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Doping in sport

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unc.si.
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Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

It's a subject that fascinates me, and one that rears it's head on lots of different threads. It's something that's always existed. There will always be people that seek to cheat to gain an advantage, in sport as in many other walks of life, and as a form of cheating Doping has some unique characteristics, ie you can't spot a doper just by looking at them. It's covert cheating, not overt cheating like diving in football or dropping the scrum in rugby to name a couple of other examples.

Cycling, athletics, gridiron, baseball. All clearly sports with massive doping issues.

Other sports - football, tennis, rugby - far more denial. The old 'skill sport' chestnuts keep getting rolled out. The games governing bodies don't take it seriously - it's fine as long as no-one finds out. Fans of those sports just don't seem bothered.

If we just accept that cycling, athletics, XC skiing, swimming, Ice Hockey, American football, baseball etc have big doping issues, and look at say Football, tennis and rugby I'd be interested in peoples views on 3 questions:

1. do people think that these sports have a significant number (say >20%) of players that try and improve their performance by doping
2. do people think that doping is the biggest issue that those sports face: and
3. Do people think that the sports in question actually try to catch dopers and have the situation under control.

edit: sorry - q's a bit crappy - had had a few beers. Mainly just wondering how bothered people really are about doping in sport and how big a problem they see it is outside the 'traditional' endurance sports. Will put my thoughts below in a bit.
Last edited by unc.si. on 03 Mar 2014, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by RamR »

First of all, what are the criteria for a sport having a "big" doping issue?

In today's day and age where there is so much science behind nutrition and supplements for the athlete I think there is a lot of grey area for the modern athlete. That is to say, there isn't necessarily a leap into cheating as much as a subtle progression.

Anyway...

1. do people think that these sports have a significant number (say >20%) of players that try and improve their performance by doping

That's a tough question because not only is the percentage varied from sport to sport but so is the type and severity of cheating. I'm not sure I can answer this without more detail in the question.

2. do people think that doping is the biggest issue that those sports face:

I think doping is the biggest issue across all sports in general. More-so for the amateur youth athlete who thinks they have to do it to get to the top and subsequently put their lives at risk for what is likely a pipe dream anyway.

3. Do people think that the sports in question actually try to catch dopers and have the situation under control.

Whether the sports try to catch dopers or not may be irrelevant because they always seem to be behind in the technology. But, it does seem that most sports take a retroactive approach to this more for saving face once things begin to come to light.

The most important question might be whether the punishments handed out are appropriate.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by AkNotSpur »

Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Tennis - definitely an issue, if only because one of the sport's current icons and leading players looks decidedly dodgy and the fact that it's increasingly becoming a power game. Biggest problem - perhaps the modern surfaces cause too many injuries?

Rugby Union - even though 'gym' muscles are still no substitute for technique in many of the physical encounters, the bulk of most modern professional players suggests that there is a problem somewhere and an Australian Rugby League - type scandal is probably only just round the corner. Not the sport's biggest issue however - that's the rules, e.g. daft penalties for marginal technical infringements leading to points & the stupid sin-bin -drives me nuts.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by blahblah »

If we just accept that cycling, athletics, XC skiing, swimming, Ice Hockey, American football, baseball etc have big doping issues, and look at say Football, tennis and rugby I'd be interested in peoples views on 3 questions:

1. do people think that these sports have a significant number (say >20%) of players that try and improve their performance by doping
Yes, although I would quibble on the definition of significant.
In football I doubt it goes too far down the pyramid, and I doubt the British footballers know what Clubs are putting into them as they are quite thick as a rule.
I would expect it to be "popular" in a significant number of tennis players with aspirations of being top ten, or being in it. Most of the attention seems to be on the men's side with recoveries from knee injurie... however the women should be under focus as most are like machines who hit the ball hard, so PED's would be more beneficial?
Rugby: I would be surprised if they had all bulked up that big without something, and then there is the stamina needed to haul it around the pitches... I am not aware of the pressure to perform below the top level, but I would be shocked if it was clean.


2. do people think that doping is the biggest issue that those sports face:
Only if the sport want it to be, which depends on the public and through them TV and their advertisers.


