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trampie
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Corbyn

Post by trampie » 13 Aug 2015, 11:52

If Corbyn wins, his opening address should be that his intention is to show the door to the Tories that are currently in the Labour party, return it to its socialist roots and declare that he has more in common with the SNP/Plaid and Greens than lots of people currently in Labour who are now no longer welcome in the party.

Nail colours to the mast and all that.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by 7lb claimer » 13 Aug 2015, 12:29

Obama will have a friend at last :D

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Re: Corbyn

Post by trampie » 13 Aug 2015, 13:07

7lb claimer wrote:Obama will have a friend at last :D
I don't know about that, socialist, CND, stop the war, friend of Palestine, etc, etc I don't think any right wing imperialist leaders will see much common cause with Corbyn.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Striker » 13 Aug 2015, 13:15

trampie wrote:If Corbyn wins, his opening address should be that his intention is to show the door to the Tories that are currently in the Labour party, return it to its socialist roots and declare that he has more in common with the SNP/Plaid and Greens than lots of people currently in Labour who are now no longer welcome in the party.

Nail colours to the mast and all that.
If in the 21st century the party returned to its 19th and early 20th century socialist roots, the Tories would be laughing all the way into the mid 2020s.

It seems that a sizeable element of those on the left of the party, (not all unfortunately :wink: ) seem to value their ideal scenario over an electable compromise.

In a democracy, nothing is really achieved by preaching to the converted when the latter represent a minority of the electorate.

But heyho, if the old fashioned socialist element of the Labour party are intent on wrecking the party's electoral chances for the foreseeable future, they've only got themselves to blame if policies followed after 2020 are right wing rather than centrist.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by trampie » 13 Aug 2015, 13:34

Striker wrote:
trampie wrote:If Corbyn wins, his opening address should be that his intention is to show the door to the Tories that are currently in the Labour party, return it to its socialist roots and declare that he has more in common with the SNP/Plaid and Greens than lots of people currently in Labour who are now no longer welcome in the party.

Nail colours to the mast and all that.
If in the 21st century the party returned to its 19th and early 20th century socialist roots, the Tories would be laughing all the way into the mid 2020s.

It seems that a sizeable element of those on the left of the party, (not all unfortunately :wink: ) seem to value their ideal scenario over an electable compromise.

In a democracy, nothing is really achieved by preaching to the converted when the latter represent a minority of the electorate.

But heyho, if the old fashioned socialist element of the Labour party are intent on wrecking the party's electoral chances for the foreseeable future, they've only got themselves to blame if policies followed after 2020 are right wing rather than centrist.
The Labour party should be the Labour party, not another Tory party, no point in being the Labour party otherwise, if the electorate [particularly in England] don't want social justice policies then fine, that's democracy, there is no rationale in being the Labour party and offering Tory lite policies, the electorate could vote for the Tories on the right, Libs in the centre or Labour on the left but unfortunately Labour are between the Libs and the Tories out on the right, Labour should stay true to their founding principles and if people vote for them fine, if people don't vote for them its the people choice, but for Labour to be another Tory party is a nonsense.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Maldini » 13 Aug 2015, 13:38

What if the 5% Labour need to gain power are not among the 25% who voted Tory but the 34% who didn't vote?

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Steph » 13 Aug 2015, 14:11

The reason the country is so right wing is partly that the alternative is never presented in debate in media or parliament. Labour may not get elected under Corbyn but at least they will represent those who believe in social justice and give voice to something different. Would also be good to have an opposition this parliament

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Striker » 13 Aug 2015, 14:56

Maldini wrote:What if the 5% Labour need to gain power are not among the 25% who voted Tory but the 34% who didn't vote?
I believe (without any real evidence) that a Corbyn led Labour party would probably persuade a large number of non voters to vote and this could well exceed the missing 5%. Unfortunately for Labour he would probably also lose more than that number from those who voted Labour in May. In addition if he made progress in reducing political apathy he'd probably also mobilise a limited number of non voters to vote against him.

A majority of the population are somewhere near the middle of British politics and any party far from there in either direction are unlikely to be electable. The people who matter in electoral terms are floating voters, and the vast majority of these are somewhere near the political centre.

trampie's view is a viable one in that he is consistent. If he prefers a party that sticks to a whole range of what he regards as more equitable policies to one which is electable but which would compromise and only legislate to a limited extent in the "direction" that he prefers, that's possibly a tenable position.

