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Free Speech

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Dennisthemenace
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 20 Jan 2015, 13:44

Surprised wrote:
Does confidentiality at work not matter to you? ?
Versus the potential terrorist threat - NO. For example, if somebody from the Police/Government came to my workplace and said there is an imminent extreme terrorist attack, can we have a look at your records? I doubt anybody is going to say NO
Surprised wrote: Would your clients/customers/employees be happy knowing you care nothing for their confidentiality?
As above. If they aren't one of those people that the Police were looking for then they have nothing to worry about and I doubt whether they'll be shaking with fear about their civil liberties being affected.

Of course, confidentiality is important but not versus extremes, which is my whole point and my point really isn't too difficult to grasp .

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Surprised » 20 Jan 2015, 13:48

They wouldn't come along and ask. Conversations would be recorded regardless and more than likely the info passed on to any interested party

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Dennisthemenace
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 20 Jan 2015, 14:05

DrBunker wrote:That's about the sum of it isn't it?
YES. Versus the extreme of an extreme terrorist attack. Go back to the 2nd World War when people were conscripted, now their freedoms were affected weren't they? Why was that? Yes, because some nutter wanted to kill them and change the country we live in.
DrBunker wrote:So your plan is that we give away ALL of our freedoms now and then when the government have solved the problem (which we won't be able to judge ourselves by the nature of what we're asking them to do) and we're totally safe again we'll ask them nicely to give us our freedoms back?
YES (but errr....not 'now'. That's misrepresenting me. It's only ALL when the Government say the extreme event is IMMINENT). Just like what happened in the War where normality was eventually restored. If an extreme terrorist event is likely to happen on these Isles then that is exactly what should happen. Or are you happy to wait until after that plane flies into Sellafield?

If the government announces that an extreme event on that scale is imminent then that is exactly what we should be doing and we shouldn't be worried about them checking what emails we are sending or what books we are reading on the tube :D

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Dennisthemenace
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 20 Jan 2015, 14:07

Surprised wrote:They wouldn't come along and ask. Conversations would be recorded regardless and more than likely the info passed on to any interested party
Good. Some people might actually refuse :shock:

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DrBunker
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Re: Free Speech

Post by DrBunker » 20 Jan 2015, 14:46

Dennisthemenace wrote:
DrBunker wrote:So your plan is that we give away ALL of our freedoms now
YES (but errr....not 'now'. That's misrepresenting me.
It's not misrepresentation if you use the full quote:
Dennisthemenace wrote:
DrBunker wrote:Anyway, despite your refusal to summarise your opinion I'd say it's this: you effectively would willingly give away ALL of your freedoms in exchange for what you hope would be a small increase in stopping a threat which has been clearly demonstrated to have been exaggerated by the media and by the very people who you want to give greater powers to. That's about the sum of it isn't it?
YES. Versus the extreme of an extreme terrorist attack.
You response will be, I'm sure, that you'd only give them away ahead of an extreme terrorist attack but my response to that would be how would you know when that would be? You're relying on the ppl you want to give increased powers to (who have been shown to deliberately exaggerate the threat) to tell you when you need to give up ALL of your liberties. Can you not see the paradox in that situation?

You seek to highlight the extremes but as has been said many times it's a spectrum. None of us have any real idea how bad things are currently but the difference between the two sides is how willingly they trust the very ppl they're giving their freedoms away to.

As an aside when the media had us scared about Ebola or bird flu or swine flu why were ppl not calling for massive investment in hospitals and border security? What is different about this particular potential threat?

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Re: Free Speech

Post by fancy dan » 20 Jan 2015, 15:00

Dennisthemenace wrote:
YES (but errr....not 'now'. That's misrepresenting me. It's only ALL when the Government say the extreme event is IMMINENT). Just like what happened in the War where normality was eventually restored. If an extreme terrorist event is likely to happen on these Isles then that is exactly what should happen. Or are you happy to wait until after that plane flies into Sellafield?

