Van Gaal

[Maldini]

It's nothing like saying Huntelaar should start ahead of RVP because RVP is quite obviously a far superior player.

All the evidence I've seen suggests that Cillesen is no better than either Vorm or Krul.

He's definitely not superior to the point that you should sacrifice one of your substitutes to keep him in your team.



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[RamR]

It is definitely possible that Van Gaal, though making a ballsy move to win against Costa Rica, wasn't thinking far enough ahead and may have made one or possibly two mistakes. By the way Bill, don't take my opinion as simply being due to the fact that I am not a fan of Man U. Tarring with that brush everyone who has a contrary view to yours would be extremely insulting.

The first case where Van Gaal may have erred is in man management. Given the way the Argentina match unfolded with Cillessen facing the penalties, it is in the very least possible, that what happened against Costa Rica had a negative impact on Cillessen's performance in the penalties. Furthermore, it may well plague the young keeper for the rest of his career. I wonder if Van Gaal had been up front with Cillessen at the beginning of the Costa Rica match and pointed out that if it happened it would just be a matter of playing the odds and not a knock against him if things would have been different.

The second place he may have erred is in determining when and how to use the strategy. It stands to reason that since the Costa Rica match was always far more likely to end favourably for the Dutch during open play it would have been much more imperative to plan for the implementation of the strategy vs Argentina. So, if it was the plan from the start against Costa Rica to save a substitution to get Krul in, and given that it worked the first time, it is astounding that he didn't manage to get it done against Argentina. If the strategy was that integral vs Costa Rica one would think that it would have been even more important vs Argentina.

[Giggs11]

No one seems to be taking into consideration the psychological impact bringing on a substitute keeper had on Costa Rica. I'm almost certain that given any option, LVG would have replicated that substitution in the semi final. Van Persie's fitness and the subsequent way the game played out made that impossible ...

[RamR]

No one seems to be taking into consideration the psychological impact bringing on a substitute keeper had on Costa Rica. I'm almost certain that given any option, LVG would have replicated that substitution in the semi final. Van Persie's fitness and the subsequent way the game played out made that impossible ...

Well, to begin with he could have decided not to start two players who were unlikely to get through a full 120 minutes.

[Giggs11]

Yeah, leaving one of your best players out, just in case, is always a viable tactic

[RamR]

Well, first of all even the best players in the world can be inefficient when they have stomach problems as Van Persie appeared to be from his performance and the fact he wasn't able to make it a further 25 minutes. Secondly, I was more referring to playing de Jong who only lasted 62 minutes.

[Pouzar99]

I am not a Man U supporter or hater, but I think it is obvious that Van Gaal has done an excellent job of managing the Dutch squad. It was obvious that he was dealing with a very tired bunch in the SF and he knew they needed the quality of RVP, even if he wasn't 100%, and De Jong did an excellent job in shutting down Messi while he was on the pitch. I do not see Man U as a title threat this season, as they simply don't have the horses, but hiring Van Gaal was a smart move, which should help turn them in the right direction.

[Giggs11]

Only bias or a lack of much football knowledge would give you a different opinion for me. I also happen to believe that one poor season for a fragmented squad is being given too much weight, especially when you consider that the previous seasons painted a much different picture. We shall soon see exactly what LVG can get out of this squad of players...

[trampie]

Van Gaal tactical genius , not in this world cup he wasn't.

Against Mexico it wasn't a case of good subs but a case of picking the wrong team in the first place and he got very [very] lucky - 2 goals at the end of 90 minutes, one a very dubious penalty.

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round.

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round.

LVG team managed 0 goals in 240 minutes of football in their quarter final and semi final matches [120 mins of those was against Costa Rica], with Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie in the starting lineup and with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay available to him, yet the tactical genius that some say Van Gaal is could not get that team with all those stellar forwards to score a single goal in all that time.

[liquidfootball2]

You said all this tripe yesterday, do you think repetition makes your reasoning any better?

[Darbyand]

And was the second lfc fan to swerve the bet issue.

[Giggs11]

Van Gaal tactical genius , not in this world cup he wasn't.

Against Mexico it wasn't a case of good subs but a case of picking the wrong team in the first place and he got very [very] lucky - 2 goals at the end of 90 minutes, one a very dubious penalty.

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round.

Little Costa Rica who beat Italy,Uruguay,Greece and drawing with England so went into the match unbeaten
And in the semi Cilessen keeps a clean sheet against Argentina so his confidence was really shot

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round.

LVG team managed 0 goals in 240 minutes of football in their quarter final and semi final matches [120 mins of those was against Costa Rica], with Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie in the starting lineup and with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay available to him, yet the tactical genius that some say Van Gaal is could not get that team with all those stellar forwards to score a single goal in all that time.

