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Surprised
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22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Surprised » 14 Dec 2012, 19:57

29 dead of which 22 are children under the age of 11. Any attempt at debate by those wishing to ban guns will be shouted down by the pro gun lobby who will claim " now is not the time to discuss guns"
When will Americans learn that their gun culture kills people?
This is a tragedy but all too familiar in the USA.

My thoughts are with the families that have lost someone in this shooting and so close to Christmas too.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Malrom » 14 Dec 2012, 19:59

Surprised wrote:29 dead of which 22 are children under the age of 11. Any attempt at debate by those wishing to ban guns will be shouted down by the pro gun lobby who will claim " now is not the time to discuss guns"
When will Americans learn that their gun culture kills people?
This is a tragedy but all too familiar in the USA.

My thoughts are with the families that have lost someone in this shooting and so close to Christmas too.

Like Dirty Harry..... :shock: :shock:

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Spinynorman » 14 Dec 2012, 20:03

Terrible news. :(

As an aside Facebook is a crazy place when it comes to guns if you have USA friends. Their views are really quite beyond me. :?

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Steph » 14 Dec 2012, 20:05

Very very sad. Poor children :-(

I am just glad our society is not one where guns are everywhere

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by WilBert » 14 Dec 2012, 20:20

Noticed that the man's mother was a schoolteacher at the school and amongst the suspected dead. Twisted evil individual.

Yep surprised, they will wheel Charlton Heston out again.


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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Surprised » 14 Dec 2012, 20:25

The killers father was also found dead at the family home.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Richt » 14 Dec 2012, 20:43

Spinynorman wrote:Terrible news. :(

As an aside Facebook is a crazy place when it comes to guns if you have USA friends. Their views are really quite beyond me. :?
Rich Tidmarsh
about an hour ago via Mobile ·
About time gun laws were changed in the States?
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James Robinson, Jacqui Rodgers Watt, Karen Connolly Stevenson and 6 others like this.

Chris Beasley Not the view of many folks that you read on here though. It just baffles me.
59 minutes ago · Like

Barry Robertson my thoughts exactly....
54 minutes ago · Like

Nick Miles Like the gun laws we've got here ? Where people still get Shot ?
53 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lottie Barber Not just America or guns walk into any big supermarket in France and there's a counter where you can buy knives, cross bows, arrows and all sorts of hunting paraphernalia and how many cars get stopped at the ferry ports??
52 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lauren Kegelman Frazer The issue isnt the gun laws its the lack of care for the mentally unstable
51 minutes ago · Like · 1

Rich Tidmarsh fair enough IF it isn't because of the gun laws, why are there constant shootings in schools over there? Nick Miles
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Rich Tidmarsh thanks Lauren Kegelman Frazer good to get the perspective of someone yourside of the pond
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Terri Thomas I have no words......totally gobsmacked.....
48 minutes ago · Like

Nick Miles Well I agree with Lauren it's not the guns it's the people Behind them and the people who get them
46 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lauren Kegelman Frazer With out checking my facts I believe the states that this has happened have stricter gun laws then others. To the gasp of my friends I dont believe everyone should be able to own a gun, but i do know everyone can find one legally or not.
45 minutes ago · Like

Chris Beasley Those who have mental health problems and are dangerous are a worry, those who have mental health problems and are dangerous in countries where it's easy to get a gun are lethal.
43 minutes ago · Like · 1

Rich Tidmarsh Nick Miles, that was my point.
38 minutes ago · Like

Lottie Barber Scary stuff isn't it though and anyone can go from normal to mentally unstable without it being noticed as well as the ones mentally unstable to begin with
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Lauren Kegelman Frazer News here is saying the boy shot his mother a teacher at the school.
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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Moist von Lipwig » 14 Dec 2012, 20:57

:cry:

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by stevejtr » 14 Dec 2012, 20:58

WilBert wrote:Noticed that the man's mother was a schoolteacher at the school and amongst the suspected dead. Twisted evil individual.

Yep surprised, they will wheel Charlton Heston out again.

Probably not. He died in 2008

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by stevejtr » 14 Dec 2012, 20:58

Awful news, just awful

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Tacalabala » 14 Dec 2012, 21:02

Just seen Obama's statement. Honestly, watching that, deep down he'd outlaw guns tomorrow if he could, that's my impression.

There are plenty of Americans that need to grow up and smell the coffee - the majority of people are too irresponsible to be in control and in possession of a gun.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Steph » 14 Dec 2012, 21:12

It is completely obvious that open availability of guns allows tragedies like this to happen. Frankly, there is no point even having a debate about it because if people don't get something that simple, then it probably is beyond them no matter how many times you explain it.

More probable is that people don't care and that occasional tragedies are a price worth paying.

Why anyone would want to own a thing whose sole purpose is to kill another person, or why anyone would want other people to own such a thing is completely and utterly beyond me.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by murf » 14 Dec 2012, 21:41

All too common these days. Doesn't stop it being a massive tragedy every time.

