Telegraph Fantasy Football Squad Manager 2010/11

[gillo]

Option 1/3 please!

And I'd also like to add some weight behind getting the competition open as early as possible! I nearly couldn't join last year as I was out of the country for 3 weeks before/during the start of the season. Luckily got a friend to buy the credit for me...

Please hurry as I am away for 6 weeks from the 25th July.....!!

Dave

[Oddsman]

I vote for reduced prize fund and run same as before. Obviously it depends on the drop but if the top prize dropped from 20 to 10k I doubt you'd lose anyone. Plus there wasn't a lot wrong with the site itself by then end of last season.

In the circumstances Art's suggestion gets my backing.

This forum's members should not feel solely persicuted though. If this game does survive it will be in a far healthier state than the current Telegraph's cricket game

Also TFF's 4 for £10 deal might well nudge teams back over 200,000 but the important figure is the number of managers/customers which will definitely go down after the disasterous launch nearly a year ago. Would have thought the powers that be at the Telegraph would have battled day and night to win back our trust and custom

Finishing on a positive ... congrats to the Telegraph on a superbly run TFF World Cup game bought about very prompt updates and a very clever Super32 competition. But just goes to show - that to get it right - it doesn't take rocket science.

[The Elkmaster]

I vote for reduced prize fund and run same as before. Obviously it depends on the drop but if the top prize dropped from 20 to 10k I doubt you'd lose anyone. Plus there wasn't a lot wrong with the site itself by then end of last season.

In the circumstances Art's suggestion gets my backing.

Mine too

[giblet]

I entered teams into the TFF competition yesterday then took a look on the FISO forum this morning to see if there was any indication of the launch date for my much more favoured TFFO competition. To my dismay and consternation I have read that such a launch is not imminent and indeed the Telegraph are strongly considering whether to run it at all!!

The squad-based TFFO has always been by far my favourite and most interesting fantasy football competition and if the Telegraph HAD to to get rid of one of their competitions I would much rather it had been the TFF one. I enter fantasy competitions first and foremost for the intrigue and enjoyment they offer plus the challenge of trying to prove I can be better than most. If I am good enough or lucky enough to end up with a prize then that is wonderful but overall merely icing on the cake. I would therefore still be prepared to to submit entries to the TFFO competition even if the prize structure is reduced somewhat if that is what is needed to continue the competition.

My enjoyment of what was at one time an excellent cricket competition has been vastly reduced this summer due to the Telegraph's decision to completely overlook the one-day games. To prevent the playing of TFFO for 2010-2011 would represent a further slap-in-the-face from the Telegraph to it's numerous loyal fantasy game players.

As has been mentioned in earlier posts why on earth do the Telegraph not advertise the TFFO game in it's own newspaper which would surely bring it to the attention of a great many more potential players? The fact that they do not suggests that there is maybe a faction therein who are opposed to running the TFFO game alongside the TFF one and are looking for the excuse to dispose of it.

I really do hope that in the coming week or two we will see the launch of the 2010-2011 TFFO competition as it will be a great shame and a great loss if that is not the case.

[melvin]

Sound like it could be the end of TFFO to me, going to miss this game.

I would go with the prize fund being based on the number of entrants and a reduced entry fee may just work to attract new players.

Hope it goes ahead but I'm not holding my breathe.

[Chocs]

I'd vote for an immediate launch based on last year's game and a reduced top prize, however this is structured.

[MERLIN]

Option 1 or 3 ,but agree needs advertising and launching earlier ,last years graphics and game play was much better than previous attempts do not see any reason to change it for next season, that then gives you a year to develop it further,I too do not see why there in not a Champ League offering but also include the Group stages

[dead parrot]

TFFO clearly enjoys very high loyalty among its core players but is too high maintenance to achieve mass popularity. The lack of marketing by the Telegraph is a puzzle and must be limiting entries. Given these factors the way forward would seem to be to budget for the existing numbers and fix the prizes accordingly but maximise them, in the short term, at the cost of development if necessary. I imagine running costs could also be reduced if greater use was made of the TFF infrastructure.
If attempts were made to gradually build on entry numbers by promoting the game more effectively it could well develop into a more stable game taking advantage of the apparent long term commitment to it from those who learn to love it through experience.