If the government announces that an extreme event on that scale is imminent then that is exactly what we should be doing and we shouldn't be worried about them checking what emails we are sending or what books we are reading on the tube :D
Surely if the government know that an extreme event is imminent, then intelligence has already done its job? What extra do you think will be gained at this point by giving them access to everyone's emails, phone records etc? :?

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Re: Free Speech

Post by DrBunker » 23 Jan 2015, 17:18

Any thoughts on my post above, Dennis?

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 23 Jan 2015, 20:18

DrBunker wrote:Any thoughts on my post above, Dennis?
I will only be saying the same old thing now, so best to walk away and leave it. Each to their own and all that. 8-)

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Re: Free Speech

Post by DrBunker » 24 Jan 2015, 09:44

Did you even read my post? :?

I can't see how it would have only led to repeated points from you. What it says to me is that I've asked you a specific question about one of your points and you don't have an answer.

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Dennisthemenace
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 24 Jan 2015, 11:56

DrBunker wrote:Did you even read my post? :?.
No :lol:
DrBunker wrote:What it says to me is that I've asked you a specific question about one of your points and you don't have an answer.
I don't care :D

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Re: Free Speech

Post by DrBunker » 24 Jan 2015, 13:58

Wow. So you spent pages and pages discussing a subject about which you won't read articles or listen to videos highlighting alternative viewpoints and you won't answer direct questions when you know they show up the shallowness of your views? At least it's obvious for everyone else to see for the next time you try to give an opinion on a serious, grown up discussion.

The worst thing is that I'm almost jealous of ppl like you who happily live in their own little worlds where everything is so simple, straightforward and unchallenging.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Maldini » 24 Jan 2015, 14:03

Dennisthemenace wrote:
DrBunker wrote:Did you even read my post? :?.
No :lol:
DrBunker wrote:What it says to me is that I've asked you a specific question about one of your points and you don't have an answer.
I don't care :D

:lol:

That's brilliant.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by fancy dan » 24 Jan 2015, 16:54

Maldini wrote:
Dennisthemenace wrote:
DrBunker wrote:Did you even read my post? :?.
No :lol:
DrBunker wrote:What it says to me is that I've asked you a specific question about one of your points and you don't have an answer.
I don't care :D

:lol:

That's brilliant.
Really? Sounds like a lost argument to me.

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Dennisthemenace
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Dennisthemenace » 25 Jan 2015, 00:57

DrBunker wrote:Wow. So you spent pages and pages discussing a subject about which you won't read articles or listen to videos highlighting alternative viewpoints.
Quite frankly no. I couldn't give a flying fig about anyone else's opinion. :D
DrBunker wrote:The worst thing is that I'm almost jealous of ppl like you who happily live in their own little worlds where everything is so simple, straightforward and unchallenging.
It's quite easy if you have strength in what you believe. Circumstances in your life will form the way you think. The things you see, the things you enjoy, the things that prick your conscience (or don't). Everything is entirely personal to us all.

Stepping outside your door can be both terrifying and enjoyable, but ultimately addictive and really, well, it's the only way to discover what you believe, for yourself, as a human being. And who can knock that?

It doesn't mean you're bad person. It just means the world has turned you, into you. 8-)

Chill, everything is good in our world .....(apart from the extremist nutters, they're just psycho b*stards)

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Carlos Kickaball » 25 Jan 2015, 09:57

I would have thought much of the value of discussion like this is to be able to examine your own views and see if they are reasonable and stand up to criticism, as well as learn about other people's opinions. If you fail to do this you are essentially admitting that your opinion is not based on facts and logic and is merely a collection of prejudices and unexamined ideas you've accumulated over your life.

It seems unreasonable to post your opinion and expect people to read it, at the same time as ignoring responses of a similar nature if they disagree with you, in fact I'd say it's pretty close to bigotry.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by nffc » 25 Jan 2015, 17:07

Why do you all think any security agency has the time, money or even just the desire to listen into the phone records of me, you and the other 60m people that are in this country?

