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Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

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Spain best ever?

Poll ended at 21 Aug 2012, 09:10

Yes
13
52%
No
12
48%
 
Total votes: 25

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Zoolander
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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

trampie wrote:
em9999 wrote:They may not have the skill of a pele or the like

but there aint been many finer players than Xavi and Iniesta to ever grace the game...the Spain team is quality from 1 to 11 with perhaps only the right back slot being average...

This Spainish team could beat anyone from past or present
Platini and Zidane were miles better individual midfield footballers than Xavi and Iniesta.
In your opinion :wink:


You've trotted out the old 'football was better in my day' line without any statistical proof so i for one will stick by the fact that professional footballers are fitter, stronger and better prepared tactically and mentally now than they were in 1970.

Again, all 16 teams in this years Euros would beat the Brazil team from 1970.

Spain are the greatest international team of all time but in another 40 years there will be fitter, stronger players again who will undoubtedly take their crown.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Zoolander wrote:
trampie wrote:
em9999 wrote:They may not have the skill of a pele or the like

but there aint been many finer players than Xavi and Iniesta to ever grace the game...the Spain team is quality from 1 to 11 with perhaps only the right back slot being average...

This Spainish team could beat anyone from past or present
Platini and Zidane were miles better individual midfield footballers than Xavi and Iniesta.
In your opinion :wink:


You've trotted out the old 'football was better in my day' line without any statistical proof so i for one will stick by the fact that professional footballers are fitter, stronger and better prepared tactically and mentally now than they were in 1970.

Again, all 16 teams in this years Euros would beat the Brazil team from 1970.

Spain are the greatest international team of all time but in another 40 years there will be fitter, stronger players again who will undoubtedly take their crown.
Oh no, Zidane is a modern footballer only recently retired and i think he was better than any of the current Spanish players, as regards the modern footballer/team is always better than previous footballers/teams i don't subscribe to that, if that is the case the greatest team ever will always be the current champions so Spain are one match/tournie away from being also rans.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

France played through Zidane, but Spain are better than that as they don't rely on one player to set their tempo, creativity etc. Silva is almost a bit-part player :shock:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Spain are a team, they could not play through Xavi or Iniesta like other teams played through Zidane and Platini because Xavi and Iniesta are not individual world beaters like Zidane and Platini were.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

trampie wrote:Spain are a team, they could not play through Xavi or Iniesta like other teams played through Zidane and Platini because Xavi and Iniesta are not individual world beaters like Zidane and Platini were.
The thread is called 'are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?' :wink:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

And how do we know Xavi and Iniesta aren't individually that good? Isn't it about getting the best of the whole team, not the sum of the parts?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Zoolander wrote:
trampie wrote:Spain are a team, they could not play through Xavi or Iniesta like other teams played through Zidane and Platini because Xavi and Iniesta are not individual world beaters like Zidane and Platini were.
The thread is called 'are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?' :wink:
Yes i know my first post on this thread was to put a list up of 4 teams that in my view were better P4P than Spain.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by AkNotSpur »

Zoolander wrote:Again, all 16 teams in this years Euros would beat the Brazil team from 1970.
The current England side, playing in hot and humid conditions and sitting back in defence, would not stand a chance against the 1970 Brazil team. They couldn't prevent an old-fashioned craftsman like Pirlo from dominating game, so how would they fare against 5 of the greatest attacking players of all time.

OK, so the average footballer is fitter and some are faster (although the England team is hardly full of greyhounds - that's one of the reasons why they sit back so deeply) - but Pele, to take the leading example, was also a fantastic athlete. Look at the height of some of his leaps (e.g. headed goal in 70 final from a standing start and Banks' miracle slave) - I doubt if ANY present day player would have a better (chalk mark to chalk mark) standing jump.

Football is also still (in the main part) pre-dominantly a game of skill and not just speed and stamina - otherwise the European leagues would be filled with Jamaicans and Kenyans. Being able to control a ball instantly and kick it accurately - with both feet - is still a pre-requisite and I don't see any advances in that area. If Glenn Hoddle went back to the England camp he'd still be the only person who could do keep-ups, with both feet, when jogging backwards.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

AkNotSpur wrote:
Zoolander wrote:Again, all 16 teams in this years Euros would beat the Brazil team from 1970.
The current England side, playing in hot and humid conditions and sitting back in defence, would not stand a chance against the 1970 Brazil team. They couldn't prevent an old-fashioned craftsman like Pirlo from dominating game, so how would they fare against 5 of the greatest attacking players of all time.

OK, so the average footballer is fitter and some are faster (although the England team is hardly full of greyhounds - that's one of the reasons why they sit back so deeply) - but Pele, to take the leading example, was also a fantastic athlete. Look at the height of some of his leaps (e.g. headed goal in 70 final from a standing start and Banks' miracle slave) - I doubt if ANY present day player would have a better (chalk mark to chalk mark) standing jump.

