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Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

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Yorkshire Exile
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Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by Yorkshire Exile » 14 Apr 2019, 12:56

where did all yesterdays posts go???

:roll:

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Maldini
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Top 100

Post by Maldini » 14 Apr 2019, 13:32

It’s like the Freemasons in the SDT forum.

Why they continue with the charade that they’re not all cheating is beyond me.

ffstuff
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Re: Top 100

Post by ffstuff » 14 Apr 2019, 13:35

I was wondering that, i didn't see anything that was out of order and needed removing....perhaps things got more heated later on after I last checked

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Yorkshire Exile
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Re: Top 100

Post by Yorkshire Exile » 14 Apr 2019, 13:39

not unless it was the very small hours of the night....

i know toffeman copped another ban for stating his opinion...

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Re: Top 100

Post by RickyRosa » 15 Apr 2019, 00:13

I too feel that we have to be careful of censorship.

It just adds fuel to the fire that a lot of members are cheats.

Obviously depends upon ones interpretation of cheating of course.

Think the issue was that certain managers were being called out without indisputable evidence.

Though in reality there seemed to be a lot of circumstantial evidence.

It kills the thread and hurts the forum imop when these posts are removed.

Freedom of speech is essential and if one person commits slander against another it could be redressed through the courts.

I certainly with out exaggeration would seek redress against anyone who slandered my good name (mean that to).

Not that it will ever happen as I have never and will never cheat.

summer is over
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Re: Top 100

Post by summer is over » 15 Apr 2019, 10:11

I was banned for the last 2 days for daring to ask the question about people controlling their wives accounts, I am assuming I was banned by Zimmerman who has always been very pally with the regulars, maybe vid needs to step in because it feels like free speech is being surpressed, at least with cetain posters - yet threads on the Byroms and posts on the Quiqley's and the Whittles by others are allowed to stand for an absolute age, but like I said 2 days ago, it seems fisoers are a protected species, not allowed to queston the Thomas's, the Lawlors, Grasby's, Davis's, Weavers, etc, oh no, there are no accusations, just questions. :roll:

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Re: Top 100

Post by Yorkshire Exile » 15 Apr 2019, 10:41

RickyRosa wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 00:13
I too feel that we have to be careful of censorship.

It just adds fuel to the fire that a lot of members are cheats.

Obviously depends upon ones interpretation of cheating of course.

Think the issue was that certain managers were being called out without indisputable evidence.

Though in reality there seemed to be a lot of circumstantial evidence.

It kills the thread and hurts the forum imop when these posts are removed.

Freedom of speech is essential and if one person commits slander against another it could be redressed through the courts.

I certainly with out exaggeration would seek redress against anyone who slandered my good name (mean that to).

Not that it will ever happen as I have never and will never cheat.

you talk some utter bollocks on here ricky (in my opinion and which is your right to do) - but i agree with this 100%

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Re: Top 100

Post by Dot » 15 Apr 2019, 11:10

summer is over wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 10:11
I was banned for the last 2 days for daring to ask the question about people controlling their wives accounts, I am assuming I was banned by Zimmerman who has always been very pally with the regulars, maybe vid needs to step in because it feels like free speech is being surpressed, at least with cetain posters - yet threads on the Byroms and posts on the Quiqley's and the Whittles by others are allowed to stand for an absolute age, but like I said 2 days ago, it seems fisoers are a protected species, not allowed to queston the Thomas's, the Lawlors, Grasby's, Davis's, Weavers, etc, oh no, there are no accusations, just questions. :roll:
The problem is that my circumstantial is 100 pct stronger than your Walter Mitty suggestions adding to the fact you persistently snipe and troll too many posters.