3. Do people think that the sports in question actually try to catch dopers and have the situation under control.
The crux to this is the Promoters of a sport and its Regulators being the same people. This is why cycling didn't catch Armstrong unlike his rivals. Rightly or wrongly Armstrong was seen as their cash-cow and provided a life of Reilly (ho ho) for those at the top, not to mention children who could be Agents in the cash-rich world of cycling.

Why should FIFA try to catch and expose Messi, Ronaldo et al? It could trash a sport for very little benefit, unless people think the sport is riddled by PED's; and for people to think it is riddled then players have to be caught. It is a virtuous\vicious cycle of no-one gets caught so no one thinks it is an issue so there is no need to test so no-one gets caught..

Rather strangely, and worryingly, the Olympics is the best hope for sports that see them as important. The OCI does not promote individual sports and can insist and regulate Drug Testing by WADA. Unfortunately the OCI is hardly a trustworthy body and does it have the will to test all sports and wish tarnishing its brand?

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Re: Doping in sport

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For the record, my own thoughts are that doping is more prevalent in football, rugby and tennis than most people think (although I guess that many people think that rugby players bulk up with steroids). Tennis is almost a no-brainer and I think that a lot of the top players are on some sort of programme. The intensity of the game and fitness levels are IMO so high across the board that they can't just be explained away by 'better training'. Recovery from injury and the levels that players are at after injury breaks are also too good to be true (in some cases players come back from injury better than they were before, which is one of the key flags for a doping programme).

Football - probably less clear cut. Some teams I'm sure will be on team wide doping programmes. Fitness is a huge factor in being able to keep going for 90 minutes (and also in skill levels - motor skills do deteriorate with fatigue, so greater fitness actually helps you maintain skill levels for longer into the match without the late game mistakes creeping in). As AK says though, corruption is probably a bigger issue in football, although I think that doping is probably the biggest issue that Tennis faces.

IMO, football and Tennis authorities don't want to know. They just want to play lip service to WADA. As blah blah says, it's just not in their interests to have a doping scandal erupt, and the Puerto doping case in Spain demonstrated that the Spanish authorities were far keener to destroy the evidence than risk a scandal.

Doping actually makes good entertainment. Fitter, stronger athletes. Skill levels maintained at a higher level.

RamR makes a good point about 'fine lines' / 'Grey areas'.

Train at altitude - fine
Oxygen tent - bit iffy, but legal
Xenon tent - bit weird, bit iffy, legal
EPOr, - cheating
[the above 4 pretty much have the same effects, although synthetic EPO more so, in that you can push the envelope further)
Train at altitude - take blood out and keep it for later - cheating
Iron injections - fine
cortisone injections - iffy/illegal (depending on sport and 'medical need')
Testosterone patches - banned
Caffeine - fine
Pseudoephedrine - not fine

Suppose the motivation for this is to see how people feel. Is there a case to make certain sports a free for all? (no IMO, but some people disagree). Is doping OK in sports where pure endurance or strength are not the main success factor? Given that there are new doping products suspected to be on the market now that can't yet be detected (and there's the real possibility that Gene doping isn't far off, which would almost certainly be impossible to detect).

Are punters that bothered, as long as they can see a good match / game / race?

I still love watching a great bike race, even if I know that some of the riders are doping (I do believe it's just 'some' now rather than 'most', but also believe that 'some' isn't just 3 or 4% of them).

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by murf »

I thought zenon was illegal as it was an artificial way of boosting EPO

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by blahblah »

The problem is that the cheats are usually ahead of the catchers, which makes it a thankless task and the benefit is with those at the front of the science race. While some of the physiological benefits may be small and irrelevant they produce a psychological benefit which is more often relevant; although it is probably more true in individual sports than team ones.

In the old days there was a case for "let them all take what they like". However, they have now become too dangerous and sports have a responsibility for the participants, who can be seen as employees given the amount of cash in a lot of sports nowadays. I think that the only way things will change is if there is a list of deaths and near deaths of sports people who die young, either while participating or die prematurely after stopping. The amount of deaths and near deaths in cycling along with the tales of cyclists setting alarms to wake them up to exercise to thin their blood so they did not die must have had a role in the change of attitude.

