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Rugby discussion

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Maldini
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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by Maldini » 17 Sep 2017, 08:48

Can the title be altered to Rugby Union discussion?

Very misleading.


I came on to talk about proper rugby and the thread is about a load of public schoolboys kicking the ball and playing 'all pile on' for eighty minutes. ;)

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by unc.si. » 25 Nov 2017, 23:05

Went to the pub for curry and rugby. Was supposed to be watching England Samoa but ended up watching Scotland stuff the Aussies 😄

Stayed to watch a fairly stuttering All Blacks performance against Wales.

The match did have probably one of the greatest individual defensive performances I’ve ever seen though. Stand up Sam Cane. Huge performance. If he wasn’t on the pitch I reckon Wales would have won

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 06 Oct 2018, 13:00

There's a huge game in the southern hemisphere's Rugby Championship in Pretoria this afternoon where South Africa take on the New Zealand, and for once it'll be the All Blacks looking for revenge.

South Africa are playing with a lot of confidence and after their two recent wins, their confidence levels will be even higher. So as the World Cup gets ever closer have the Sll Blacks lost any of their former untouchable aura?

Can South Africa really build on their momentous 34-36 victory in Wellington last month?

South Africa have drafted back row Francois Louw back into the team after an emergency call-up as one of three changes to face New Zealand.

Louw, 33, had gone back to play for Bath in the Premiership after featuring for the Springboks in their opening four matches of this year’s Rugby Championship.

Yet he has been recalled for the last game of the competition against the world champions after Warren Whiteley suffered a training-ground injury.

The other changes :-  Steven Kitshoff in for veteran Tendai Mtawarira at loosehead and Damian de Allende has overcome a shoulder injury and returns to centre in place of Andre Esterhuizen.

Crucially for New Zealand who have already clinched the championship title, Captain Kieran Read returns as coach Steve Hansen names his strongest available side.

There are three other changes from last Saturday's starting side with first-choice Aaron Smith returning at scrum-half, veteran Owen Franks back in the front row and Jack Goodhue getting the nod over Ryan Crotty at centre.

Crotty, TJ Perenara and Ofa Tuungafasi drop to the bench.

South Africa have proved that they do actually possess the firepower to beat the world champions, however for me the All Blacks must still be huge favourites, and even on South African soil, history is unlikely to repeat itself. 

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 06 Oct 2018, 17:55

RSA 30 NZ 18

8 mins left in Pretoria


All Blacks pressing, going to be very close

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 06 Oct 2018, 18:03

Amazing RSA 30 NZ 32

Came back from 30 - 13 late on with three tries

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 10 Nov 2018, 23:21

Were England robbed at Twickenham today?


The call went against Courtney Lawes for offside as he blocked a kick by TJ Perenara on the 10-metre line. At best, it looked a tight decision, too tight for the circumstances, and England had every right to feel aggrieved. The attacking team should surely have the benefit of any doubt. World Rugby had issued a directive only two days earlier instructing the referee to take the initiative on big decisions and use the TMO for guidance. Jerome Garces abrogated that responsibility. Matches should not be decided like this, on marginal interpretations. It was a gaffe.

I noted the TMO who made the call in the England New Zealand game was none other than our old South African friend Marius Jonker.

Is it just possibly the case that he could have been swayed just a tiny bit by an overwhelming feeling of real bitterness, especially considering how his own country's team lost out to a last minute controversy last week, and how they were so upset by a late TMO's decision going against them then?


The answer to that might rhyme with TESS


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ery-right/

Former World Cup final referee Jonothan Kaplan agrees..

If England were fortunate to be on the right side of a TMO decision last weekend they were desperately unlucky to have Sam Underhill’s match-winning try chalked off at Twickenham this time.

I was surprised TMO Marius Jonker penalised Courtney Lawes for offside ahead of his charge-down, and although I concede it is a close call I do not agree with his decision.

When looking at the incident we first need to work out whether there was an offside line. In previous years, as no English player was bound, there wouldn’t have been. But that law was changed in the wake of England’s ‘no ruck’ game with Italy, and law 14.10 states that any player over the ball constitutes an offside line.

What that means is that Lawes had to get onside and then be behind the hindmost body part of the tackle as there is no ruck.