You sound like a whinging Mcmahon

summer is over
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Re: Top 100

Post by summer is over » 15 Apr 2019, 11:20

Coming from you, the chief whinger :lol: how many essays have you posted on here over the years disecting players at length who are potentially colluding talking about this transfer they've made or that transfer etc, tell me why the Byroms and Kovacs have had it so hard in the neck but when Lawlor Junior is flying high 1 year after your win (belated congratualations) nobody is allowed to suspect anything, think about it, the chances of that, two family members in a competition of over 1 million entrants being so good, remarkable.

The point I'm actually making is about the hypocrisy, because rules allow for more than 1 player per household so proving collusion is nigh on impossible anyway until those rules change, but the whole 'not me guv' when it's a fisoers is just amusing, what's more amusing is nobody on this forum is more suspicious than you, you didn't call yourself Sleuth for nothing, yet here you are the chief whinger, whinging to me about me whinging :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Top 100

Post by Dot » 15 Apr 2019, 11:32

As I said, you sound just like a whinging McMahon.


P.S. Chuck a paragraph in now and then I'm having to stick my glasses on. :wink:

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kennyboy28
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Wags, cheats and the grey area in between

Post by kennyboy28 » 15 Apr 2019, 12:37

I think it's time to simmer down and concentrate on the actual football here. If Mark's son is doing well, good for him, same goes for Lee's wife. Just because they are from the same family as a previous winner or someone who always does well at fantasy football doesn't automatically mean there needs to be something untoward going on.

Mark has highlighted many obvious entrants before who were blatantly flouting the rules, by the amount of entries they had under different identities. This doesn't apply to Mark's son or Lee's wife.

Let's be honest here, if someone in the family was doing well at fantasy football or had done well In the past, it's only natural a family member would think, you know what I'm going to give it a go and see how I get on, if you can do it so can I. My son is desperate to have a go, only downside being he's only 12, but he enjoys telling me if I've did well every week and who he thinks I should be putting in my team. Likewise I'm sure Lee's wife sometimes asks, maybe not listens going by the Lukaku transfer, what he thinks of who to put in, or asks for advice on upcoming fixtures. I don't see a problem with that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion however accusing someone of being a cheat without the evidence is serious stuff so I would never accuse anyone of such a thing.

If Mark's son or Lee's wife win overall I'll be the first to congratulate them...... but it's not going to happen. :wink:

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Re: Top 100

Post by gutshot » 15 Apr 2019, 14:02

superiorpinkham wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 12:47
Surprised not to see Byrom or Giant Haystacks in the top 100... especially with all the teams they enter between them.
Hate to be the one to break it to yer but Martin ruane snuffed it some 20 years ago😉

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Re: Top 100

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Apr 2019, 14:28

summer is over wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 10:11
I was banned for the last 2 days for daring to ask the question about people controlling their wives accounts, I am assuming I was banned by Zimmerman who has always been very pally with the regulars, maybe vid needs to step in because it feels like free speech is being surpressed, at least with cetain posters - yet threads on the Byroms and posts on the Quiqley's and the Whittles by others are allowed to stand for an absolute age, but like I said 2 days ago, it seems fisoers are a protected species, not allowed to queston the Thomas's, the Lawlors, Grasby's, Davis's, Weavers, etc, oh no, there are no accusations, just questions. :roll:
Not me guv.
I’m all for free speech (within limits).

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Re: Top 100

Post by thekaratekid » 15 Apr 2019, 15:09

Its utterly ridiculous to think that the WAGS of well known and successful fantasy players are just entering their own teams to compete and then beat their other halfs who have been doing this for years.

Its no coincidence that that in the games when there are no entry limits the "WIFES" never show up on the leaderboard. Yet in a game like this there are numerous 'WIFES" all doing really well and they all happen to also have well known husbands playing the game.

And its also amazing how many of them all enter their full quota of ten teams. Managing ten teams properly is not far off a full time job.

To get anywhere near the top 10-100 in a game like this you would have to plan ahead and more importantly check the team news for the majority of the games for the big teams ALL season long. AND then be able to potentially make changes to ten of your teams within an hour window. This would be true for the first couple of months of the season at least.