Unfortunately, I think it takes special people to actually do the right thing to these typical questions (assuming they are at a suitably large Club, or tennis\cycling\XC Skiing coach etc):

What should be done with a prodigious talent, who is just too small to play professionally? Obey the PED restrictions or pump him full of all sorts to force his body to grow? Obviously there would be no risk of testing for years by which time the player would have grown.

What should be done with a prodigious talent who has insufficient stamina? Send him out running a lot etc, or pump him full of PED's before and during the stamina training?

A key player is injured with a key match\tournament coming up, but something illegal can be done in the knowledge that the player won't be tested - either because none or performed, or he can be kept off the list - use the illegal stuff or have the player miss the match\tournament?

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by Pincher »

Here's a good explanation of the real problem I feel:

http://timharford.com/2014/02/testing-t ... ug-cheats/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by forestfan »

Football - while it's clearly happening, I'm not sure it's materially affecting results at the top level and the sport perhaps has bigger problems - no reason not to get on top of it though.

Tennis - anecdotal evidence suggests it is an issue, with the marathon matches the top men rattle off a couple of days apart. Of course, a clampdown would seriously affect the product, whereas in cycling for example nobody cares if they all go up Alpe d'Huez a few minutes slower than Armstrong and Ullrich did... so will the authorities want to tarnish the "golden age" of the sport and allow it to revert to an ace-serving firing range?

Rugby - the increasing size of players does raise a question mark, even the scrum halves are often big units these days. Obviously it's all speculation though, whichever sport you talk about!

In terms of legalising/deregulating, a free for all would lead to sports stars killing themselves left, right and centre by pushing it to extremes, broadcasters and sponsors would depart overnight and it would become an underground freak show run and funded by the gamblers and fixers. But there could be a case in some sports to shift the balance from banning specific substances and shaming athletes as cheats, to just monitoring medical indicators and withdrawing competitors who don't comply... it's all about finding the right balance.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by Zimmerman »

Its intriguing that there is a general feeling that footballers arent doing it.

Why?

I suspect its mainly because we so very rarely hear about anything.
How strict are the drug tests they do in football? We know (as does Rio) that they give a fair bit of forewarning they are coming to test (although i suspect its stricter for tournaments)? Do they do tests after each match too?

What are they testing for?

All seems a bit too lax for me.


How many footballers are we actually aware of failing tests?
If we acknowledge the distances and speeds these guys perform at… and then to do so for 40, 50, 60 games a season - like with Unc's tennis assumption - how do they do it? Cant believe with so much pressure (and money) that the guys that are willing to throw themselves on the floor wouldnt take a little something if told it would help give them 5% more.

I seem to recall a bit of a furore around the dutch players.
There was someone else who came out about 'supplements' they were taking (was it an England player)?

But by and large, any failed tests are usually for recreational drugs.

The only 'doping' ones I can recall are Kolo Toure and Paddy Kenny (i think) and obviously Maradonna in 1994 (20 years ago)!

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by Zimmerman »

From Wiki:

So far, only one Premiership player has ever tested positive for using performance-enhancing drugs in a league match.

According to a statement of one of UK Sport's Independent Sampling Officers (ISO), "If a club knows in advance we're coming, and the club suspects one of their players, they keep him off training and his name doesn't appear on the list I am given".

In the 1999-2000 season, testers were present at just 32 of the 3,500-plus league games (thats 0.9% - although this info is now 14 years out of date?, taking samples from two players of each side. Compared to other sports in the UK, like cricket, cycling or athletics, footballers are far less likely to be tested.[12]

In July 2009, the FA was in talks with the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) over the FA's proposal to comply with the WADA international anti-doping code (as other UK sports such as rugby, golf and tennis have already done). The FA was at the time under pressure from organisations including UK sport and Sport England to comply with the code and to put forward the first 30 players of the English national football team for testing.[14]

The dispute was apparently to do with the rules surrounding footballers in the testing pool. Should footballers have drug testing on randomly selected days (so athletes must state their whereabouts for an hour every day) as in other WADA-compliant sports, or should testing merely take place each week at club training? See WADA whereabouts controversy.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

Pincher wrote:Here's a good explanation of the real problem I feel:

http://timharford.com/2014/02/testing-t ... ug-cheats/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good article. Has long been the issue that the sports governing bodies (who are in charge of testing) have no incentive to catch the cheats.