[Biscuitman]

We will not be running a Championship version of the game, nor will we be running TFF Weekly this season. TFFO is still in a state of limbo

Above is latest comment from TFFootball this morning from one of the TFF threads. Unfortunately, state of limbo sounds more negative to me than studying the options for a quick decision early this week, but I may be overdoing the nuance-reading!

Would be a travesty if this game were allowed to die, given the unsatisfactory (to me) options elsewhere, and if option 1 or 3 are indeed options then this has to be better than doing nothing. I await the white smoke from TFFootball HQ with fingers crossed.

[Pouzar]

Best game ever. Have loved playing it, but your constant refusal to listen to your customers, whom you STILL are not listening to, has probably killed it. The least you owe us is a coherent explanation of why you refuse to promote the game, give it a reasonable start date, more balanced prizes, greater emphasis on the monthly prize etc. Why do you thin the numbers have dropped from the 30,000 range to a few thousand? What is your theory?
This will probably drive me back to the classic OFL game, although I vastly prefer TFFO. Nothing personal gentleman, but this game, which is intrinsically the best and most challenging game on the market, has been killed by bad management. How many times a row can you launch it absurdly late with massive rule changes and act surprised that you are losing players and gaining few new ones?

[nickchild]

Give it to me - I'll run it for you!

Really is crazy that you even needed to ask the question.

You have a great product here, that the people using it really enjoy, but refuse to give it the attention it deserves.

Advertise it on your Fantasy Management Office at the very least - I'm sure this alone will generate a lot of interest. If you offer a TFF/TFFO package, this will generate even more interest and cash.


P.S. I've heard a rumour that newspaper advertising is effective. You'd just need to find a newspaper to advertise in. Oh, hang on a second........

[TFFootball]

Thanks for all the feedback. Clearly there are people that feel passionately about the game. We have a difficult decision to make and will let you know the result of that asap.

TFFootball

[mike_d99]

It doesn't look likely that we'll be getting TFFO this season. Can anyone recommend any other half-decent squad management games?

I've never played a non-Telegraph game before, so I have no idea what's what. Pouzar mentioned OFL, I'll have a look into that. Any others?

[Ashers]

I am staying positive.

[Vid]

It doesn't look likely that we'll be getting TFFO this season. Can anyone recommend any other half-decent squad management games?

I've never played a non-Telegraph game before, so I have no idea what's what. Pouzar mentioned OFL, I'll have a look into that. Any others?

FPL is quite popular but only a weekly game.
OFL is probably the closest, 16 man squad, game-to-game changes, scoring system is incredibly dull, player prices are poorly thought out.

[Art Vandelay]

I played OFL a few years ago. It's not as involving as TFFO but it's the only other option really. I'll stick a few teams in this season if TFFO doesn't run. Anyone know (roughly)
how many teams enter the OFL squad game?

[AkNotSpur]

Here's a 6th Option for you, TFFootball:-

Stop posting on FISO, reduce your work hours accordingly and then the TFFOSM Prize Pool can be funded from the resultant cost savings.

[Malrom]

Thanks for all the feedback. Clearly there are people that feel passionately about the game. We have a difficult decision to make and will let you know the result of that asap.

TFFootball

I feel passionately about the game too, but I'm not even allowed to play for years now

[reds363]

I played OFL a few years ago. It's not as involving as TFFO but it's the only other option really. I'll stick a few teams in this season if TFFO doesn't run. Anyone know (roughly)
how many teams enter the OFL squad game?

Last year about 25,000 teams played the 16-man 'OFL Classic' game. Probably is the closest game I know to TFFO, but as said above the scoring is very simplistic (I don't mind that, but some who are used to TFF/O might). Other main differences are no captains and much more flexible formations. £10k first prize (as of last season), and £5k prize for the Champions League-esque cup competition that is imo one of OFL's best assets. Oh, it has a much better/faster team set-up process too!

