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"Anti" Islamic State

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Dennisthemenace
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"Anti" Islamic State

Post by Dennisthemenace » 14 Sep 2014, 11:28

Great point just made on BBC News from a muslim chappie in Leeds re the beheading of David Haines yesterday

His point was that the media should stop calling them Islamic State and should actually start calling them 'Anti' Islamic State as they having nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. Good point I thought.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by nffc » 14 Sep 2014, 11:45

They need wiping from face of the earth. Anyone that says its not our problem and we should not get involved in the middle east again is living in their own little bubble. Their goal is world domination and if not stopped they will move onto firstly Lebanon and Jordan, then beyond with Turkey on their doorstep where we will have no choice but to intervene. It will be easier to take them on now before their evil has spread further and they have become much stronger.
Doing nothing due to past mistakes will be an even bigger mistake

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Dennisthemenace » 14 Sep 2014, 12:26

Yes, but should the media be calling them the Ant-Islamic State rather than the Islamic State ? :D

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by forestfan » 14 Sep 2014, 12:33

Better than calling them the Oxford Boat Race reserve crew :wink:

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Striker » 14 Sep 2014, 12:38

forestfan wrote:Better than calling them the Oxford Boat Race reserve crew :wink:
There must be a few institutions around Oxford that are now under threat from ignorant CIA operatives. :wink:

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Surprised » 14 Sep 2014, 12:40

Dennisthemenace wrote:Yes, but should the media be calling them the Ant-Islamic State rather than the Islamic State ? :D

They are nothing to do with Islam so why not.
Imagine how upset UKIP and others on the far right would be with that. Pretending that ISIS are Muslim is a wet dream to UKIP as they can abuse it and use it to hate and stir up even more hate.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Striker » 14 Sep 2014, 12:57

Surprised wrote:Pretending that ISIS are Muslim is a wet dream to UKIP as they can abuse it and use it to hate and stir up even more hate.
But they are Islamic. What is important is to remain clear that they are nutters, deciding for themselves which bits of the Islamic faith suit them and which bits don't, and are not at all representative even of the majority of Sunnis.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Surprised » 14 Sep 2014, 13:03

Striker wrote:
Surprised wrote:Pretending that ISIS are Muslim is a wet dream to UKIP as they can abuse it and use it to hate and stir up even more hate.
But they are Islamic. What is important is to remain clear that they are nutters, deciding for themselves which bits of the Islamic faith suit them and which bits don't, and are not at all representative even of the majority of Sunnis.
They also kill may Muslims, mostly Shias.
They are not Islamic in that they are fighting for Islam but instead for Sunni domination. All they have done is hijack Islam to push their agenda and create anti-Muslim feelings as that helps them.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Striker » 14 Sep 2014, 13:14

Similar to Catholics and Protestants at various times in history. Both lots were usually acting in contravention of several of Jesus's teachings but both were Christian.

I've always said that the cores of most religions are good, but there's nothing like a ............... to put me off ...........

You can fill in the blanks with virtually any religion, Christian and Christianity, Muslim and Islam, and many others, take your pick.

However detestable it is, the Islamic State is Islamic.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Surprised » 14 Sep 2014, 13:22

As you say most, if not all, religions are decent at the core but people cheery pick pieces they want to believe and pieces they pretend is not relevant. What you end up with no longer represents the religion in any way as it has morphed into something else. I think that is the way with ISIS. It vaguely resembles Islam but nothing they do or say has anything to do with Islam. It gets called Islam because it's easy to do so and suits the media agenda in the West..

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Striker » 14 Sep 2014, 13:31

So basically your last post completely agrees with my earlier one. :wink: :lol: :wink:
Striker wrote:But they are Islamic. What is important is to remain clear that they are nutters, deciding for themselves which bits of the Islamic faith suit them and which bits don't, and are not at all representative even of the majority of Sunnis.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Surprised » 14 Sep 2014, 13:32

Yes.
I told you that in my post.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by jimmy ching » 14 Sep 2014, 14:00

Is it time for another name change.
Here's an interesting quote of their existance.

