Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
- The Councillor
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Riveting to watch the cross examination......don't know how many dates left.......
- murf
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
For all the 'soap opera' I haven't seen any discussion of the proper evidence to date about gun angles etc. The media just care if he was crying......
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
I have been 'reliably' informed the cross examination of OP since weds is focusing on trying to prove a motive.....which I guess is based on on the Nel portraying OP as a narcissist...sp.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Aw bless, if you were too young to have lived through that oneliquidfootball2 wrote:Not too much doubt he's guilty, but I have read recently about an OJ Simpson getting off with blatantly murdering his girlfriend in America. (this was some decades ago)
Of course little relevance as a different country and a different legal system and this time a judge and not a jury decides as in Simpson's case, but it just shows you that sometimes you can get off despite all the evidence saying you undoubtedly did it.
The celebrity always has a better chance of getting off than some pikey from a council estate, which is why some\most of us would not be surprised if he walks (all puns intended).
Is there a fixed physical amount that can be cried in a day? (I sense he could set a World Record.)
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Final summing up today and tomorrow, sometimes I feel like I'm on trial following this
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Tacalabala wrote:Final summing up today and tomorrow, sometimes I feel like I'm on trial following this
jUST SHOOT HIM I SAY.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Verdict to be announced today. Judge is in court so maybe not long to go
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
I was awoken by this track on Kerrang radio this morning, about 7.15.
An omen?
An omen?
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Found Not Guilty of murder
- liquidfootball2
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
While the not guilty verdict on premeditated murder was always lilely the state could appeal the acquittal verdict on second degree murder.
Pistorius was absolved of a lesser murder charge that requires a different concept of intention, known by the legal term 'dolus eventualis', which holds you responsible for the foreseeable consequences of your actions.
"Clearly he did not subjectively foresee this as a possibility that he would kill the person behind the door - let alone the deceased - as he thought she was in the bedroom," she said.
Legal experts said the state might question this ruling.
"I think the verdict on premeditated murder is acceptable and well reasoned and not a surprise," said Stephen Tuson, a law professor at Johannesburg's University of Witwatersrand.
"However, on dolus eventualis, I think the state would arguably be able to appeal," he added.
Pistorius was absolved of a lesser murder charge that requires a different concept of intention, known by the legal term 'dolus eventualis', which holds you responsible for the foreseeable consequences of your actions.
"Clearly he did not subjectively foresee this as a possibility that he would kill the person behind the door - let alone the deceased - as he thought she was in the bedroom," she said.
Legal experts said the state might question this ruling.
"I think the verdict on premeditated murder is acceptable and well reasoned and not a surprise," said Stephen Tuson, a law professor at Johannesburg's University of Witwatersrand.
"However, on dolus eventualis, I think the state would arguably be able to appeal," he added.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Possibly an illustration that there would be far fewer convictions in criminal cases without juries as judges are likely to have stricter interpretations of the concept of 'beyond reasonable doubt'?
However, in this case it beggars belief that the judge doesn't believe that Pistorious could have forseen that he would kill the person behind the door.
Whether or not one believes that Pistorious thought that she was in the bedroom is more debatable.
However, in this case it beggars belief that the judge doesn't believe that Pistorious could have forseen that he would kill the person behind the door.
Whether or not one believes that Pistorious thought that she was in the bedroom is more debatable.
- barry
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
as soon as he went to get a gun, it's planned (in my opinion), what are are guns designed for? as for firing 4 shots into a small bathroom with someone trapped inside......
guilty as sin.
guilty as sin.
- Tacalabala
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
As I understand it, the logic behind it is that because he couldn't see the intruder, he therefore couldn't aim with any accuracy and therefore he is negligent rather than premeditated in his actions. Premeditation requires that one has the ability and conditions to carry out an action.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Of course Pistorious had the ability and conditions to carry out the act of killing - because that's precisely what he did (actus reus). The fact that he killed her isn't in doubt.Tacalabala wrote:As I understand it, the logic behind it is that because he couldn't see the intruder, he therefore couldn't aim with any accuracy and therefore he is negligent rather than premeditated in his actions. Premeditation requires that one has the ability and conditions to carry out an action.
The only really debatable question is whether he knew who was in the bathroom - because, to be guilty of murder, the prosecution has to prove - beyond reasonable doubt - that the accused intended (mens rea), by those actions, to kill the deceased person.
However, in my opinion it's very hard to come to the conclusion that he didn't want to kill whoever was in the bathroom. To say that wasn't a foreseeable consequence of his actions is risible.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Hard to shoot 4 bullets into a small room and not intend to kill someone you know was in there.
- liquidfootball2
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
South African legal experts were far from unanimous in agreeing with the verdicts, especially the acquittal on second degree murder.
Martin Hood, a Johannesburg-based attorney specialising in criminal firearms offences, said: "I'm disappointed and shocked. I think the judge has made some incorrect factual findings and applied the wrong legal tests. She should have found legal intent and found him guilty of murder. She's got it mixed up, unfortunately."
Hood claimed that every lawyer he had spoken to was in agreement. He added: "It sends out a very negative message that you can kill somebody, claim it was a mistake and get away with it. That not what we want in this country. We want to be hard on crime and intimate violence. It has created an extremely negative perception of the justice system."
Some observers felt the judge contradicted herself when, in finding Pistorius negligent, she said: "A reasonable person would have foreseen if he fired shots at the door, the person inside the toilet might be struck and might die as a result." This, according to critics, should constitute murder rather than culpable homicide.