For Lee to suggest that he just occasionally gives his missus a rough idea of who might be decent that week and then she goes away and does her own thing (for her ten teams) is just a joke.

If that was the case its beyond a stretch that over a period of 8 months she would be anywhere near the top of the leaderboard.

That on its own is highly unlikely but then the likelehood of so many other "WIFES" getting SO lucky over an 8 month period makes it statistically beyond comprehension.

Again nothing against Lee and i dont have any teams in contention but this really does need to be called out/highlighted waaaay in advance so cheats dont prosper and those that do win fair and square are not disadvantaged. And that could be the person losing first place for 100 grand or the person who finishes maybe 11th when really they shouldve been 9th for 2 grand.

The rules are very clear this year you cant run a team in your Wifes name.

Last year people couldve argued that technically wasnt against the rules but this year THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE CHEATING.

I for one dont want them to get away with it.

Just think it might be you next year who gets cheated by someone doing this. Lets put a stop to it now.

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Re: Top 100

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Apr 2019, 15:27

Should everyone posting a team on the Rate My Team thread been accused of cheating?

Am I cheating giving them advice or are they cheating asking other people what transfers to make?

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Re: Top 100

Post by RickyRosa » 15 Apr 2019, 16:03

That’s my point.

What is the definition if cheating.

If it could be proved they were controlling their WAGs teams then absolutely ban them for life I say (harsh but true).

Reality is though it cannot be proved and so it has to just be accepted that some players will enter multiple teams in their wives and children’s names.

Sharing advice on forums/the phone/in real life is not cheating imop.

Multi accounting is.

That’s the line.

Inforcing it is almost impossible.

The only thing you can do is join them if it really worries you and you feel you are at a major statistical disadvantage.

I remember in the Euro game you had to pay to enter like 2 quid a team or something and Kovaks entered the max 500 (prob more in different peoples names) and I entered like 25 and it was mental managing 25 teams!

I also came 3rd for 7.5k and Kovaks either didnt place or finished way down if I recall.

I remember thinking he would have struggled to get an ROI let along turn a nice profit.

Add in the very real fact that you could get DQd is it worth it?

Mathematically of course but in reality?

I don’t know.

That’s why I pushed once for a syndicate...would have been within the rules and really increased everyone’s chances of cashing..

Take Kenny and Blade...if Pool keep keeping CS Blade isn’t winning shit.

If they had shared percentages...still that’s another story I appreciate..back in topic...for me it’s all about integrity.

Then again people have differing moral standards and views of what is right and what is wrong.

It’s very hard to avoid the temptation of doing it but when I win I win fair and square...for others though it’s all about the dollar..100 bags is a lot of money.

Maybe I should pursuade Mrs R to enter next year...imagine she won in her debut season!!

How suspicious would that look!!

Still...proving she hasn’t would be hard...especially if one were to threaten leagal action against the sun...would they just roll over?

summer is over
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Re: Top 100

Post by summer is over » 15 Apr 2019, 16:07

Apologies to Zimmerman for wrongful accusations, now would a troll apologies Dot? :D

I am not on some rampage wanting everyone with a wag to be dragged over the coals and guillotined in public because as said before it's almost unprovable with wags, but there has definitely been a lot of double standards posted on here, I've seen many complain about wags but then their own wags appear followed by "we don't talk about DT, I just let her borrow my fixture grid now and then" or "I casually mentioned Moura, good Sir, I did not press the button" :D

The only way you can stop collusion/cheating, call it what you will, is to completely do away with 10 teams, because as the Karate Kid said, you never saw these wags surface when it was unlimited, all of a sudden well know, and well thought of/highly regarded players started appearing alongside their wags, that's some coincidence. They should go back to unlimited teams, maybe to stave off the kovacs effect they could make the first 10 teams 2 pounds, the next 10 3 pounds each and so on and so on.

