run against/on their site.

(It would be a fair bit of work but I considered it/will consider it again maybe for the FPL Fixture stuff)

[Rick]

There are over 100 people in the Fiso I know the Score Leagues right now.

True, but the IKTS competition is more different to Fiso goals than the Talksport comp. Also those leagues are limited to 50, I don't think Talksport has a limit on it's mini leagues.

[eagle224]

Why spend all that time working on a fix that only suits Chrome and Firefox users?

Surely the effort would be better spent on helping FISO Goals re-design the Predictions page - could still be a grid. Surely this is the only bit that needs changing as the results are not under any copyright so those pages do not need to change. By allowing a grid Home (top) v Away (side) layout to be filled in, it is then up to the player to find the relevant predictions based on fixtures legally published elsewhere - any attempt on FISO's part to restrict the list to just the current games for the week (even by displaying someone else's list) will breach the copyright rules. The grid boxes can be locked from edit when the game has already been played (plus the obvious home/away team identical). The whole grid is locked at the deadline and re-opened after the last game for the day (locking individual grid entries will require storing the latest fixtures - another breach).

This can't be breaching copyright as a grid has no implied fixture order or date - that has to be obtained by the player from elsewhere. The grid is also easily constructed from general knowledge of teams in the league and the fact each plays one home and one away game against each other over the course of the season, so again can not fall under database copyright.

[MarquisMark]

This can't be breaching copyright as a grid has no implied fixture order or date - that has to be obtained by the player from elsewhere. The grid is also easily constructed from general knowledge of teams in the league and the fact each plays one home and one away game against each other over the course of the season, so again can not fall under database copyright.

+1

[bspittles]

Well what a bunch of killjoys

I have another idea to add to the mix: FISO Weekly Goals Quiz - each week (or midweek where applicable) you are presented with the same page. This page has 20 lines, each says "How many goals will [Team] will score this week?" The lines are always in alphabetical order from Arsenal to Wolves. This way, there is no possible way of deducing the fixtures from FISO as no indication is given as to which teams are playing each other. It will be up to each player to use an independent source to find this out.

If, as already stated in this thread, post-match fixture lists are allowed, then after matches have finished, the results page can still display the scores as it does now. Only the input page is affected.

So all we see is this every week:

How many goals will Arsenal score this week? [ ]
.
.
.
How many goals will Wolves score this week? [ ]

Absolutely no fixtures, venues or KO times can be deduced from this method.

This seems to be the best idea yet.

[murf]

That would cahneg the marking system (or make the question very odd for newbies).

The only one I like is the grid of 380 fixtures with no dates that is marked as they happen.

Main drawback is somebody could enter in August, die the next day (or just ignore FISO) and win coem May.

[ferg]

Repeating a couple of suggestions but why does there have to be any data at all on the FISO side?

Could just reduce the game to 20 empty boxes with a link to whatever legal fixture list exists and just work on the assumption we play in the same order.

Obviously not user friendly but we could finish the game in progress.

[redcanuck]

Didn't realize there was a cut off on the Goals predictions. It's just after midnight here so 5am in England and I can't seem to make my predictions says the competition is closed.

You haven't read a single post on this thread have you?

No I didn't. Feel kinda stupid, my only excuse is that I should not be making posts late at night after working a double shift.

[MarquisMark]

Didn't realize there was a cut off on the Goals predictions. It's just after midnight here so 5am in England and I can't seem to make my predictions says the competition is closed.

You haven't read a single post on this thread have you?

No I didn't. Feel kinda stupid, my only excuse is that I should not be making posts late at night after working a double shift.

d'oh

musta had a confused look on your face

[Spencer4]

Repeating a couple of suggestions but why does there have to be any data at all on the FISO side?

Could just reduce the game to 20 empty boxes with a link to whatever legal fixture list exists and just work on the assumption we play in the same order.

Obviously not user friendly but we could finish the game in progress.

Genius, just omit all the text, leave boxes. Suck on that DataCock

[Jester]

Leaving empty boxes or calling them 'Game 1, Game 2....etc' whilst good ideas to get around the 'rules', would require work by the developers before being adopted.

The way the game has been set up, requires that a Premiership club needs to be entered in both the home and away fields. Also, each field needs to be a different club.

You cannot therefore have Arsenal v Arsenal for the game played at Arsenal.

The only thing I can see that might work right away, without modification to the game, is for me to enter the fixtures backwards, ie home team away and away team at home.

That way we would know which game is which but it would bear little resemblance to the actual fixture list.

I would need the nod from Admin before going ahead with this of course.

[MarquisMark]

which is why having a number, alias or some sort of representation in place of the normal team name would work and as inferred by J, will cause minimal change in the code. Just literally swapping the names for something else will be an absolute minimal editing procedure with no need to get fingers dirty with any coding

Can't see DataCo being too upset about that set up. They are all about chasing people who intend to profit on the fixture lists, or who blatantly infringe copyright by displaying the fixture list without giving them £££s

Whereas this is a sidegame which if continued would not even resemble the fixture list....could even just be numbers from 1 to 20

would some contact with DataCo be prudent too? Telling what the game is and that it is all about PREDICTIONS and not FIXTURE LISTS - ask them what is needed to change the game to a satisfactory level that they would deem not infringing. i'm sure they would like to be painted in a helpful light rather than one of money grabbing b*stards who just wanna walk off the pitch with their ball and noone else is playing. or is that a little naive

[eagle224]

which is why having a number, alias or some sort of representation in place of the normal team name would work

I'm no lawyer, but I would have thought any representation of the fixtures would easily be argued to be a replication of the fixtures themselves as that is the basis for the representation in the first place. Perhaps someone of a more legal standing on here could answer that one.

Asking DataCo what would be acceptable seems a good idea though. It would be a shame to see this game die off.