Americans want guns. It is going to keep happening. I don't get it either but not much we can do from here but shake our heads and worry for our planet.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by barry » 14 Dec 2012, 22:07

Tacalabala wrote:Just seen Obama's statement.

watched it, had a tear in my eye.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Latic » 14 Dec 2012, 22:24

Very sad events. The only shocking thing for me is that I wasn't surprised.

The US needs a long f**king hard look at itself. The "a gun doesn't kill, it's the finger that pulls the trigger" argument does not wash with me. If there were fewer guns to shoot in this first place then this would be rarer.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Richt » 14 Dec 2012, 22:29

Me and the wife were having the same conversation Latic, about the fact that it wasn't a shock that there has been another school shooting.

We can count on the fingers of one hand how many there have been in the uk, Dunblane. Yet, there are countless ones over in yankee land.

Even if you compare the number of shootings in America with the whole of Europe (more on a par size wise), it is still way out numbered 'tother side of the Atlantic.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Latic » 14 Dec 2012, 22:33

The wife said "there's been another Dunblane" that's how it's referred to up here. Know someone who responded to Dunblane, sounded awful.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Achiles74 » 14 Dec 2012, 22:43

Appalling turn of events.

The use of dangerous weapons to attack innocents is becoming more widespread all over the world.

The USA and UK both need to deal with these type of attacks and ensure they are stopped before they happen.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Striker » 14 Dec 2012, 22:50

In a country full of guns and a fair sprinkling of nutters what can you expect?

It's difficult to reduce the gun ownership significantly but far more difficult to control the nutters.

So everyone except the American gun lobby and supporters know where the attention should be focussed.

The American right to carry a gun is as fundamentalist and outdated as certain religious practices in other countries which the the vast majority of Americans condemn. Go figure!

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Steph » 15 Dec 2012, 18:56

Striker wrote:In a country full of guns and a fair sprinkling of nutters what can you expect?

It's difficult to reduce the gun ownership significantly but far more difficult to control the nutters.

So everyone except the American gun lobby and supporters know where the attention should be focussed.

The American right to carry a gun is as fundamentalist and outdated as certain religious practices in other countries which the the vast majority of Americans condemn. Go figure!
Fundamentalist is what came to my mind too. Here are a couple of quotes from US users of another forum:

"Packing heat in school
Every time a school massacre occurs the topic of carrying guns in school by adults of age comes up.

For me as a big supporter of the Second Amendment I have always carried concealed.

So at university it was always odd not to. Even having a firearm in a car was a no no (I did anyhow)

So I'm curious how others feel about arming teachers and others who protect our children in absentia. "

and

"I agree with you. It's a shame that some people believe that their beliefs should be thrust unto others through the use of (government) force.

Though, Baroness, understand that a majority of British (and many other European peoples) do not believe in natural rights. We're sort of lucky, here in the US, that a majority of people still believe in the ideals eloquently penned by our founding (unfortunately we can't seem to elect a President, Senate or House that believe in the same things). Until then, our guns, resolve as Americans and commonly held belief in freedom are the only things that can protect us from evil.

We can't force the British to believe in freedom. People need to accept, believe in, sacrifice, and fight for freedom to truly understand it. It's easy to have an uninformed opinion about something (gosh, just look at some of the threads on here or look at Facebook and Twitter). After tragic events it's all too common to want to blame and point the finger at something else without facts. It's easy to say or want someone else's freedom or money to be taken away. The British have been very good at this throughout their history. So has Russia, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and just about any other powerful country. But so has the American government. Freedom is no easy, one step and one size fits all ideal. If there's one thing I've learned as I've grown, it's that one can only fight for their own freedom, not anyone else's. Forcing liberty upon someone is no more just than taking it away."

:shock:

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Pincher » 15 Dec 2012, 19:57

The best current anti-"gun's don't kill people, people do" argument at the moment has to be the recent case in China, where a guy with a knife managed to injure 22 kids, but, if media reports are correct, he didn't kill any - that's the difference between a firearm and any other sort of weapon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20724384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I saw Charlton Heston talk live back in 2000, and he actually said that "you can kill someone with a hairdryer" - as his argument for it being the people and not the guns - couldn't believe it at the time - of course Moore got the same out of him around the same time.

Regarding the banning of guns in the US, even with the best will in the world it would be very difficult now for a number of reasons. Firstly, as ever with the US, it is BIG business - that is the role of the NRA, and that's why they are strong. Secondly, it makes the average American feel safer (though this can be shown statistically to be completely incorrect) to carry a gun - to "protect" themselves. They don't seem to understand that realistically, if you are confronted with a "professional" criminal, with a gun, who is desperate enough to threaten you with it in the first place, then the chance that you coming out on top is pretty damn slim. Thirdly, is the legal issue of it being "enshrined" in the Second Amendment, though that could be watered down without too many problems. Fourthly, there are so many guns in circulation that other than for a legal obligation to hand them in, it would take a couple of generations to get them out of circulation.

Having said all that - they should obviously try! :? Actually, Obama is in a perfect position to try now if you ask me. Won't happen - but then again I said the same about Northern Ireland 20yrs ago, and my mind is changing on the status of Israel, but that topic has been dealt with elsewhere.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Surprised » 15 Dec 2012, 20:04

The pro gun lobby are now arguing that this proves that they need more guns and are calling for the teachers to be armed.