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Re: Top 100

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Apr 2019, 16:39

I say provide evidence of the double standards you allude to, or let that go.

There some posters who’s only contribution seems to be these discussions.

There are other posters who’s only contribution is to suggest there is a club or old boys network.

There are others who just moan that no one helps and they don’t join in any of the side games and diss the members (so you question why they come here still).

EDIT - I’m going to lock this thread whilst I split all this whinging off to its own thread. It’s not censoring and it’s not a cover up. It will all be open again shortly.

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Re: Top 100

Post by thekaratekid » 15 Apr 2019, 16:57

Zimmerman wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 15:27
Should everyone posting a team on the Rate My Team thread been accused of cheating?

Am I cheating giving them advice or are they cheating asking other people what transfers to make?
No youre not.

But if you entered ten teams for them and then basically just ran them yourself you would be.

Its not a grey area. There doesnt need to be any discussion on that. Its cheating.

And ITS CLEARLY AGAINST THE RULES.

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Apr 2019, 17:01

But if I tell them exactly what changes to make and they do them... is that cheating?

If I’m related to them, does that make it cheating?

If it’s someone that lives in the same house... is that the threshold that makes it cheating?

Or is it only cheating if I log in and make the changes for them?

What if we’re not related, say Dot is going on holiday and he says - here are my details, in case I have issues logging in whilst I’m in Tenerife and can’t get the gimp suit off because of the heat...
Is that cheating?

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by Nightowl » 15 Apr 2019, 17:08

But lee has already told you this is not happening in his household, so surely that's the end of it until you can prove it, no person should have to come on here to defend themselves without strong evidence against them, what happened to innocent until proven guilty this seems more like guilty now prove your innocent :lol:

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by Vid » 15 Apr 2019, 17:17

Yorkshire Exile wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 12:56
where did all yesterdays posts go???

:roll:
A pity that no-one cared to notify me of any potential issues in this forum, I will be looking into the matter as and when I can over the next few days.

There is a process in place, if you don't like what the mods are doing then don't post about it, get my attention directly!

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by thekaratekid » 15 Apr 2019, 17:19

Zimmerman wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 17:01
But if I tell them exactly what changes to make and they do them... is that cheating?

If I’m related to them, does that make it cheating?

If it’s someone that lives in the same house... is that the threshold that makes it cheating?

Or is it only cheating if I log in and make the changes for them?

What if we’re not related, say Dot is going on holiday and he says - here are my details, in case I have issues logging in whilst I’m in Tenerife and can’t get the gimp suit off because of the heat...
Is that cheating?
1. Yes cheating. As youre running the team. (Although highly unlikely shes was making changes to all ten teams in real time at the start of the season anyway).

2. No. Not cheating. Obviously just being related to someone doesnt make you a cheat.

3. No not cheating. Obviously living in the same house as someone doesnt make you a cheat.

4. Yes. Is obviously cheating if youre doing all/close to all of the changes. Again you are managing the teams there.

5. No. Not cheating. Thats clearly not systematic managing/controlling a team.

Its not complicated.

Although obviuosly youre comeback will then be how do you prove it 100%?

In a court of law something has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. To me reasonably that would be anything over 99% likely.

In this case id be comfortable saying that it at least 99% that Lorraines and the numerous other wags teams that appeared on the leaderboard arent being fully managed by them.

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Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by jpk » 15 Apr 2019, 17:34

and so the great debate about what constitutes cheating ended

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by RickyRosa » 15 Apr 2019, 18:41

And so it has.

So maybe the only question left now is what to do about it?

For me if you suspect cheating and feel passionate about it then report it.

Do something about it.

If enough people reported an individual like they did with other known cheats then the sun will be forced to do something about it.

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Re: Top 100

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Apr 2019, 19:04

gutshot wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 14:02
superiorpinkham wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 12:47
Surprised not to see Byrom or Giant Haystacks in the top 100... especially with all the teams they enter between them.
Hate to be the one to break it to yer but Martin ruane snuffed it some 20 years ago😉
My dad dad once gave Giant Haystacks a lift and he broke his seat (Ford Cortina). True story.