Lawes clearly retires behind and in line with the rest of his team-mates before he strays marginally in front of them. However, the crux of the matter is whether the ball is out or not. If you watch the footage again you will see scrum-half TJ Perenara had his hands on the ball for some time before lifting it. That is crucial. To my mind, if the ball is no longer in the ruck and is not covered at all by other players - something I assessed by asking myself whether a bird could s*** on it from above - then it is out and available for all to play. Further illustrating the point, by touching it Perenara ensured it was fair game for anyone else to make a move, not least Lawes. The offside line is not relevant now, which to my mind makes this a fair try.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...g ... -overturn/

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by forestfan » 10 Nov 2018, 23:51

Surely not clear-cut enough to make that call. They have to go in favour of the attacking side in that scenario.

Still, idiotic play from England after that, throwing it out wide when Farrell was in position for a winning drop goal. Add to that earlier reluctance to get three points on the board, and Jamie George’s line-out throwing which suggested he had been replaced by his lookalike, GoT’s Samwell Tarly... I know, we’d have probably taken 1 out of 2 from the last couple of weeks, given injuries and recent form, but this was a real missed opportunity.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Nov 2018, 00:22

Good post Forest agree entirely on the missed chances, going wide instead of a drop and turning down points was criminal.

Apparently Dylan Hartley had been struggling with a finger injury all week and had to be replaced at half time.

Deciding in consultation with your targets and then calling the type of throw and throwing prescisely and accurately and with the right pace and projectory so that it coordinates exactly with your best line-out specialists being lifted is a huge part of the hookers game.

George may be better in the loose and the flashier more dynamic hooker although Hartley is no mean performer in that facet either, but there is no comparison when it comes to throwing in at the line-out.

The set-piece and especially the line-out is such a crucial part of the game, that it is the ability to throw to order at the line-out that has kept Dylan Hartley as England's number two (hooker) ahead of Jamie George for so long.

The Lions may have taken George but England have always valued Hartley's ability to throw at the line out more accurately

Hartley going off (enforced early absence) was a massive turning piont

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by forestfan » 11 Nov 2018, 09:19

If you’re struggling and consistently getting your line-out throws picked off then you go short, go safe, surely. He kept targeting Itoje when his opposite number was disrupting every single one.

They seemed to think they needed to do something different to beat the All Blacks, rather than just keep it simple and accumulate points, as you would against anyone else.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Nov 2018, 09:56

He's just not as accurate, there are major disadvantages to just going short.

Firstly it can be a predictable plan that's just indicative of a poor thrower and easily defended against, it has to be a surprise move, so you would only do it as part of a variation as it would become predictable, but far more importantly, doing it more than that stops any planned moves off the middle of the line-out which are coordinated with the ball quickly being spun out to an attacking back line to execute their moves with the opposition forwards largely taken out of the game, as they are all still near the line-out. These are precisely those moves which have been practiced in training all week and are therefore preplanned and well rehearsed.

An accurate thrower who can throw long straight and accurately, consistently hitting his targets is a huge weapon, Hartley does that more than most, George isn't as good but had a bad day too.

If you are even slightly off, then a really good lineout jumper like Retallick will pick you off and win the ball or disrupt your own ball so badly that it's not clean and therefore difficult to use. George was unfortunate to be slightly off and have Retalkick in opposition. Hartley had been accurate enough for England to win good ball anyway.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by forestfan » 11 Nov 2018, 10:03

Yeah, but once you start losing them, if you don’t/can’t change your hooker then you have to cut your losses and go short, rather than just handing the ball back to the opposition? You can’t score points if you don’t have the ball. He should have recognised that Retallick was on fire and not thrown anywhere near him.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Nov 2018, 10:28

Yes I would accept that's better than losing the ball but Jamie obviously kept thinking he'd improve enough to be able to hit his targets. It severely restricts your options going short and would mean a far more forward dominated second phase with the vastly more experienced and fiercely formidable all black pack probably all over our much weakened injury ravaged one.

If we were to win we had to try and give our backs their best chance too, and taking the opposition forwards out of the equation via the lineout with quick ball spun out to them was very much part of the plan.

In hindsight as George kept throwing it away, although Retallick can pick off ball not really intended for his opposite number anyway, such is the precision needed, George would have been better going for the lesser evil as it were, not a great tactic and certainly unlikely to be a winning one, but better than losing the ball.

He thought he could execute our plans better and would get it right this time, he couldn't but then that's sport and no hindsight. Hartley is just crucial to England's attacking plan for the lineout, George is far more dynamic in the loose and can be quickly up to the play the ball action after a man is tackled, he runs well with the ball too, just his throwing can be off at times.