The Islamic State has gone through numerous name changes since its founding in Iraq in 1999. originally known as Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād (JTJ), (“The Organization of Monotheism and Jihad”), it changed to Tanẓīm Qāʻidat al-Jihād fī Bilād al-Rāfidayn (“The Organization of Jihad’s Base in the Country of the Two Rivers”) in 2004 after the group swore allegiance to Osama Bin Laden. During this period it was popularly known as Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI). In 2006 it became the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), but changed again in 2013 after expanding into Syria. At that point it became Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) or Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS). Its latest moniker, the “Islamic State,” came about after the proclamation of a new caliphate on June 29, 2014.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Dennisthemenace » 14 Sep 2014, 14:31

The things is that we really shouldn't give a toss what they want to call themselves, they don't deserve that respect whatsoever. We should call them what they deserve to be called and that needs to be something that helps to halt any anti-muslim feelings in the West.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by jimmy ching » 14 Sep 2014, 14:49

So what do we call the alliance, The Dronebies?

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by t.gridley » 14 Sep 2014, 15:37

No combat troops to be used, three or four aircraft carriers full of high precision planes, used in conjunction with drones.

Any Isis offensive weapons along with clusters of combat "troops" to be destroyed.

Repeat until Isis are no longer relevant.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by jimmy ching » 14 Sep 2014, 15:42

Do you remember when Issac Asimov was called a sci-fi writer?

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by murf » 14 Sep 2014, 16:44

Were the IRA the anti - catholics and same on other side?

Are Bush , Blair, Obama and Cameron the anti - Christians?

Thou Shalt Not Kill

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Zimmerman » 15 Sep 2014, 06:28

No they weren't/aren't;

But they WERE the IRA. They werent the Catholic Irish Republican Army, or the catholic freedom party, simply the IRA.

We don't talk about Israel's Jewish army... just "Israel".

The atheist Ukranians/Russians?

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by bluenosey » 15 Sep 2014, 18:20

It's not an anti-islamic state but a state loyal to the Qu'ran.

The Qu'ran talks of a caliphate for all Muslims practising Sharia Law. The last such Caliphate was the Ottoman Empire, who got into bed with the wrong powers in WW1 but made quite an impact at Gallipoli. The remnants of this empire are why you have all the problems in the Balkans, which came to a head in the 90s but also had a hand in triggering WW1.

This verse appears in the Qu'ran too :-

"YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. "

Obviously it's a matter of interpretation and the Sunni Muslims are taking it word for word. A bit like the Protestant Puritans of the middle ages, some people take things to the nth degree. Probably most Muslims will be quick to condone the beheadings, however, a good chunk were all for Sharia years ago :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... in-UK.html

Sharia has already have seeped into everyday life, from Islamic banks, a Halal meat monopoly and now Sharia friendly student loans. On top of the reluctance to speak out against Muslim actions (trying to take over State schools and the Rotherham child abuse) means that we've already given in to an extent and those jihadis who return will be quick to influence others.
We need to nip that in the bud as a country but as we've already capitulated to an extent trying to appease Islam at every corner, so it's not going to be easy.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Surprised » 15 Sep 2014, 21:31

The figure in that ICM poll of 40% wanting Sharia law was shown to have been misreported by the rightwing media. When Sharia law is talked about people automatically think of stoning adulterers, executing apostates and amputating the limbs of thieves. The details of the poll showed that almost every Muslim wanting Sharia law wanted it for sorting out civil disputes in the Muslim community much as Jewish communities do so now.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by murf » 15 Sep 2014, 21:54

Surprised wrote:The figure in that ICM poll of 40% wanting Sharia law was shown to have been misreported by the rightwing media. When Sharia law is talked about people automatically think of stoning adulterers, executing apostates and amputating the limbs of thieves. The details of the poll showed that almost every Muslim wanting Sharia law wanted it for sorting out civil disputes in the Muslim community much as Jewish communities do so now.
...just as many christians would say you should follow the bible then hypocrically choose which bits (can use similar arguments for muslims/koran).

