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Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

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Spain best ever?

Poll ended at 21 Aug 2012, 09:10

Yes
13
52%
No
12
48%
 
Total votes: 25

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murf
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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by murf »

bigsheff wrote:
blahblah wrote:It seems to me that they have reduced\elevated the XI man game to 5-a-side.
They've just made the game much more simple.
....or over-complicated it.

Why get it straight to the big man up front with a single hoof when you can get it forward with 237 intricate 1-yard passes (then realise there is no target man to pass to!)

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Tricky Tree »

Bert. wrote:
Tricky Tree wrote:
Bert. wrote:
Tricky Tree wrote:jeez, here you are again :roll: Try watching Forest
How's Chris Read doing these days? ;)
Very well thanks, 5th highest ranked batsman for those who have played 5 or more games. (Div 1)

Highest average of any wickie

Basically, high quality as always
And still can't get in the England side.
It would be a backwards step, Prior has done a fine job and deserves his place.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

Comfortably the best international side I've seen in my lifetime and well worth a punt at 11/2 to win next World Cup. They won't lose many, if any of this squad, have David Villa to come back and the likes of Llorente, Mata, Fabregas, Javier Martinez, Alba etc etc will only get better. :shock:

As for the negativity towards Spain, it is hardly their fault that the opposition aren't good enough to get the ball back off them.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by bigsheff »

murf wrote:
bigsheff wrote:
blahblah wrote:It seems to me that they have reduced\elevated the XI man game to 5-a-side.
They've just made the game much more simple.
....or over-complicated it.

Why get it straight to the big man up front with a single hoof when you can get it forward with 237 intricate 1-yard passes (then realise there is no target man to pass to!)
why have a man when the target only needs to be a space?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

Indeed, and they are closer to the ball if they do lose it, unlike the hoofball marchants...

It will be interesting to see if they can win it in SA, and be the first European side to do so?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by mikeg13 »

Zoolander wrote:

As for the negativity towards Spain, it is hardly their fault that the opposition aren't good enough to get the ball back off them.
Thats true, but the downside for game is there is a way to beat it, as Cfc showed, while really enjoyed that game, would not like it to be the norm.

They play in triangles, if that ball bypass's the third player in the triangle more times than not system falls apart, other teams will adapt to play them. Real in taking title from Barca (who it could be argued have taken it up a notch) showed its not infallible, maybe you are right they will get better and add what to me is at mo missing, in honesty hope you are right as it will be something to see.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

I thought the first 45 mins against Portugal was the best I have seen for yonks.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by mikeg13 »

blahblah wrote:I thought the first 45 mins against Portugal was the best I have seen for yonks.
Good game but if Ref had have done what he should and played advantage, every chance Nani scores and Spain could have been out.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Groomyd »

mikeg13 wrote: Thats true, but the downside for game is there is a way to beat it, as Cfc showed,
Chelsea's win didn't show that though did it?

If barca hadn't made chances it would have done - but barca missed 4 or 5 sitters, hit the woodwork 3 times and missed a penalty over the two legs.

And just a bit OPTA tactic info: in 2008 Spain averaged 27 passes per shot at goal, in this year's championships they averageg over 50 passes per shot.

Arsene knows :wink:

Spain do keep it simple, when they have the ball they play the way they are facing and pass it short and simple - each pass is simple, there are few Hollywood balls but the sum is more than it's parts - because they all make themselves available and all have the technical ability to receive the ball when marked and pass it off without bing takled.

When they lose it they press high up the pitch and crucially they press as one - this measn they get the ball straight back as the player in possession will play a percentage long ball which is mopped up by highly mobile defenders.

And so it starts again.

Never compromise possession - when you lose it, get it back.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by blahblah »

mikeg13 wrote:
blahblah wrote:I thought the first 45 mins against Portugal was the best I have seen for yonks.
Good game but if Ref had have done what he should and played advantage, every chance Nani scores and Spain could have been out.
Well 0-1 down, and an even more interesting game....

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by mikeg13 »

Groomyd wrote: If barca hadn't made chances it would have done - but barca missed 4 or 5 sitters, hit the woodwork 3 times and missed a penalty over the two legs.
Same thing could be said about Spain in many games :wink: would same be said about "Best team ever" me dont think so. If they do start getting more end product then its a no brainer, don't get me wrong love to see passing game, but until rules are changed its putting it between the white bits than wins games, possesion of cause important but will never be more important than taking a single chance if game ends 1-0 :D

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Tricky Tree »

Groomyd wrote:And just a bit OPTA tactic info: in 2008 Spain averaged 27 passes per shot at goal, in this year's championships they averageg over 50 passes per shot.