Makes a good point that doping doesn't damage sports, but doping scandals do. Sort of where I was coming from really - if fans are happy that the odd 'naughty boy' gets caught but there's no big issue then all's OK and the cash keeps rolling in. Given that scenario, does doping really matter. If the fans are happy then does anyone really care?

Take football. All the ingredients are there. Massive amounts of cash. Huge difference between success and failure, huge physical demands on players, very limited drug testing regime (ie virtually no chance of getting caught) and players that are prepared to cheat in far more obvious ways to get an advantage. The question really is that if players aren't doping then why not??

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Re: Doping in sport

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AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by forestfan »

tclist wrote:
AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.
Well I always suspected he took something recreational on a night out so wanted to dodge the test, but could have been more to it I guess...

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

forestfan wrote:
In terms of legalising/deregulating, a free for all would lead to sports stars killing themselves left, right and centre by pushing it to extremes, broadcasters and sponsors would depart overnight and it would become an underground freak show run and funded by the gamblers and fixers. But there could be a case in some sports to shift the balance from banning specific substances and shaming athletes as cheats, to just monitoring medical indicators and withdrawing competitors who don't comply... it's all about finding the right balance.
Interestingly the 'health check' approach has been used before (in cycling funnily enough - FF you may know this already as I think you follow cycling a bit?). Before there were tests for EPO, there was a limit on HCr levels in blood (50%), anyone with more than 50% HCr was suspended for 'health reasons'. The most famous victim of this was Marco Pantani, who was suspended mid Giro d'Italia (a race second only to the Tour de France in most people's eyes (apart from cyclists who know that the only races that really matter are in Belgium in April on the cobbles)). He was suspended on the Madonna di Campglio - something that he never really got over and which was a big part of his eventual tragic death from a cocaine OD. It certainly wasn't a benign compromise for Pantani.

Suppose the point I'm making is that yes, you can't just deregulate PED's but that the seemingly sensible approach (ie 'look - we can't detect doping that well and we know you're up to it, but go above certain limits that we know we can 100% check and you'll get busted') isn't necessarily the answer either. Teams used to use blood spinners to check HCr levels - all it really does is ensure 100% that everyone dopes to a certain level.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

One thing that also makes me think whether it really all matters:

Cycling has a major doping problem. Everyone knows that now. Most people suspected it for a long time. Those that have read Walsh / Balleter / Kimmage has known it for a pretty long time, and that includes most cycling fans.

Yet you still get half a million tifosi on the Mortirolo when the Giro hits the mountains, hundreds of thousands of fans lining the roads of the Alpe d'Huez, Galibier and Ventoux in the tour and pretty much the whole of Flanders on the roadside for Ronde Van Vlaanderen.

The only real conclusion to draw is that really, when it comes down to it, the punters (in theory the people who really matter) really just don't care.

and if they don't care in cycling, why would they care in a sport where the impact of doping us far more ambiguous, like football or tennis. It's really all just about entertainment. Punters don't care if the players are cheating, as long as they're entertained.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by tclist »

forestfan wrote:
tclist wrote:
AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.
Well I always suspected he took something recreational on a night out so wanted to dodge the test, but could have been more to it I guess...
Clubs carry out their own drug testing & it was rumored, repeat rumored, was the reason why Staam was sold?

Regarding Rio, if he dodged the test because he had used recreational drugs I doubt MU would have been so supportive but that just an opinion :wink:

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

Zimmerman wrote:From Wiki:

So far, only one Premiership player has ever tested positive for using performance-enhancing drugs in a league match.

According to a statement of one of UK Sport's Independent Sampling Officers (ISO), "If a club knows in advance we're coming, and the club suspects one of their players, they keep him off training and his name doesn't appear on the list I am given".