As others say you just talk utter tripe.

[Red Eye]

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round.

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round.

So on the one hand it was a mistake for Van Gaal to not use all his subs then take off his goalie for the shootout, and on the other hand it was a mistake for Van Gaal to use all his subs and not take off his goalie for the shootout?

[trampie]

Van Gaal tactical genius , not in this world cup he wasn't.

Against Mexico it wasn't a case of good subs but a case of picking the wrong team in the first place and he got very [very] lucky - 2 goals at the end of 90 minutes, one a very dubious penalty.

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round.

Little Costa Rica who beat Italy,Uruguay,Greece and drawing with England so went into the match unbeaten
And in the semi Cilessen keeps a clean sheet against Argentina so his confidence was really shot

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round.

LVG team managed 0 goals in 240 minutes of football in their quarter final and semi final matches [120 mins of those was against Costa Rica], with Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie in the starting lineup and with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay available to him, yet the tactical genius that some say Van Gaal is could not get that team with all those stellar forwards to score a single goal in all that time.

As others say you just talk utter tripe.

They are all poor sides:-
Italy had not won an international in 7 attempts before the world cup including a home draw against Luxembourg just before the finals.

Uruguay had to qualify via the play-offs as they failed to qualify automatically.

Greece had to qualify via the play offs as they failed to qualify automatically.

England are totally useless, its a miracle they got 1 point out of 9 in the world cup.

Costa Rica qualified second in their qualifying group but did not win one single game out of 5 away from home and we are talking playing the likes of Jamaica and Panama.

[Giggs11]

Van Gaal tactical genius , not in this world cup he wasn't.

Against Mexico it wasn't a case of good subs but a case of picking the wrong team in the first place and he got very [very] lucky - 2 goals at the end of 90 minutes, one a very dubious penalty.

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round.

Little Costa Rica who beat Italy,Uruguay,Greece and drawing with England so went into the match unbeaten
And in the semi Cilessen keeps a clean sheet against Argentina so his confidence was really shot

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round.

LVG team managed 0 goals in 240 minutes of football in their quarter final and semi final matches [120 mins of those was against Costa Rica], with Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie in the starting lineup and with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay available to him, yet the tactical genius that some say Van Gaal is could not get that team with all those stellar forwards to score a single goal in all that time.

As others say you just talk utter tripe.

They are all poor sides:-
Italy had not won an international in 7 attempts before the world cup including a home draw against Luxembourg just before the finals.

Uruguay had to qualify via the play-offs as they failed to qualify automatically.

Greece had to qualify via the play offs as they failed to qualify automatically.

England are totally useless, its a miracle they got 1 point out of 9 in the world cup.

Costa Rica qualified second in their qualifying group but did not win one single game out of 5 away from home and we are talking playing the likes of Jamaica and Panama.

If you go by recent form then the only decent teams in the world at the moment are Germany and Colombia.

[thebillfella]

Van Gaal tactical genius , not in this world cup he wasn't. Most people disagree with your opinion

Against Mexico it wasn't a case of good subs but a case of picking the wrong team in the first place and he got very [very] lucky - 2 goals at the end of 90 minutes, one a very dubious penalty. Just a typical slightly more cautious last 16 tie where the heat was a significant factor throughout (more than most games as two cooling breaks were taken) and the Dutch struggled more as you would expect in those conditions. LvG team tactics were clearly adapted from the group stages to deal with those condtions to conserve energy in the heat and hit on the break, starting with a back 5 then moving to a 4-3-3 later on. They won. Tactics vindicated.

Against little Costa Rica he failed to use all his subs during nearly all of the 120 minutes and then subbed the goalie for the shoot out at the last second and in doing so undid his goalkeepers confidence for the next round. We've already covered this one. I'll be polite and say we'll agree to disagree shall we?

Against Argentina it did not look like De Jong was fit and he didn't last long considering the strong possibility of extra time in all knockout games, RVP didn't look that fit either, so picking De Jong in light of RVP was asking for trouble, the game duly went to penalties with LVG using all his subs this time [no surprise in the circumstances] so LVG ended up with a keeper who had never saved a penalty and who he had previously subbed off from facing a penalty shoot-out in the last round. De Jong probably wasn't fit, but there is no better player in the Dutch squad to do a man to man job on Messi, and while he was on the pitch De Jong did a top job of keeping Messi quiet; when Clasie replaced him he continued the good work with the added advantage of young fresh legs. The trouble was the legs of the rest of the team seemed to have gone and their tempo wasn't great. Cillessen has made 99 professional appearances in his whole career for club and country so it's a little early to be sensationalising the fact he has never saved a penalty. Does anyone know how many he has actually faced out of interest? Muslera and Mondragon have never saved a penalty in their careers - given their age labelling them would be a little more justified. Either way, the fact he had never saved a penalty before the world cup is not something LvG had any influence over