Arsene knows :wink:
I know you are not a genious so I will spell this one out.

In 2008 Spain were not Euro and World champions so teams did not yet set out to stifle them, hence they played through teams far easier.

Simple enough :wink:

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

blahblah wrote:
mikeg13 wrote:
blahblah wrote:I thought the first 45 mins against Portugal was the best I have seen for yonks.
Good game but if Ref had have done what he should and played advantage, every chance Nani scores and Spain could have been out.
Well 0-1 down, and an even more interesting game....
I agree, Spain played in first gear for large chunks of the tournament and going behind would've seen them up their game and made for an even better spectacle.

I suspect there's more to come from this lot yet and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Rick »

Tacalabala wrote:Yep, big statement, but the facts speak for themselves:
  • First team to win three successive tournaments - Euro 2008, WC 2010, Euro 2012 I don't really see how Brazil, Argentina etc could actually do that.
  • First team to defend the European Championships
  • Achieved the biggest winning margin in a major tournament final - 4-0 Italy
  • Haven't lost a knockout game at an international tournament since WC 2006 (vs France)
  • Have arguably perfected the tiki-taka style
  • The core of the side - Xavi, Iniesta, Torres, Puyol, Pique - are multiple Champions League winners
Personally, I think their toughest challenge is yet to come - defend the WC in Brazil's backyard and the argument ends...
Brazil of 1970 for me.

Although I have heard a lot of the 58/62 teams which perhaps were even better. The only South American team to ever win the WC in Europe, also featured a younger Pele, by the time 1970 came along he was still brilliant but past his best.

Spain actually remind me of the Brazil team of 94, they had the same rapid accurate short passing game, but then had Romario at the end of it. But they were criticised for not winning it in the Braziliant fashion of previous teams.

Even if they become the first European team to win a World Cup in South America I still won't put them above those Brazilian teams. Not unless they improve a lot. Those Brazilian teams didn't need penalties to beat anyone.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by foxinthebox2001 »

A shame we will never know how Spain's (or Barcelona's) ticca ticca brand of football would have stood up against the pragmatic, no nonsense Leeds team of the seventies containing Johnny Giles, Norman Hunter, big Jack, and wee Billy Bremner.
Particularly in those days when you had to almost physically assault an opponent before you earned a caution.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Jack72 »

Yes

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Groomyd »

Tricky Tree wrote:
Groomyd wrote:And just a bit OPTA tactic info: in 2008 Spain averaged 27 passes per shot at goal, in this year's championships they averageg over 50 passes per shot.

Arsene knows :wink:
I know you are not a genious so I will spell this one out.

In 2008 Spain were not Euro and World champions so teams did not yet set out to stifle them, hence they played through teams far easier.

Simple enough :wink:
That's one possible explanation Tricky.

But il don't think that that is the case.

But it also reflects the way they played I this competition - more sideways and slower build up. That is why many started (in my view incorrectly) to say they were boring.

Sides didn't try to stifle them in the competition, far from it, Italy and Croatia in the group stages had a real go and only Ireland sat back - and were outclassed. The portugal game was also end to end.

Which sides do you think tried to stifle Spain? :?

In the final they upped the tempo and played more quickly and more directly, just as they have done since 2008.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Groomyd »

mikeg13 wrote:
Groomyd wrote: If barca hadn't made chances it would have done - but barca missed 4 or 5 sitters, hit the woodwork 3 times and missed a penalty over the two legs.
Same thing could be said about Spain in many games :wink: would same be said about "Best team ever" me dont think so. If they do start getting more end product then its a no brainer, don't get me wrong love to see passing game, but until rules are changed its putting it between the white bits than wins games, possesion of cause important but will never be more important than taking a single chance if game ends 1-0 :D
In a cup game of course - which is why ronny radford is a hero - but hereford aren't better than leeds.

And David Villa is there to come back.





And David Villa is coming back.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zimmerman »

Spain are a victim of their own success;

Because they are that good and make it all seem so simple, people are starting to dismiss what they are doing.

Some (first three) of the goals last night were an absolute joy to witness.
I feel priveleged to be around to watch.

They all have so much ability (and confidence in one another), it's superb.

In Iniesta they have an absolute genius. He's forever throwing little tricks in, it's not all just simple passes. Besides, for me, that is part of the beauty anyway. Might look simple, but there's a reason not everyone is doing it. It's the fact they've mastered it is the reason it 'looks' so simple.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

Zimmerman wrote:In Iniesta they have an absolute genius. He's forever throwing little tricks in, it's not all just simple passes. Besides, for me, that is part of the beauty anyway. Might look simple, but there's a reason not everyone is doing it. It's the fact they've mastered it is the reason it 'looks' so simple.
I've thought for a while now his close control is Zidane-like, guess the Frenchman was a more complete player but ZZ himself has made the comparison.