Football is also still (in the main part) pre-dominantly a game of skill and not just speed and stamina - otherwise the European leagues would be filled with Jamaicans and Kenyans. Being able to control a ball instantly and kick it accurately - with both feet - is still a pre-requisite and I don't see any advances in that area. If Glenn Hoddle went back to the England camp he'd still be the only person who could do keep-ups, with both feet, when jogging backwards.
We are on the same wavelength AK, i was going to use Hoddle alongside Platini and Zidane as a player to put alongside Iniesta and Xavi because Hoddle was English and highly talented, in the end i only choose to mention Platini and Zidane because of the honours that they won as well as being better individual players than the Spaniards imo, Hoddle didnt have the trophies but he had the ability, Hoddle should have won a 100 odd caps not 50 odd, England wanted him to fit into the team when they should have been building a team around him, Xavi and Iniesta hitting 30 or 40 yard passes straight into the path of a team mate several times a game like Hoddle used to do, i dont think so, their strength is 5 yard passes.

The acid test for Spain is the next world cup in South America.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

Xaviesta might be good at "5 yard passes" but they have the killer ball in their locker as well, along with Iniesta's close control and ability to create space. They might not (quite) be Zidane but they're a lot more than just cogs in a machine. It says a lot that they have won pretty much everything there is to win, with and without Messi.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

forestfan wrote:Xaviesta might be good at "5 yard passes" but they have the killer ball in their locker as well, along with Iniesta's close control and ability to create space. They might not (quite) be Zidane but they're a lot more than just cogs in a machine. It says a lot that they have won pretty much everything there is to win, with and without Messi.
I agree they do have the killer ball and are great players in a great team, i just dont think they are the greatest players or the greatest team, i think Iniesta is a far better player than Xavi, the reason they are winning everything is their system as much as anything, Spain are winning with it, Barca are winning with it and over here little Swansea City have come from the bottom of the bottom division to finish 11th in the Premier league with some players that were playing in the bottom tiers of the English leagues out footballing some of the best teams in the Premier league, Leon Britton who played fourth division football with the Swans was the worlds most accurate passer of a football in 2012 when playing in the Premier league for Swansea City, Xavi with Barca was second.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

Iniesta is the more eye-catching player and increasingly stands out as the spark of genius. Xavi on the other hand just holds everything together and rarely puts a foot wrong, a few years ago he was perhaps dismissed as a water carrier but his importance has since been recognised.

For Messi to be regarded as the best player ever he has to prove he can still do great things without that supply line.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Surprised »

I think it was probably easier for good teams to win in the 70's as all teams played to win. Now many teams play where the fear of losing surpasses the desire to win.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

I thought 3pts for a win was supposed to stop teams playing for draws..........

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by bluenosey »

In my world it will always be Brazil 82. Socrates, Zico, Junior, Falcao, Zico and Eder. When flair wore flares. They were simply football's equivalent to liquid gold.

I can see why people say Brazil 70. In fact, you can go from Brazil '58 through to '70. Pele being the common denominator but the likes of Garrincha, Jairzinho and Rivelino too.

Trampie mentions Hungary 1954. The magnificent Magyars. They should have won the 54 World Cup. Bit like Brazil in 82. Best team doesn't always win, however.

Spain are good without doubt. Top 10 of all time. Difficult to put them with the above three but another World Cup win and yes, they would be pushing them close.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

I suggest that you watch their second group phase games (Italy and Argentina), and there were reasons why Maradonna got sent off for the straight foot to a Brazilians knackers (I think) :wink:

Throw in the Spain vs Yugoslavia game and you have my favourite WC - this game is mentioned mainly due to the mighty Dragan's second goal, which is as close to sex on a football pitch I have seen, and I was 15 at the time :lol:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

bluenosey wrote:Trampie mentions Hungary 1954. The magnificent Magyars. They should have won the 54 World Cup. Bit like Brazil in 82. Best team doesn't always win, however.

Spain are good without doubt. Top 10 of all time. Difficult to put them with the above three but another World Cup win and yes, they would be pushing them close.
Winning something doesn't automatically make a team great, but I don't think a team can be considered great if they don't win anything.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by AkNotSpur »

Surprised wrote:I think it was probably easier for good teams to win in the 70's as all teams played to win. Now many teams play where the fear of losing surpasses the desire to win.
Point of information - Italian teams set out, primarily, not to lose from the 60s onwards. Their national team was incredibly negative in the group stages of the 1970 World Cup (goal difference of 1-0) and Inter Milan, under Herrara, pioneered modern defensive tactics.