LVG team managed 0 goals in 240 minutes of football in their quarter final and semi final matches [120 mins of those was against Costa Rica], with Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie in the starting lineup and with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay available to him, yet the tactical genius that some say Van Gaal is could not get that team with all those stellar forwards to score a single goal in all that time. Oh well, you must be right then

I see LvG brought Vorm on for Cillessen last night for the last few minutes - the poor lad must be a broken man now and may well need councelling

[trampie]

If you go by recent form then the only decent teams in the world at the moment are Germany and Colombia.

And Holland and Argentina as well.

Germany and Holland in Europe were the best qualifiers in the continent they both won 9 drew 1 and lost 0 in qualifying and in South America Argentina was the top qualifier and Columbia was second.
Brazil had home advantage over Columbia in the finals and got past them by a single goal with Neymar in their team.
So for me tonights winner will be #1 the loser #2, Holland #3 [based on the world cup] and Columbia #4.

I'd be happy for tonights game to sort out 1st and 2nd, Columbia in fairness had lots of players missing including Falcao so they might well be better than Holland head to head both with full teams, if anything Holland achieved the minimum considering they have Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie as well as Kuyt and Blind not to mention players like Huntelaar and Depay that are often subs.

Spain have gone for now, they seemed to have aged overnight, they might well come again in time as their league is strong [as long as they don't over flood it with foreigners] and Brazil have disappointed, I hope they go back to sexy football and not this European rubbish they have been trying to play, they might well go back to their traditional game now as the ghost of 82 is laid, they went European after having the best team in 82 and they lost playing 'Brazilian football', they won in 94 playing European football which kept them on this path but now they have lost in 2014 trying to play Euro football so with any luck next time round it will be back to out skilling everyone else.

The world cup and title of #1 team at the mo as far as i'm concerned is up for grabs in tonight's final.

[Giggs11]

The mythical 82 side got beat in the quarters. They scored great goals but won fook all,even this shit side got further.

[trampie]

The mythical 82 side got beat in the quarters. They scored great goals but won fook all,even this shit side got further.

That is why Brazil play in a more European style now because of 82, because they lost a one off game against a team that they would beat 9 times out of 10 and that team won it.
Brazil threw their toys out of the pram saying why play nice football and lose, why not play like the Europeans and win, hence in 94 they played with a defensive midfielder called Dunga and won keeping 5 clean sheets in 7 games , scoring only 11 goals and conceding 3 and those figures included a 3-2 win over Holland.

Neutrals of a certain age love to see Brazil win because of their football, but in 94 it wasn't Brazil as fans knew them, Brazilians said football died in 82 and I agree with them, I just hope this 7-1 loss for Brazil in the semi's means they resort back to the type of football they played in 58, 70 and 82.

[mikeg13]

[quote="trampie"
That is why Brazil play in a more European style now because of 82, because they lost a one off game against a team that they would beat 9 times out of 10 and that team won it.
[/quote]

Not sure about that that Italian side was pretty good especially on the break, with quality in the finishing of any chance that came along, it exposed weakness in the way Brazil played, skill or no skill if other side has the ability to capitalize on any weakness it will win a game and for sure Italy had that in spades, could soak up pressure then go.

To me it will be interesting to see how new manager fits in at United, granted he has better chance than the last, but Fergy ghost still there. No question has credentials and dont think way he has handled International management will have any bearing on his style of club management, two very different things, in my view lot of things forced on him by situation, at least it shows very capable of thinking out side the box.
If had to bet on him, would think probably do well, but not a sure thing, interesting to see how he handles Rooney and will he be given the funds to buy who he wants, many United fans (not so much here) think Glaziers will just bankroll him I dont.

[RamR]

Only bias or a lack of much football knowledge would give you a different opinion for me. I also happen to believe that one poor season for a fragmented squad is being given too much weight, especially when you consider that the previous seasons painted a much different picture. We shall soon see exactly what LVG can get out of this squad of players...

I am only commenting on the strategy employed of substituting a keeper for penalties only and then the subsequent match where it didn't happen. I have made no comment on how a good a manager Van Gaal is or how he will do at United. In fact, I quite like when managers try things a little bit different or "think outside the box" if you like. All I have simply stated is that it is entirely possible that he wasn't as flawless in implementing this strategy as others seem to think. I'm not sure if the comment I quoted was aimed at me or not but if so I find it amazing that some can see it so black and white.