HOWEVER, the majority of people put practical outcomes before political principle, (putting pragmatism before principle can be totally consistent with maintaining personal integrity).

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Striker » 13 Aug 2015, 15:27

Steph wrote:The reason the country is so right wing
Talk about starting the argument of a case with a personal value judgement!! :wink:

I don't think that the vast majority of American or Chinese citizens, or indeed the vast majority of the world would share your very personal view.

You have a perfect right to think that UK is "so right wing" but it is just a view and not a fact as you seem to suggest.

Obviously there are countries which are more egalitarian than the UK and which adopt policies which stress social and economic justice more than we do, and so yes we could be more left.

However we are more left than a large number of countries, and we also have greater social justice and more equitable policies than some countries under left leaning governments.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by mikeg13 » 13 Aug 2015, 18:27

Do find it very annoying when people make the daft assumption that unless you believe in left wing politics, you dont have a social conscience, in my life time some of the worst people have known, when it comes to caring about others, would never vote anything but Labour.
Not a fan of Socialism to me it needs people to want to thrive and I want a world of people who have, its great at spending assets that capitalism creates but a disaster when it comes to creating those assets.
If they are daft enough to elect Corbyn then they are pretty much turning country into a 1 party state and thats terrible for the country.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by forestfan » 13 Aug 2015, 21:05

It will be fascinating to see what happens if he does get the job... will he be able to form a credible shadow cabinet or impose the party whip on MPs, will MPs resign or defect, or even break away and form a new party in a repeat of the 80s? If it's a disaster, how long will it be drawn out for and who will the eventual "saviour" be, one of the young candidates who chose not to stand this time, or an experienced head, maybe even David Miliband?

Of course he might get the job and really strike a chord with the disillusioned electorate, get most of the party in line and be getting the keys to number 10 in 5 years' time... whatever you think of his policies, a 70-year-old career rebel backbencher heading for the top job would be remarkable and scary at the same time...

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Re: Corbyn

Post by 7lb claimer » 13 Aug 2015, 21:32

This would be similar to the Michael Foot leadership where his left wing policies turned a double digit lead into a landslide defeat in the 1983 election. The gang of four left to form the SDP soon after he was elected leader and was close to becoming the second party. Michael Foot was far more charismatic than Corbyn and the nation imo would have found left wing politics more acceptable back then. The 1983 election manifesto was described as 'The longest suicide note in history' and really now the UK has moved more to the centre Mr Corbyn would have an impossible task. Expect massive defections, the Lib Dems to rise from the dead and the pound to strengthen as investors love stability and this Government looks good for a very long time.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by murf » 13 Aug 2015, 21:57

forestfan wrote:It will be fascinating to see what happens if he does get the job...
The only people who will be laughing harder than Conservative party members will be newspaper editors sharpening their poison pens. He will be ridiculed non stop til the day he wins less seats than whoever the forgettable bod was that replaced Nick Clegg.

Shape the Lib Dems are in such bad nick actually, any new SDPesque breakaway will have nobody to merge with.

But, hey, its better than being the Tory Lites :wink:

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Re: Corbyn

Post by trampie » 13 Aug 2015, 23:18

Some say Labour will be unelectable under Corbyn - who cares ?, what is the difference between the red Tories and the blue Tories ? - answer very little.

So Socialists are going to have Tory policies no matter who gets in whether its NuLabour or the Conservative party, so it doesn't matter if Corbyn is unelectable to middle England, Socialists are going to end up with Tory policies anyway.

But if Corbyn does get elected leader then hopefully from English Socialists point of view, the left view point will be on the agenda and get discussed which is not the case now, I say English Socialists point of view as Corbyn might be no good for the left in the Celtic countries [SNP and Plaid].

The BBC are hopelessly right wing, I know that some call them left wing but the argument for them being right wing is the Beeb has tracked Labour all the way over to the right wing over the decades, all the time trying to stay between Labour and the Conservatives, but in doing so they don't give the left wing argument coverage, a local newspaper guy reviewing the papers just before the leaders debate was looking forward to hearing the 3 women [Plaid/SNP/Greens] and their anti austerity message because noble prize winners for economics were supporting their view and it was noted we don't get to hear the argument form the left because the media in general only focus on Labour and the Conservatives who are both out on the right.