My old fella said he had the biggest gut he'd ever seen... soon changed his mind after he met Dot

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Re: Top 100

Post by murf » 15 Apr 2019, 19:34

thekaratekid wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 15:09
Its utterly ridiculous to think that the WAGS of well known and successful fantasy players are just entering their own teams to compete and then beat their other halfs who have been doing this for years.

Its no coincidence that that in the games when there are no entry limits the "WIFES" never show up on the leaderboard. Yet in a game like this there are numerous 'WIFES" all doing really well and they all happen to also have well known husbands playing the game.
Not true I'm afraid. The Bear (a succesful FFer and FISOer) and his son are both on the TFF leaderboards this year - No reason to think it isn't genuine. You do the odd 'wife' on TFF leaderboards when they are the partner of someone going for weeklies/monthlies and there is a rule about multiple prizes but it doesn't apply to season long teams.


PS The plural of wife is wives

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by superiorpinkham » 15 Apr 2019, 20:05

I don't think the Byroms are cheats; I think they are/were just going through an identity crisis.

They do make a good tag team though! Giant Haystacks :lol:

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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by Yorkshire Exile » 15 Apr 2019, 22:36

Vid wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 17:17
Yorkshire Exile wrote:
14 Apr 2019, 12:56
where did all yesterdays posts go???

:roll:
A pity that no-one cared to notify me of any potential issues in this forum, I will be looking into the matter as and when I can over the next few days.

There is a process in place, if you don't like what the mods are doing then don't post about it, get my attention directly!
Thought the mods would know which mod deleted... Also wouldn't want to question a mod and get a ban :roll: Also wasn't aware there was any issues until stuff got deleted etc

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12345678
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Re: Cheats, WaGs and the grey area in between

Post by 12345678 » 16 Apr 2019, 06:48

an old old controversial topic.

as someone who tried to bring those running the game to book and had many conversations with them over this i can provide some historical fills on the issue.

there are 3 views 1) it is cheating 2) they allow it so it is not cheating 3) it's my interpretation of the rules, not theirs.

from many conversations i would say the issue is with the newspapers historically, they seem to have made the decisions, not those running the game.

many is the time i have asked them to disqualify ALL related teams and to clarify what happens in the rules and they have ALWAYS refused.

the old cyki game did have a zero tolerance policy but other than them no one else ever has and payouts have been regular.

when i have spoken with providers it has been clear that papers have called the shots and that their main issue has been seeing leaderboards dominated by one surname, particularly early season.

i did ask gfm directly once re a euro game 'if my partner enters a team in her name and i help her with all the transfers is that allowed?' i was told 'yes'. so there you have it albeit historically from today's dominant provider.

the issue came to a head a few years back when the mail got backed into a corner by an obvious very large front running serial multi entrant (who is still doing it today). it seems they started banning teams then stopped as the complaints came in, banning only a small number of the extremely large multi. to me that was like 'custer's last stand' :lol: with the providers and clearly established that whatever the rules stated the position was you could enter as many teams as you liked per ID.

at the end of the day we are not the ref's and if they indulge in 'effing reffing' and allow klinsmann like diving to go unpunished then sadly it becomes part of the game.

so basically my own personal view even though i do not like it and would rather it isn't the case is that in limited entry comps you are allowed entries per ID and who is controlling those teams is completely and utterly irrelevant.

it's been a running sore and in my view isn't an issue with the 'cheats' nor an issue with the 'holier than thou' brigade but is an issue solely by those entities responsible for running the games. fighting amongst ourselves as an FF community is not productive, in fact the opposite, all it does is create bad feeling as the posts here illustrate. if anyone feels really strongly about this taking a pop at the issue or individuals ain't in my view the way forward but complaining fully to the papers and those running (ruining?) the games is.

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