Don't want to give up on TFFO yet though, here's hoping they surprise us!


PS. Because I completely disagree with the previous-but-one post: TFFootball, thanks a lot for your presence on FISO (both in the TFF world and here) and honesty in answering questions and openness in letting us know what is going on and asking for our feedback. Even though you've brought us an unhappy update in the last few days, if you weren't here we'd be completely in the dark instead.

[Art Vandelay]

Thanks, so there's a similar game with a £10 entry fee and 10K top prize without the advantage of being linked to a national newspaper yet they're able to attract 25,000 people. It's not a lack of demand that's the problem.

[Biscuitman]

I too applaud the presence and engagement by TFFootball. I do puzzle over what is difficult about the decision - a decision which everyone knew months ago would have to be made at some point before the new season started. The response on this forum so far has been practically unanimous in terms of wanting TFFO to go ahead, and pointing out its great potential with even modest support, and willingness to accept a lower prize pool on a temporary basis )assuming small tweaks can be made during the season, and the game is given a better profile by the Telegraph.) I am in the dark as to what the counter-view to this actually is. TFFO is an Aston Martin which needs a set of new tyres and a presence in the showroom, and its up against Audis and Fords (err...no offence to those companies, and maybe the analogy isn't the best, but you know what I mean!)

[Surprised]

TFFO was a wonderful game but banning overseas entrants was the death knell.

[Patrician]

Just to add another voice in favour of this great game, it really is the best product on the market in my opinion - I have played for many years now, tried other games but this is the only one that really sucks me in.

It is the lack of advertising and priority you give this game in my opinion that has resulted in the declining numbers, as many have suggested. What is puzzling to me, is that from an online commercial perspective I would have expected you to favor a game that has its players spending more "eyeball time" on your website. I don't think any other game has the players spending more time on the game website than this one. I can't remember if you use the game as a way of selling advertising space or do you only make money from game entries? OFL do in a non-intrusive way. Maybe if you created a new revenue stream from the games you could make a case for increasing prize money and/or reducing entry cost and justifying a higher profile for the game launch?

You could learn a lot from researching the OFL model - the game is not as good, but the interface is a lot better for a similar squad based concept and I bet they make more money from running the game, despite many of their players playing the free version without prize money.

[Northernmonkey]

To go from the other TFFootball thread back in May to where we're at now is really disappointing. I'm not going to repeat what's been said, but there was plenty of decent feedback back then and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I have no faith that a seasons break will mean the game will ever come back, I'd fully expect to be in this same position next season. Please just release the game, you can still do your 'thinking' and development for 2011. If it's released now it's still a vast improvement on last season and a big step in the right direction. I don't care if it's £5 or £10 a pop and I don't really care if the top prize is only 50p just release the bloomin' game!

[Oddsman]

I have no faith that a seasons break will mean the game will ever come back, I'd fully expect to be in this same position next season. Please just release the game, you can still do your 'thinking' and development for 2011. If it's released now it's still a vast improvement on last season and a big step in the right direction.

I will echo Northernmonkey's comments.

TFFootball - have you noticed how many people have said this is their favourite game. Don't underestimate that statement. People aren't saying that for the sake of this 'TFFO survival thread' it just happens to be true. On the otherhand, as the oldest game, although many will have a soft spot for TFF - very few, who play more than one or two different fantasy footie games each season, are likely to regard TFF in such high esteem.

We can see from the feedback on FISO that TFFO has a strong fanbase. We also personally feel that a squad game has a place in our fantasy games 'portfolio'

If the above statement from your opening post is true then, I suggest, this decision is a no brainer - launch last year's website asap with a £10k first prize.

TFFootball - with all the other games on the verge of release - it's now time for your decision.