In the 1999-2000 season, testers were present at just 32 of the 3,500-plus league games (thats 0.9% - although this info is now 14 years out of date?, taking samples from two players of each side. Compared to other sports in the UK, like cricket, cycling or athletics, footballers are far less likely to be tested.[12]

In July 2009, the FA was in talks with the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) over the FA's proposal to comply with the WADA international anti-doping code (as other UK sports such as rugby, golf and tennis have already done). The FA was at the time under pressure from organisations including UK sport and Sport England to comply with the code and to put forward the first 30 players of the English national football team for testing.[14]

The dispute was apparently to do with the rules surrounding footballers in the testing pool. Should footballers have drug testing on randomly selected days (so athletes must state their whereabouts for an hour every day) as in other WADA-compliant sports, or should testing merely take place each week at club training? See WADA whereabouts controversy.
Think they've improved a bit Zimm, ie I think they've gone along with the whereabouts rule and also introduced a Bio Passport (as have tennis). Still a ridiculously small amount of proper testing done though, and very little transparency on the programme (ie number of samples actually tested for PEDS not simply analysed for the Bio passport). Football doesn't want a doping scandal

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

tclist wrote:
forestfan wrote:
tclist wrote:
AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.
Well I always suspected he took something recreational on a night out so wanted to dodge the test, but could have been more to it I guess...
Clubs carry out their own drug testing & it was rumored, repeat rumored, was the reason why Staam was sold?

Regarding Rio, if he dodged the test because he had used recreational drugs I doubt MU would have been so supportive but that just an opinion :wink:
I think if clubs took a hard line on recreational drugs then I might be with a chance of playing for ManU. I can't imagine that recreational drug testing is exactly rare in the premiership.

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by tclist »

unc.si. wrote:
tclist wrote:
forestfan wrote:
tclist wrote:
AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.
Well I always suspected he took something recreational on a night out so wanted to dodge the test, but could have been more to it I guess...
Clubs carry out their own drug testing & it was rumored, repeat rumored, was the reason why Staam was sold?

Regarding Rio, if he dodged the test because he had used recreational drugs I doubt MU would have been so supportive but that just an opinion :wink:
I think if clubs took a hard line on recreational drugs then I might be with a chance of playing for ManU. I can't imagine that recreational drug testing is exactly rare in the premiership.
Rio's case was over 10 years ago, Stam was sold 12 years ago, he was banned for 5 months while with Lazio, found using Nandrolone. Cubs have to test for recreational & any other drug & i'l assume these days that any player who takes recreational drugs will be aware how long it remains in the system? Dettori paid a high price for not knowing. :wink:

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by unc.si. »

tclist wrote:
unc.si. wrote:
tclist wrote:
forestfan wrote:
tclist wrote:
AkNotSpur wrote:Football - I don't see performance-enhancing doping as a big issue and it's probably under control. Gambling and match-fixing is a way bigger problem.

Performance-enhancing? Maybe not but illegal drugs used to speed up recovery etc. more likely?

Almost certainly driven by 'clubs' :arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a prime example of what I mean? Caught out by a random drug test.
Well I always suspected he took something recreational on a night out so wanted to dodge the test, but could have been more to it I guess...
Clubs carry out their own drug testing & it was rumored, repeat rumored, was the reason why Staam was sold?

Regarding Rio, if he dodged the test because he had used recreational drugs I doubt MU would have been so supportive but that just an opinion :wink:
I think if clubs took a hard line on recreational drugs then I might be with a chance of playing for ManU. I can't imagine that recreational drug testing is exactly rare in the premiership.
Rio's case was over 10 years ago, Stam was sold 12 years ago, he was banned for 5 months while with Lazio, found using Nandrolone. Cubs have to test for recreational & any other drug & i'l assume these days that any player who takes recreational drugs will be aware how long it remains in the system? Dettori paid a high price for not knowing. :wink:
I'm sure the clubs know how long it stays in the system as well.

Maybe I misunderstood - thought you were implying that players didn't do Charlie, not that they and the clubs didn't know how to not get caught playing with it :D

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Re: Doping in sport

Post by tclist »

unc.si. wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood - thought you were implying that players didn't do Charlie
No. :P

I've always assumed Rio did but I doubt it was recreational drugs behind him missing that random drug test? I remember he picked up an injury & it was speculated he'd be out for several weeks, he missed one match or so I think? I suspected the club used 'something' to speed up recovery & then came the random test & possibly the club 'told' him to skip the test?