England were also criticised as being a negative team and Ramsey certainly made them very hard to beat. On the domestic front, anyone who watched their team host Leeds United in the 1960s received a cruel introduction to the philosophy of "holding on to what we've got" - at all costs.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

The trouble was that the Scottish Leeds players took this lesson to heart when playing Zaire :lol: :?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

forestfan wrote:
bluenosey wrote:Trampie mentions Hungary 1954. The magnificent Magyars. They should have won the 54 World Cup. Bit like Brazil in 82. Best team doesn't always win, however.

Spain are good without doubt. Top 10 of all time. Difficult to put them with the above three but another World Cup win and yes, they would be pushing them close.
Winning something doesn't automatically make a team great, but I don't think a team can be considered great if they don't win anything.
Hungary won the Olympics in 1952, Puskas scored in the final, Hungary lost controversially in the world cup final in 1954 against West Germany, the game was known as the 'Miracle of Berne', the Hungarians were unbeaten for 32 consecutive games [is it still a record ?], Hungary hammered Germany 8-3 in the group stage and then lost 2-3 in the final, German goals that should have been disallowed were allowed, Hungarian goals that should have been allowed were disallowed, the rain was a leveller and of course even German documentaries reckon that the German team was doping, the accusation is they were injecting the players at half-time.
That Hungarian team was fantastic and not many people would say otherwise because of one unlucky and controversial loss.

The Brazilian team in 82 was not as good as the Hungarians of the early 50's, the Hungarians were winners.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

This WC will be the acid test for Spain can they do it in South America ?, it will be quite some achievement if they can.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Giggs11 »

Agreed,it`s not like the last World Cup or two Euro`s were really tests :lol:

Same old Spain :roll:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Maldini »

They've already won it on a foreign continent, haven't they? :?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Giggs11 wrote:Agreed,it`s not like the last World Cup or two Euro`s were really tests :lol:

Same old Spain :roll:
No the South Americans aren't in the Euro's and the last WC was in Africa, this one is in South America.
The South Americans have always won when its been held in South America or even the America's come to that.

1930 - Uruguay won in Uruguay
1950 - Uruguay won in Brazil
1962 - Brazil won in Chile
1970 - Brazil won in Mexico
1978 - Argentina won in Argentina
1986 - Argentina won in Mexico
1994 - Brazil won in the USA

The 4 times its been held in South America and obviously won by the South Americans, 2 of those 4 finals have even had all South American finalists.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Giggs11 »

trampie wrote:
Giggs11 wrote:Agreed,it`s not like the last World Cup or two Euro`s were really tests :lol:

Same old Spain :roll:
No the South Americans aren't in the Euro's and the last WC was in Africa, this one is in South America.
The South Americans have always won when its been held in South America or even the America's come to that.

1930 - Uruguay won in Uruguay
1950 - Uruguay won in Brazil
1962 - Brazil won in Chile
1970 - Brazil won in Mexico
1978 - Argentina won in Argentina
1986 - Argentina won in Mexico
1994 - Brazil won in the USA

The 4 times its been held in South America and obviously won by the South Americans, 2 of those 4 finals have even had all South American finalists.

So the two Euro`s and the last World Cup were insignificant were they. Same old Mccains :roll:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Giggs11 wrote:
trampie wrote:
Giggs11 wrote:Agreed,it`s not like the last World Cup or two Euro`s were really tests :lol:

Same old Spain :roll:
No the South Americans aren't in the Euro's and the last WC was in Africa, this one is in South America.
The South Americans have always won when its been held in South America or even the America's come to that.

1930 - Uruguay won in Uruguay
1950 - Uruguay won in Brazil
1962 - Brazil won in Chile
1970 - Brazil won in Mexico
1978 - Argentina won in Argentina
1986 - Argentina won in Mexico
1994 - Brazil won in the USA

The 4 times its been held in South America and obviously won by the South Americans, 2 of those 4 finals have even had all South American finalists.

So the two Euro`s and the last World Cup were insignificant were they. Same old Mccains :roll:
Not at all, fantastic achievements by Spain, but for Spain to win a WC in South America would be a better achievement than winning either Euro's or the WC in South Africa.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Giggs11 »

Winning a World Cup anywhere is a great achievement and also dominating a continent for 6 years is an even better accomplishment imo.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by trampie »

Giggs11 wrote:Winning a World Cup anywhere is a great achievement and also dominating a continent for 6 years is an even better accomplishment imo.
Yes a great achievement but winning a South American world cup would top the other 3 wins.

Do you think Spain will lift the WC in Brazil ?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by em9999 »

Spain aint got a cat in hells chance of winning this world cup


Brazil all the way

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Giggs11 »

trampie wrote:
Giggs11 wrote:Winning a World Cup anywhere is a great achievement and also dominating a continent for 6 years is an even better accomplishment imo.
Yes a great achievement but winning a South American world cup would top the other 3 wins.

Do you think Spain will lift the WC in Brazil ?

Who knows but they have to be amongst a select few who have a realistic chance.
It`s out of Spain Brazil Argentina and Germany for me.

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