[Biscuitman]

"from an online commercial perspective I would have expected you to favor a game that has its players spending more "eyeball time" on your website. I don't think any other game has the players spending more time on the game website than this one"

A good point, Patrician.

[giblet]

I think that the suggestion of not running the TFFO competition this season but maybe re-launching it next year could well rebound on the Telegraph. Maybe they anticipate that without TFFO potential entrants will instead plough their intended entry money into purchasing more teams for the TFF game. Personally I will be keen to enter a squad game of some kind this coming season and if the TFFO one sadly doesn't run then I shall pool my intended resources for that game into the OFL one instead and should I actually enjoy that to any degree then I may well stay with that rather than return to a resurrected TFFO game. If they really do have any serious thoughts at all with running TFFO the Telegraph should do so for this coming season and so ensure holding onto the obvious support they have for this game and then use the channels of their own newspaper to advertise for extra entries. Why are they so reluctant to advertise in this way?

It's almost as though certain factions of the Telegraph are opposed full stop to the running of the TFFO competition alongside the TFF one and are digging their heels in thus the continued delay with the final decision being made. Back in May their comments didn't seem to suggest there would be any doubt of there being a 2010-2011 TFFO competition so why the about-turn now? Perhaps they didn't make the money they expected from running the World Cup competition and this has come into their thinking about ditching the TFFO game. Certainly their statement placing the TFFO competition in doubt coincided almost with the completion of the World Cup.

Come on Tele - you may not have made as much from TFFO last season as you would have hoped but make some profit you undoubtedly did from those of us prepared to support you so reward the considerable loyalty that must be so obvious to you by re-launching TFFO without any further pussyfooting about for the 2010-2011 season!!!

[Mystery]

How about a perspective from a non-TFFO player.

I've read over the past few seasons many very appreciative posts over TFFO and have been intrigued enough to have a glance at the website and see what's involved.

Then I saw what's involved decided it was too costly and too high maintenance and I can't help thinking this would be the common view.

So I think everyone here needs to understand that this is going to be a business decision. Does the Telegraph run TFFO as a loss leader in the hope they'll pull more entries into the main TFF game which presumably runs at a far better profit margin? Or tweak TFFO so it is at least breaking even. Or just can it as the resulting loss on TFF numbers is (sorry to say it) going to be relatively insigificant.

Put it another way - if you were running a business and you had two similar products - one doing well with potential to grow and the other being relatively poorly taken up. Do you invest in the weak product in the hope it grows and becomes strong again - or do you plough your budget into the strong game.

The 4 teams for £10 TFF offer probably gives you an idea of the answer......

[AkNotSpur]

Put it another way - if you were running a business and you had two similar products - one doing well with potential to grow and the other being relatively poorly taken up. Do you invest in the weak product in the hope it grows and becomes strong again - or do you plough your budget into the strong game.

The point to recognise is that the Telegraph are no longer investing in any fantasy football game - they are simply attempting to grab as much revenue for as little outlay as possible, hence the fact that they are offering the absoutely pathetic prize pool of 100k for TFF while hoping to scoop up 250,000 team entry fees.

TFFO is a brilliant game, but the Telegraph have made a series of poor decisions over the past 5 years that have effectively killed it. So it's more a case of running down a business.

[Biscuitman]

Mystery raises some counter-points.

Yes, it is a relatively high maintenance game. Many people actually like this aspect, and see it as a more challenging and satisfying game, and it means regular visits to the site which could be advantageous to the Tele.
It does not need to be a loss leader (and we don't even know if it is) - the idea of temporarily lowered prizes has been understood as a possible way forward. The up-front programming costs were very largely incurred a year ago. Now is the time to leverage the volume off that infrastructure base. Incremental programming costs can not be high, and maintenance costs ditto given that the main database etc is common to TFF.
TFF and TFFO are complementary, not in competition. TFF is probably nearer its natural numbers in terms of players; TFFO is running at a fraction of what it might be and has historically been, hence the greater business opportunity is there. It is an under-utilised, high quality asset which most businessmen see as a positive if they own one.