There are many versions on variations on Sharia Law so it is as dodgy a question as the Scottish independence one with the only possibl eanswer being "well, that depends on the specifics"

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by bluenosey » 28 Sep 2014, 18:31

Surprised wrote:The figure in that ICM poll of 40% wanting Sharia law was shown to have been misreported by the rightwing media. When Sharia law is talked about people automatically think of stoning adulterers, executing apostates and amputating the limbs of thieves. The details of the poll showed that almost every Muslim wanting Sharia law wanted it for sorting out civil disputes in the Muslim community much as Jewish communities do so now.
The right wing media have to report it because the left will just brush it under the carpet (like Rotherham)

Whilst I agree with the air strikes, I wish we or the States were not involved and it was left to the other Arab countries. You can see the headlines now.....Brutal Western crusaders wage war against Muslims...

Whilst the air strikes may keep ISIS at bay there's lots of other similar extremist organisations out there, such as the Algerians that beheaded the poor French bloke. How we defeat this rather warped take on Islam is going to be difficult and when those ISIS fighters return to Europe and the UK, it could get nasty.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Steph » 28 Sep 2014, 19:23

Agree air strikes may be necessary but only for limited purposes (i.e. stopping major military advances). There is no point hitting cities and causing civilian casualties which will only increase support for ISIS. If there are no clear and justifiable targets then air strikes should not be carried out just to be seen to do something.

One thing I read today (in the Times I think) was that many of the foreign fighters joined up to fight Assad before IS emerged and now have no way of leaving. That seems entirely different to me than joining up IS knowing what they have been up to (after all many in the West were also calling for war against Assad). I only ever hear estimates of numbers of IS fighters not how many joined when.

As far as Sharia is concerned, I wonder to what extent it means different things to different people?? Wikipedia seems quite vague, that it covers matters of food, personal hygiene through civil matters like tax, inheritance, marriage and divorce right through to the extremes seen in the criminal justice system of some countries. Could someone with a better understanding of Islam enlighten us?

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Billy Whiz » 03 Oct 2014, 19:56

Either way, we're never going to defeat Isil by dropping bombs on them, any more than we would have defeated, say, the IRA by trying to drop bombs on them. Inevitably civilians will be killed, and that will only add fuel to the fire. As far as I can see all we've done so far is damage a few buildings and take out the odd Toyota pick-up driving across the desert. Oh, and sending one of our Tornadoes out there costs £1million a mission. So this is wrong ethically, it's wrong strategically, and it's a phenomenal waste of money.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Steph » 03 Oct 2014, 21:15

It is hard to judge how much of a deterrence it is, because IS may be being held back simply by the prospects of air strikes when it comes to major troop concentrations. If so, then that is a success and doesn't even need many missions to be flown.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by murf » 03 Oct 2014, 21:47

If it was managed right this could all be a massive PR gain as many islamic states are in the alliance, probably now including Turkey. All added to the apparent outcome that many muslim youths are being put off joining IS because they see the beheading videos as too cruel and barbaric.

Unfortunately it still looks like Team America:World Police just nuking some muslims.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by bluenosey » 03 Oct 2014, 22:06

I really don't think we quite know what's happening. So many separate factions. All caused by the vacuum left by toppling Saddam. I'm not convinced we get the full story on the TV, although it's a bit less censored than, say, Chinese TV.

I don't like the idea that we're involved in the bombings but then again, I don't like the thought of people burying innocent woman and children alive, crucifying them and forcing them off cliffs.

So something has to be done - only wish we were in the background and leaving it to the Arab states

Also we need to find out who is funding them. Can't be that difficult, can it ? The Saudis ? Qatar ?

As I've said before, you can't defeat an idea. Get rid of ISIS and Boko Harum will go out and capture a few hundred Christian girls for slavery. Or the Algerian wing will start a few more beheadings. And so on and so forth. The old "heads of the hydra" syndrome.

Our money would be better spent preventing creeping Islam in the UK rather than meddling abroad.

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Spinynorman » 03 Oct 2014, 22:14

It would seem that Alan Henning has been murdered.

Bloody awful. :(

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Re: "Anti" Islamic State

Post by Dennisthemenace » 03 Oct 2014, 22:17

It's important to stop them to stop them getting out of control. At the moment there are thousands of them, what nobody wants is for there to be hundreds of thousands. It's always about the oil of course, we don't want to leave them alone so that they get their grubby hands on it do we?

Success always breeds success. They cannot be successful in their medieval ferocity.

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