It reminds me of an advert I saw when working in Washington DC a few years ago. It featured 2 college kids in one of their parents homes, They were smoking dope and went into the study, got a gun from a drawer and were messing about and it went off killing one of them. I thought "Great. A public safety film about leaving a loaded gun in an unsecure place"
But no....it was about how drugs can dull your senses so don't smoke dope.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by stevejtr » 15 Dec 2012, 20:20

There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[5] One version was passed by the Congress,[6] while another is found in the copies distributed to the States[7] and then ratified by them.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[8]
The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and resides in the National Archives.


From Wiki.


This is fundamental (intentional use) to the basis of what made America. Whilst most of us on this side of the pond cannot see any justification in the 21st century for the need to bear arms, its so ingrained in American psyche unfortunately IMO its removal is unlikely in the short term.

Practically, removing millions of weapons would be a massive undertaking.

In the meantime, sadly, undertaking is the result.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by barry » 15 Dec 2012, 20:23

the intention was to be able to bear arms against a corrupt government was it not?

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Tacalabala » 15 Dec 2012, 21:07

stevejtr wrote:There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[5] One version was passed by the Congress,[6] while another is found in the copies distributed to the States[7] and then ratified by them.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[8]
The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and resides in the National Archives.


From Wiki.


This is fundamental (intentional use) to the basis of what made America. Whilst most of us on this side of the pond cannot see any justification in the 21st century for the need to bear arms, its so ingrained in American psyche unfortunately IMO its removal is unlikely in the short term.

Practically, removing millions of weapons would be a massive undertaking.

In the meantime, sadly, undertaking is the result.
Surely that is the most important criteria in the Amendment. How can anybody possibly justify, to give three examples, a obese housewife, person of questionable of mental health, or a person without an understanding of safe use and storage of a very dangerous weapon as being part of any sort of militia?

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Pouzar99 » 15 Dec 2012, 22:58

More than any developed country, Americans have been raised to believe all other nations are inferior, so they refuse to look at country's with superior health, campaign finance and gun laws and policies. Rational people consider all the possibilities before making crucial decisions but most Americans simply look down on anything outside their borders. That is the price of the moronic doctrine of American Exceptionalism.
In my lifetime support for near limitless gun ownership has grown dramatically as has the incidence of gun massacres. More than 10,000 Americans are killed by guns when most comparable countries are vastly lower on a per capita basis. Finally, there are an estimated 270 million privately owned handguns and there is no imaginable safe way of getting them back.
I can't even imagine the thoughts of the parents of those tiny, beautiful children, but there will never be a better day to politicize this issue. For the NRA the death of those kids and adults is just the cost of doing business. They will never be able to wash that ''damned spot,'' off their eternally unclean hands.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by WilBert » 15 Dec 2012, 23:30

Staggering facts Pouzar.

I would urge anyone to watch Bowling for Columbine which I posted a clip of Heston (the NRA would still wheel him out if they could, they are that sick) and it's a terrific and frightening piece of soul searching journalism.

Glad that so many teachers had the presence of mind to react quickly.
A library clerk who had ordered 18 children into a storage room before locking and barricading the door gave the children paper and crayons to keep them occupied. The police arrived at the door within an hour, the clerk, Maryann Jacob, told the Associated Press.

"One of them slid his badge under the door, and they called and said, `It's OK, it's the police,"' she said.

The schoolchildren were escorted hand-in-hand and were told the shut their eyes as they passed the principal's office, believed to be the scene of much of the carnage.
Wrong time to say it but it sounds like a fire alarm, well rehearsed. Normality - that's just wrong.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by Pouzar99 » 16 Dec 2012, 06:24

I got one number wrong. The last year for which we have reliable statistics on gun deaths in the US is 2007, when 31,000 were killed, about one every 20 minutes. Insanity.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by bluenosey » 16 Dec 2012, 09:30

Surprised wrote:The pro gun lobby are now arguing that this proves that they need more guns and are calling for the teachers to be armed.
It's like the Wild West never stopped. I heard the same thing - bloody crazy thinking :evil: No doubt the Guns Lobby will keep on quoting that amendment to the US constitution.

All the six and seven year olds amongst the dead. Just before Xmas. Awful but some parts of America need to wake up. Take a look over the border at Canada. You've got film stars supporting the gun law and rappers glamourising them. I can't see it happening. No doubt in a few months someone will get a parking ticket and go on the rampage. It just so so scewed up.

Obama needs to try and change this. I think Clinton managed to change a law for a while but nothing like this would happen under Bush. So come on Barack, try and sort it, or else we'll be commenting on the same thing in twelve months time.

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Re: 22 children shot dead in Connecticut school

Post by stevejtr » 16 Dec 2012, 09:37

barry wrote:the intention was to be able to bear arms against a corrupt government was it not?
Yes, but I fear that context is lost on the overwhelming majority of Americans, who just comprehend the bit about 'packing heat'.

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