Tbf this injury ravaged England side has done absolutely brilliantly, noone really gave them much of a chance at all, so many key men out too, almost fifteen or sixteen injured. To beat South Africa and come within a hares breath of beating the heavily odds on favourites bodes well for when they get back to full strength again.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 11 Nov 2018, 10:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by forestfan » 11 Nov 2018, 10:33

Yeah, certainly a big step up from the disastrous Six Nations and failure in South Africa over the summer. Although you could say if we can’t beat the All Blacks when conditions favour us like yesterday, it’s unlikely at any other time... but they have to have an off day sometime, and they’ve had a few more than usual this year.

In terms of where we stand, we’re back to contesting the #2 ranking with South Africa and Ireland, at least. Eddie Jones must know better than anyone how to avoid the Japan banana skin, then there’s the demoralised Wobblies to finish with, so hopefully we will finish 3-1 on the autumn which won’t be bad at all considering the issues, a bit of momentum to take into next year.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 11 Nov 2018, 11:13

forestfan wrote:
11 Nov 2018, 10:33
Yeah, certainly a big step up from the disastrous Six Nations and failure in South Africa over the summer. Although you could say if we can’t beat the All Blacks when conditions favour us like yesterday, it’s unlikely at any other time... but they have to have an off day sometime, and they’ve had a few more than usual this year.

In terms of where we stand, we’re back to contesting the #2 ranking with South Africa and Ireland, at least. Eddie Jones must know better than anyone how to avoid the Japan banana skin, then there’s the demoralised Wobblies to finish with, so hopefully we will finish 3-1 on the autumn which won’t be bad at all considering the issues, a bit of momentum to take into next year.
The main plus for me is to compete with so many injuries, not just the normal amount but a huge debilitating number, we have so many players to pick from and in that way are fortunate, but as in other sports when you make wholesale changes to any team, and even if the substitutes are decent, it just doesn't work, too many all at once is usually fatal.

Somehow Eddie Jones has had his scratch side performing beyond all expectations, it's far, far better getting it right now than on last summer's tour. The disadvantage of playing at altitude, something that hits many sides and can have a detrimental effect, isn't too relevant going forward anyway.

If I remember correctly wasn't there a pattern in South Africa of England starting off playing well and South Africa coming back strongly? If so then this is often the case especially at altitude which South Africa usually fully exploit. NZ franchise sides often hit that same wall when they go to South Africa too, the atmosphere is so much thinner and you can't get your breath easily or recover quickly. England also tour right at the end of a very long domestic season with no real break after the finals and so perenially suffer from a very high number of player withdrawals. Tbh you can hardly blame them, they want a break after a long season and the World Cup is next year not this. As a result of the intensity of the schedule, international and domestic, there are naturally a high number of injury casualties, something that seems to have gone into overdrive recently.

Last seasons Six Nations was very poor indeed from England when that long record breaking and fine unbeaten run came crashing to a halt. They seemed to completely lose their way and serious doubts over the sustainability of Jones hard training sessions and preparation, so successful for so long up to this point, came under mighty scrutiny, this for me was the really worrying time rather than the later South African tour, in which at times they did show signs of recovery. They won the last test and with last week's win had made it two in a row vs the Springboks.

It's far better for it all to start coming right again now, even with so many still to come back in, some of these green replacements may have done well enough to contend for places too or at least be pressing for places in the squad, these are better times and better problems to have.

You can spin your conclusion both ways...

"Although you could say if we can’t beat the All Blacks when conditions favour us like yesterday, it’s unlikely at any other time"

OR

You could say that the All Blacks won't or are hugely unlikely to play such a badly injury depleted or scratch England side next time when it really matters...if they can just scape a win now when conditions so favour them like yesterday, it’s unlikely at any other time

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by unc.si. » 17 Nov 2018, 21:56

I hear that the next Marvel movie is going to be about Peter O'Mahony.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by liquidfootball2 » 17 Nov 2018, 23:11

I really think that air of All Black invincibility has slipped badly.

They drew a home series against the Lions and with home advantage which is admittedly so crucial in Union, but have now looked thoroughly unconvincing in scraping past a much weakened England side without sixteen players and followed it up by losing to a very good Irish team who are themselves now laying claim to the All Blacks number one ranking.

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Re: Rugby discussion

Post by forestfan » 17 Nov 2018, 23:48

Ireland are really overdue a good World Cup, they’ve never even made the last four... final chance for the likes of Sexton, Best, Kearney and Murray next year, they have to make it count. Nobody will look forward to facing them, that’s for certain.

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