So at least with Corbyn both sides of the argument could be heard instead of just full on Tory or Tory lite which is all we get now, the left can only hope that Corbyn builds the left back up so that in a decade or so there will be a bona fide alternative to Tory policies, Corbyn not winning an election in 2020 in the grand scheme of things might not really matter, its the long game that matters and the left will take a long time to get back into power.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Steph » 13 Aug 2015, 23:34

mikeg13 wrote:Do find it very annoying when people make the daft assumption that unless you believe in left wing politics, you dont have a social conscience
Certainly wouldn't make that assumption myself about individuals but it is how I see the tories and more importantly the narrative in public discourse. The country is much more right wing than I have known for a long time. The poor, the weak, immigrants are talked about in terms that I thought disappeared decades ago. All very dehumanising with little or no interest in seeing things from other people's perspective. Labour for the past 5 years have been petrified of properly countering that view point in case they are seen as soft and therefore 'unelectable'. What they need above all else is someone who offers an alternative, believes in what they say, and says so with conviction.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by forestfan » 14 Aug 2015, 18:26

7lb claimer wrote:This would be similar to the Michael Foot leadership where his left wing policies turned a double digit lead into a landslide defeat in the 1983 election. The gang of four left to form the SDP soon after he was elected leader and was close to becoming the second party. Michael Foot was far more charismatic than Corbyn and the nation imo would have found left wing politics more acceptable back then. The 1983 election manifesto was described as 'The longest suicide note in history' and really now the UK has moved more to the centre Mr Corbyn would have an impossible task. Expect massive defections, the Lib Dems to rise from the dead and the pound to strengthen as investors love stability and this Government looks good for a very long time.
Is it really that people in England don't want left wing policies, or just that they didn't want half-hearted left wing policies delivered by nondescript career politicians like Ed Miliband? Left wing populist movements have won a lot of support in a number of countries from Scotland to Greece... while it might seem far fetched that the youth of this country will unite behind a bearded pensioner, Corbyn is offering something that the disaffected (non-) voters might see as a genuine alternative, and even if the Tory media and elements of his own party slaughter him it might just boost his public appeal.

Not saying his approach would work, some of his policies are attractive in an idealistic sense but wouldn't hold water economically, and we certainly don't want a return to the 1970s or a country effectively run by Len McCluskey and Mick Cash, but the disillusioned sections of society won't necessarily appreciate that. It's a question of whether he will gain them more supporters than he loses, and that's anyone's guess really.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Striker » 15 Aug 2015, 11:26

Interesting that when young people supporting Corbyn are interviewed on TV, they are generally ignorant of the electoral disaster resulting from Micheal Foot's policies. The odd one who is fully aware points out that we are now in a different age. That's true, but the fallacy of that argument is that overall the country is more conservative now than it was when it totally rejected the Bennite agenda.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by mikeg13 » 15 Aug 2015, 11:48

Do remember having exactly same debate during the Kinnock era, that turned out well, you could just change the names and you would be back then.
Trying to turn the clock back is not progressive, the Labour party mission was to improve the lot of the ordinary people as society was back then, it has to become relevant to the present not the past. Sadly it was high-jacked by a bunch of mainly middle class idealist who have no idea about aspirations of what was the working class of this country, more interested in theoretical aims rather than practical ideas that have at least a chance of working.
To take us now to what could be a one party state would have Labours founding fathers turning in their graves.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by jimmy ching » 15 Aug 2015, 15:08

Caught this video clip in the indie.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 55655.html
The presenter put it bluntly.
The three challenging kiddies are going to have to learn off the old man. :lol:

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Corbyn

Post by Maldini » 15 Aug 2015, 15:23

Refreshing, isn't it.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by MADCHESTER UTD » 03 Sep 2015, 15:17

Steph wrote:The reason the country is so right wing is partly that the alternative is never presented in debate in media or parliament. Labour may not get elected under Corbyn but at least they will represent those who believe in social justice and give voice to something different. Would also be good to have an opposition this parliament
I agree. even if corbyn has little chance of ever being PM, I'd much rather a leader like corbyn who will shake things up a bit and ask some proper questions in the H o P and hopefully bring some global issues into the mainstream such as the Bilderberg group. (look them up if you have never heard of them. truly shocking!). the way the mainstream media have tarnished corbyn is disgraceful.

andy burnham, Yvette cooper etc are puppets. if they get in they will be just like blair and brown. ie horrendous. at least corbyn speaks from the heart and knows what is right from wrong like tony benn did

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Zimmerman » 03 Sep 2015, 16:18

It's not necessarily all the work of the press.