My answer is they don't. Personally I could not care less if somebody wanted to hear me talking about the weather with my granddad or intercept my email that is asking for an update on the delivery of the pair of trainers that I have ordered.
But no security agency would be interested at all in my dull conversations. If I started ordering lots of fertiliser pretty soon after coming back from flying lessons in Algeria financed by Anjen Choudray then they may be yes, but me having a chat with the Mrs about our dog - No not all and I don't understand why any law abiding citizen believes they would have any interest in wasting any resources on you?
Last edited by nffc on 25 Jan 2015, 17:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by nffc » 25 Jan 2015, 17:09

nffc wrote: Personally I could not care less if somebody wanted to hear me talking about the weather with my granddad or intercept my email that is asking for an update on the delivery of the pair of trainers that I have ordered.
Actually I would due to the waste of taxpayers money this would be. But that's not the point I am trying to make here.... They would not be bothered about wasting their time on me at all

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Re: Free Speech

Post by RomynPG » 25 Jan 2015, 17:42

nffc wrote:If I started ordering lots of fertiliser pretty soon after coming back from flying lessons in Algeria financed by Anjen Choudray then they may be yes,
If that's what you were up to then I hope the Security Services would have picked up on it without even having to look at your phone records ... once in their sights then they can get access to your records to further build their case legally by getting a court order.
nffc wrote:but me having a chat with the Mrs about our dog - No not all and I don't understand why any law abiding citizen believes they would have any interest in wasting any resources on you?
And some don't understand why any law abiding citizen believes the Govt should be able to snoop on everything we do ... and that's really the heart of the privacy debate :|

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Zimmerman » 25 Jan 2015, 17:50

Would the pro surveillance people object to having CCTV in their house?
Haven't got anything to hide after all.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by nffc » 25 Jan 2015, 18:00

I don't think you get my point they would not be interested in as you put it "snooping" on 99.999% of the population, only those that are a security risk to the 99.999%

To suggest having CCTV in my house is a ridiculous counter. Why would they be interested in that? Exactly the same answer as to listening to my phone calls. They won't be

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Surprised » 25 Jan 2015, 18:51

nffc wrote:I don't think you get my point they would not be interested in as you put it "snooping" on 99.999% of the population, only those that are a security risk to the 99.999%

To suggest having CCTV in my house is a ridiculous counter. Why would they be interested in that? Exactly the same answer as to listening to my phone calls. They won't be

So you are suggesting snooping on everyone is not needed as they already know the ones to watch who they identified without needing to snoop.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by nffc » 25 Jan 2015, 19:41

They will know who to "snoop" on from intelligence.

Listening into everyone in the UK is impossible and is never going to happen anyway as it is pointless. CCTV in my house is not going to happen as it is also pointless. But a terrorist attack is going to happen and if they need to "snoop" on some religious nutcase to find out when, who & where to try save some lives then why does it bother you?

All of your worries are so far fetched, pointless and impractical but the threat of terrorism is real.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by crispybits » 25 Jan 2015, 20:02

The point nffc is that we don't need to give them the power to snoop on everyone if they already know who to snoop on. It's an un-necessary surrender of civil liberties and individual privacy. Nobody is saying they should never be able to snoop on anyone (or that they would ever completely stick to the rules and not snoop on everyone regardless of the rules - see the NSA), just that the rules should require them to show some sort of link to actual danger to society before they're allowed to go digging around in somebody's life.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Steph » 25 Jan 2015, 20:17

nffc wrote:
Listening into everyone in the UK is impossible and is never going to happen anyway as it is pointless.
It is certainly possible and most probably already happening - at least in terms of systematic data storage and analysis of web search terms, twitter and face book posts, etc. Also possibly vehicle movements?