[SuperGrover]

the Dutch were always overrated.

What are you talking about?

The general consensus of people living in the Netherlands, before the tournament began, was they would be lucky if they managed to get out of the group. And if they did get out of the group, the expectation was they'd lose to Brazil in the next round (as it was expected they would finish 2nd in group and Brazil top of theirs)

The only people overrating the Dutch was anyone who knows nothing about Dutch football. The only surprise coming from the tournament is how well the defence have played. Aside from Vlaar it's a fairly inexperienced defensive unit with a number of young players with less than 15-20 caps.

The fact was the Dutch knew their best way of playing was on the break but the Argentinians did a great job of stopping that by playing so deep defensively. It made for a boring stalemate but the Dutch will still get a heroes welcome when they are back home.

I was speaking of post-Spain. That scoreline was inflated and made people look at the Dutch as legit contenders for the title. IMO they were never a legitimate threat.

[SuperGrover]

the Dutch were always overrated. Only 3-4 world class players among the group. No chance to win the WC.

Don't know about you, but pretty much every preview I read suggested the Dutch were in team in major decline, considerably inferior to 2010 and would be lucky to qualify from the group. The general consensus being Spain and Chile were superior teams. Which seems reasonable, take Robben and RVP out and it'd be hard to argue it's one of the stronger international squads.

Yet they were a penalty shootout away from being in the World Cup Final. You don't think that's a good achievement?

I clarified my always overrated note above. I agree they were not looked to do much pre-tourney, but that all changed due to the Spain score.

Sure, being a penalty shootout away from the final is a great achievement. However, they were extremely lucky with their knockout draw. They stole the game from Mexico after Herrera went extremely negative after taking the lead. After that they played Costa Rica, a team any legitimate WC title threat should have beaten. Then they played extremely negatively against Argentina and lost on penalties.

So, looking deeper, no, I don't think those three performances are all that exemplary.

[SuperGrover]

That the Dutch got to the semis is because of the LvG factor not in spite of him. I'm finding it more and more reassuring that you and some other none-Utd fans are finding it necessary to try to search for any LvG faults you can find - you are clearly concerned that LvG will have the same positive impact at Utd and are desperately trying to convince yourself and others that this won't happen.

When did I ever disparage LVG? I explicitly stated he was a great manager (and also a blowhard). I also clearly stated that the Dutch had little talent (especially with RVP shitting the bed after the group stage). It was really Robben, Kuyt, de Jong and Vlaar and nothing else. LVG deserves all the credit for rearranging his formation to completely surprise Spain.

As for Man U., who gives a flying eff about Man U? LVG is clearly better than Moyes, but that team has a long way to go before they can realistically compete for a title again. Personally though I don't give two shits what happens to Man U.

[SuperGrover]

I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.....if he doesn't bring on Krul in the quarter finals there was a really good chance the Dutch wouldn't have even made the semis.

Opinion based upon a statistical sample size too small to even discuss. It's quite possible the Dutch would have won no matter who took the penalties.

Whatever the case, the choice of penalty keeper will almost certainly no mean a damn thing when it comes to his future club success. Even if he has uncovered the secret to winning a shootout, the games in which Man U. will be involved in one will probably number in the single digits over the next 20 years. Irrelevant discussion.

[Giggs11]

Only bias or a lack of much football knowledge would give you a different opinion for me. I also happen to believe that one poor season for a fragmented squad is being given too much weight, especially when you consider that the previous seasons painted a much different picture. We shall soon see exactly what LVG can get out of this squad of players...

I am only commenting on the strategy employed of substituting a keeper for penalties only and then the subsequent match where it didn't happen. I have made no comment on how a good a manager Van Gaal is or how he will do at United. In fact, I quite like when managers try things a little bit different or "think outside the box" if you like. All I have simply stated is that it is entirely possible that he wasn't as flawless in implementing this strategy as others seem to think. I'm not sure if the comment I quoted was aimed at me or not but if so I find it amazing that some can see it so black and white.

No, it wasn't aimed at you. I was replying mainly to pouzers post. To be honest, what LVG did with that Dutch squad is black and white. He over achieved. FFS, Dirk Kuyt played...

[buu1333]

don't buy shot goalkeepers confidence because subs last game before for Pens. Costa Rica were disadvantage vs Dutch because Costa Rica had pens before that match. Do they go the same way or go weaker way ? Tim Krul went right way for each pen says alot. Then Dutch were at disadvantage v Argentina because Dutch just had pens last match. Both dutch keepers are rubbish at saving pens.