I posted a comment on here after seeing him on the tele for the first time.

Zimmerman wrote:Jeremy Corbyn offered good entertainment on C4 News tonight.

Granted Krish is annoying and often tries to do a paxman but Jezzer was far too feisty.

Is he a genuine contender?
The press could have a field day with him.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by RomynPG » 03 Sep 2015, 17:14

MADCHESTER UTD wrote:... such as the Bilderberg group. (look them up if you have never heard of them. truly shocking!)
Rather than us look them up - can you post a couple of links that you think give the info that would shock us? - truly

... we can then judge for ourselves where it lies on our davidickeometers :D

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Re: Corbyn

Post by bluenosey » 03 Sep 2015, 17:54

So what does Jeremy Corby stand for ? From what I've gleaned :-

Nationalisation - Agree, will always go along with this although not sure how it would work but it would be good to stop the energy companies ripping us off.

Getting rid of the Royals - Disagree. Not a big royalist but the thought of a republic means is not good. That said, I like William and Kate and Harry. If I didn't, I might have a different view.

Scrapping Tuition Fees - Agree. The kids are screwed today and the last thing we want to do is lumber them with a pile of debt for furthering their edcuation.

Sympathy for terrorist groups - Not keen on his Hamas and Al Queda sympathies and general anti-American stance. Dialogue, maybe, in a Mo Mowlem type of way but I'm not convinced.

Taxing the rich - Agree. Something that Labour have never done in my lifetime but tax not more than 50%. The one good idea Ed had was the mansion tax but it provoked outrage from the luvvies/Islington set, so not sure how taxing the rich would effect his relationship with his fellow well heeled Islington chums ? Move the emphasis back onto VAT too.

Immigration - Disagree, mainly. Help genuine refugees but he seems open to mass immigration judging by his comments. On the basis of the ground Labour lost to UKIP, it seems a good chunk of Labour voters will not agree with him either. See Andy Burnham's comments on this for a much more realistic assessment.

Cutting Less, spending more - Disagree. The old Labour Achilles heal. Spend, spend, spend (even though some would be good) This is madness IMO.

but the one thing that will make Corbyn and Labour unlectable :-

Scrapping Nuclear Weapons - Disagree. See Michael Foot. See Neil Kinnock. We hope to never use them but with the Russians kicking up a fuss we need these bargaining chips. I'm also in the camp that sees nuclear weapons as helping prevent any further world wars. Not good if we get rid and one of our neighbours does the opposite.

Personally, I do not think he represents the normal man in the street. A sort of modern day Tony Benn. The so called intellectuals/luvvies/Islington set/Brands of this World may be attracted to him but your normal Labour working class voter ? Can't see it. Got to be Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall (or Chukka if he hadn't pulled out). Someone youngish and dynamic, rather than a Foot-esque eccentric. He's just missing the anorak.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by bluenosey » 03 Sep 2015, 17:56

trampie wrote: The BBC are hopelessly right wing,
Wow :o

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Maldini » 03 Sep 2015, 18:31

What does Bluenosey stand for?

From what I've gleaned from that post...

He's beyond gullible and believes anything his right wing press tell him. :shock:

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Re: Corbyn

Post by 7lb claimer » 03 Sep 2015, 18:36

bluenosey wrote:
trampie wrote: The BBC are hopelessly right wing,
Wow :o
BBC World News isn't.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by bluenosey » 03 Sep 2015, 18:50

Maldini wrote:What does Bluenosey stand for?

From what I've gleaned from that post...

He's beyond gullible and believes anything his right wing press tell him. :shock:
So wanting public ownership of companies, no tuition fees and a higher rate of income tax for the rich makes me right wing ?

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Re: Corbyn

Post by bluenosey » 03 Sep 2015, 18:55

7lb claimer wrote:
bluenosey wrote:
trampie wrote: The BBC are hopelessly right wing,
Wow :o
BBC World News isn't.
The Beeb have always been just left of centre, apart from Question Time, which lurched very left pre election until the Leaders Debate itself, where there was a much more balanced Q & A aimed at the political leaders by a general audience.

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Re: Corbyn

Post by Maldini » 03 Sep 2015, 19:18


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