The limiting factors are computer processing power, storage capacity, and political acceptability.

Should I worry if I am not a terrorist? If you have strong views on the environment, animal rights, trade unionism, pacifism, anti-capitalism etc or in any way present a threat to the establishment then most certainly yes! Blacklists that deny people employment existed for decades. Anti-terror legislation was used to evict a geriatric heckler from a Labour party conference. Secret policemen formed long-term relationships with young women in order to infiltrate the environmental movement. Blair assisted Gaddafi by snatching Libyan dissidents (and their families!) and shipping them out to far flung places - most likely to be tortured. These are all examples that were allowed to be reported widely in the press. Sorry, but I dont have the same faith in those in power as you do.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by nffc » 25 Jan 2015, 20:31

Steph wrote:
nffc wrote:
Listening into everyone in the UK is impossible and is never going to happen anyway as it is pointless.
It is certainly possible and most probably already happening - at least in terms of systematic data storage and analysis of web search terms, twitter and face book posts, etc. Also possibly vehicle movements?

The limiting factors are computer processing power, storage capacity, and political acceptability.

Should I worry if I am not a terrorist? If you have strong views on the environment, animal rights, trade unionism, pacifism, anti-capitalism etc or in any way present a threat to the establishment then most certainly yes! Blacklists that deny people employment existed for decades. Anti-terror legislation was used to evict a geriatric heckler from a Labour party conference. Secret policemen formed long-term relationships with young women in order to infiltrate the environmental movement. Blair assisted Gaddafi by snatching Libyan dissidents (and their families!) and shipping them out to far flung places - most likely to be tortured. These are all examples that were allowed to be reported widely in the press. Sorry, but I dont have the same faith in those in power as you do.
Fair point well made and that is abuse of legislation. Thankfully we are not China, Russia, etc and it does not happen that often but you are correct it does.

I still think that security services should have almost unlimited access for the sole purpose of preventing attacks but your post highlights the need for safeguards to prevent abuse of powers

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Re: Free Speech

Post by DrBunker » 25 Jan 2015, 20:49

nffc wrote:I don't think you get my point they would not be interested in as you put it "snooping" on 99.999% of the population, only those that are a security risk to the 99.999%
Yes, absolutely. Right now. But only bc it's Muslim terrorists that the security forces (and more importantly you) are scared about. The point that has been made a few times before is that it's what happens when the rights you're giving away today are used to catch ppl who don't fit the current targets that we're also talking about. And that assumes that the ONLY ppl they're looking for now are Muslim terrorists which is highly unlikely.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by RomynPG » 25 Jan 2015, 23:32

nffc wrote:Fair point well made and that is abuse of legislation. Thankfully we are not China, Russia, etc and it does not happen that often but you are correct it does.

I still think that security services should have almost unlimited access for the sole purpose of preventing attacks but your post highlights the need for safeguards to prevent abuse of powers
... yes nice post Steph ...


almost ... where's your boundary for that .... they seem to gunning for it all - including wishing to compromise encryption technologies.

sole purpose ... we all know that's not how it will pan out.

safeguards to prevent abuse ... we're meant to have those safeguards already but the Snowden revelations clearly show that means squat.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by RomynPG » 25 Jan 2015, 23:49

... at least we are debating the issue ... our Parliament doesn't necessarily work the way we would hope...

Tell Britain's Lords: Don't Let the Snooper's Charter Sneak Past You!

A small group of former police chiefs, defence ministers and intelligence officials in the House of Lords are attempting to sneak in Internet spying provisions into the law next Monday, without any explanation or warning.

... that's tomorrow.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Zimmerman » 26 Jan 2015, 20:44

“@Know: You're more likely to be killed by your sofa than by a terrorist attack. (Via Google Facts - @GoogleFacts)”

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Re: Free Speech

Post by murf » 26 Jan 2015, 21:45

Is DFS one of those acronym lot that DrB was warning us about?

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