Wrongly thought they could blag their way out maybe?

Though you'd have thought that someone at the club would have known that skipping the test would be classed as an admission of guilt?

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Re: Doping in sport

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OK - yes, doubt a bit of hash was behind the missed test.

He did pretty much get away with it though, although again yes I suspect the club thought they'd be able to get away with the excuse scot free.

Someone above made the point about recovery. That's one of the big uses of PED's. The ability to train harder for longer and to recover from injury faster, which is why the likes of Nadal (to pick an entirely random example) are able to miss chunks of time away from the testers with a knee injury and come back to win tournaments.

Most PED's don't help that much in competition (in isolation, apart maybe from transfusions), but they allow you to work that much harder OOC. One of the big fallacies about PED use is that they allow a shortcut to hard work. In actual fact it's almost the opposite - they allow you to work so much harder. Think it was Tyler Hamilton that said that taking EPO almost obliged you to work harder than before to justify the investment / risk.

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Re: Doping in sport

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unc.si. wrote:OK - yes, doubt a bit of hash was behind the missed test.

He did pretty much get away with it though, although again yes I suspect the club thought they'd be able to get away with the excuse scot free.

Someone above made the point about recovery.
Guilty, that was me :mrgreen:

I wouldn't say an 8 month ban was getting away with it but it could have been harsher, as Bosnich was banned for 9 months for using cocaine?

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Re: Doping in sport

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unc.si. wrote: Most PED's don't help that much in competition (in isolation, apart maybe from transfusions), but they allow you to work that much harder OOC. One of the big fallacies about PED use is that they allow a shortcut to hard work. In actual fact it's almost the opposite - they allow you to work so much harder. Think it was Tyler Hamilton that said that taking EPO almost obliged you to work harder than before to justify the investment / risk.
Yes, wasn't it something about not being able to walk, or only walking very slowly which pi55ed off his then wife?

I thought Rio missed the test as it would show an STD, and went AWOL until he could get in contact with his Urologist who told him it wouldn't show up.

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Re: Doping in sport

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blahblah wrote:
unc.si. wrote: Most PED's don't help that much in competition (in isolation, apart maybe from transfusions), but they allow you to work that much harder OOC. One of the big fallacies about PED use is that they allow a shortcut to hard work. In actual fact it's almost the opposite - they allow you to work so much harder. Think it was Tyler Hamilton that said that taking EPO almost obliged you to work harder than before to justify the investment / risk.
Yes, wasn't it something about not being able to walk, or only walking very slowly which pi55ed off his then wife?

I thought Rio missed the test as it would show an STD, and went AWOL until he could get in contact with his Urologist who told him it wouldn't show up.
Everyones entitled to an opinion but shouldn't common sense play apart? Rio was at the training ground, so, reasonable to assume he had in fact been training?

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Re: Doping in sport

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The bit about not being able to walk was in reference to Tyler Hamilton, talking about conserving as much energy as possible before a race (ie no stairs, no carrying shopping, which is what pissed his missus off), not Rio

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Re: Doping in sport

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unc.si. wrote:The bit about not being able to walk was in reference to Tyler Hamilton, talking about conserving as much energy as possible before a race (ie no stairs, no carrying shopping, which is what pissed his missus off), not Rio
:oops:

I'll switch off the light & shut the door on the way out :lol:

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Re: Doping in sport

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unc.si. wrote:The bit about not being able to walk was in reference to Tyler Hamilton, talking about conserving as much energy as possible before a race (ie no stairs, no carrying shopping, which is what pissed his missus off), not Rio
I remember a bit in Tyler's book about only being able to walk very slowly, if at all, during training periods at flat below LA's; ie the PED's meant he could train so hard that he could hardly walk.

If anyone hasn't read his book (The Secret Race) I can heartedly recommend it.

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Re: Doping in sport

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I see another until recently unknown Kenyan has broken the Marathon world record. Very impressive.

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