“Masipa doesn’t accept that accused intended to kill anyone. Huh? His defence was he didn’t intend to UNLAWFULLY kill,” James Grant, a Wits University criminal law professor tweeted. He added: “How can you voluntarily fire four shots into a toilet cubicle & not foresee the possibility of killing whoever was in there.”
Martin Hood, a Johannesburg-based attorney specialising in criminal firearms offences, said: "I'm disappointed and shocked. I think the judge has made some incorrect factual findings and applied the wrong legal tests. She should have found legal intent and found him guilty of murder. She's got it mixed up, unfortunately."
Hood claimed that every lawyer he had spoken to was in agreement. He added: "It sends out a very negative message that you can kill somebody, claim it was a mistake and get away with it. That not what we want in this country. We want to be hard on crime and intimate violence. It has created an extremely negative perception of the justice system."
Some observers felt the judge contradicted herself when, in finding Pistorius negligent, she said: "A reasonable person would have foreseen if he fired shots at the door, the person inside the toilet might be struck and might die as a result." This, according to critics, should constitute murder rather than culpable homicide.
“Masipa doesn’t accept that accused intended to kill anyone. Huh? His defence was he didn’t intend to UNLAWFULLY kill,” James Grant, a Wits University criminal law professor tweeted. He added: “How can you voluntarily fire four shots into a toilet cubicle & not foresee the possibility of killing whoever was in there.”
- liquidfootball2
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
I think it's the second degree murder acquittal not the pre-meditated one that is by far the more surprising and arguably just wrong.Tacalabala wrote:As I understand it, the logic behind it is that because he couldn't see the intruder, he therefore couldn't aim with any accuracy and therefore he is negligent rather than premeditated in his actions. Premeditation requires that one has the ability and conditions to carry out an action.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Totally. The South African justice system has just shot it's self in the foot.barry wrote:as soon as he went to get a gun, it's planned (in my opinion), what are are guns designed for? as for firing 4 shots into a small bathroom with someone trapped inside......
guilty as sin.
No pun intended.
O.J. Simpsons gang has a new member.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Indications are that he will be found guilty of culpable homicide
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Was heavily flagged yesterday. Real question is what sentence he gets. If it's at the higher end of the scale there will be a reasonable feeling of justice, despite the verdict. If it's short or even non-custodial there will be a major outrage.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Sky's SA legal advisor on this case Llewellyn Curlewis feels a jail sentence unlikely and a non-custodial sentence probable which makes a state appeal and retrial at a higher court probable.
He also predicted this verdict as most likely back in March.
He also predicted this verdict as most likely back in March.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Watching the judge read bits out she doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Way out of her depth? Whole prosecution case has seemed the same.
Guilty as sin whatever the verdict. ...
Guilty as sin whatever the verdict. ...
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
What a total and utter bloody farce
So much like OJ Simpson case before it. Perhaps Pistorious will right a book about it and make millions ?
No closure for the family of Reeva Steenkamp
Wonder when he'll be back out whilst she is six feet under ? Whilst her family will continue to grieve.
Makes a complete mockery of the South African legal system and I thought our's was bad !
So much like OJ Simpson case before it. Perhaps Pistorious will right a book about it and make millions ?
No closure for the family of Reeva Steenkamp
Wonder when he'll be back out whilst she is six feet under ? Whilst her family will continue to grieve.
Makes a complete mockery of the South African legal system and I thought our's was bad !
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
If there is no jail sentence then it means a white man with money can murder without fear of jail.
He has to be jailed for at least 7 years and all his assets seized to pay for the case.
He has to be jailed for at least 7 years and all his assets seized to pay for the case.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Hard to agree with the judge that he couldn't have intended to kill when he fired the shots into the bathroom door.Surprised wrote:If there is no jail sentence then it means a white man with money can murder without fear of jail.
He has to be jailed for at least 7 years and all his assets seized to pay for the case.
However as things stand you have to think that Curlewis could be right and he'll avoid any jail time. He also said the more lenient the sentence the more likely the state will appeal the verdict which would result in a new trial at a higher court.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Sentencing is ongoing but they seem to be almost doing a retrial.
The defence is taking a pasting. They had a welfare officer who argued that Pistorius can't go to jail because they are too rough and that the authorities would take his legs. She cited a speech by a prison union official in 2008 she found on the internet and a phone call to a prison made recently.
She admitted she had no clue that no medical devices can be removed from a prisoner without permission of a doctor, or what the content of the Correctional Services Act was despite trying to use it as her defence.
She did not know who she spoke to at the prison or what their position was. She said she phoned and someone who answered told her the info.
The defence is taking a pasting. They had a welfare officer who argued that Pistorius can't go to jail because they are too rough and that the authorities would take his legs. She cited a speech by a prison union official in 2008 she found on the internet and a phone call to a prison made recently.
She admitted she had no clue that no medical devices can be removed from a prisoner without permission of a doctor, or what the content of the Correctional Services Act was despite trying to use it as her defence.
She did not know who she spoke to at the prison or what their position was. She said she phoned and someone who answered told her the info.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
Which will reduce to 10 months as only 1/6 of sentence is served before a parole hearing.
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Re: Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills girlfriend
7lb claimer wrote:Which will reduce to 10 months as only 1/6 of sentence is served before a parole hearing.
10 months before being considered for house arrest
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