Some have said the Spanish side is not based on individual stars, but a philosophy with interchangeable parts. But Iniesta is the spark of genius and Xavi the metronomic heartbeat of the side with the defence-splitting pass to go with it. Without those two I think they would be a good team but not a great one. Does Xavi have another big tournament in him, especially in the heat of Brazil?

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by stevejtr »

they are chock full of world class midfielders. So many that they insist on sacrificing a striker to play an extra one.

They are a great side; certainly the best national side since 1970 IMO (I do just about remember that Brazil side).

Not sure they're the best but as Cloughie would say they could be in the top one...

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by AkNotSpur »

Almost impossible to compare teams from 1970 and 2012 - but it's probably fair to say that Spain 2012 have the stronger keeper and defence and Brazil 1970 the superior forward line.

In terms of entertainment there can be no comparison - because that Brazil side wrote the definitive book on attacking football and in Jairzinho, Gerson, Tostao, Pele and Rivelino had 5 genuine world class players going forward (not to mention midfielder Clodoaldo plus a devastating attacking full back in Carlos Alberto). They were the Beautiful Team - the predicate on which football become known as the Beautiful Game.

Unfortunately little, or nothing, was seen of that team in Europe. Holland's 'total football' team certainly light up the 70s, and are the best team that I've ever seen in the flesh, but lack of trophies counts against them. Germany from 71 to 74 were dominant (although a pity that Netzer was ditched so quickly) and I really rated Italy from 78 to 82 (best team in the Argentina World Cup and might have won the 80 Euros if Rossi had been available). Then France in 84 and from 98 to 2000...now Spain have become the next outstanding European side.
Last edited by AkNotSpur on 03 Jul 2012, 08:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by bigsheff »

It's impossible to judge, true, but it's not unfair to say that the overall standard of opposition is now much higher in this era that Spain are dominating, there arent many shit teams nowadays and Spain are sweeping aside all before them.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

I'm not old enough to remember the Holland "Total Football" side of the 70s, but other than in the trophy column they sound like the closest historical parallel? A fluid formation with conventional ideas of positions being broken down to some extent, and being known for a system as much as for the individual stars.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by AkNotSpur »

bigsheff wrote:It's impossible to judge, true, but it's not unfair to say that the overall standard of opposition is now much higher in this era that Spain are dominating, there arent many shit teams nowadays and Spain are sweeping aside all before them.
Completely disagree. IMHO the overall standard of international football is at an all-time low; Spain are the shining lights in a sea of mediocrity.
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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Rick »

I'll second that. The international standards at the moment are at an all time low imo.

I think you will find that the only people who think this team is better than Brazil 1970 are people who are not old enough to have witnessed that tournament. I think that says it all.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by forestfan »

There may not be a lot of great international teams now but there are very few poor ones that make major tournaments. Teams are better organised and set themselves up to not lose, that's why it's much harder to dominate tournaments as the likes of Pele and Maradona did when the standard of defending was much lower on the whole.

There's a lot more randomness, more groups going down to the wire and knockout games decided by a single goal or on penalties. So winning three back to back tournaments is if anything even more remarkable in this era.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

Rick wrote:I'll second that. The international standards at the moment are at an all time low imo.

I think you will find that the only people who think this team is better than Brazil 1970 are people who are not old enough to have witnessed that tournament. I think that says it all.
And people that think the Brazil team of 1970's are better than the current Spain team, are perhaps being overly nostalgic?

How many sports have declined in the last 42 years?

I was born in 1971 and no sport I've witnessed was better in the 70's than it is now. More entertaining, perhaps. Better, no.
Professionalism, sports science etc means that every team at this years European Championship would beat that Brazil team.

Their fitness and organisation would be too much for them.

Brazil 1970 might be your generations favourite team of all time but Spain are the best.

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Groomyd »

Stoke would have beaten the brazilians of 1970 (maybe not but you get my point)

But you can't compare eras by the same criteria - fitness and sports science needs to be largely ignored or we end up concluding that the current sides and sportsmen are the best ever

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Re: Are this Spanish team the greatest of all time?

Post by Zoolander »

Groomyd wrote:Stoke would have beaten the brazilians of 1970 (maybe not but you get my point)

But you can't compare eras by the same criteria - fitness and sports science needs to be largely ignored or we end up concluding that the current sides and sportsmen are the best ever
I understand what you're saying but the definition of 'best' is what it is.

Sports men and women are improving year on year. Often to the detriment of the entertainment aspect but nonetheless they are better.

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